Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[GreenGoo]

Still loving mine.

Excellent. Pricing isn't great here, but at least there is a selection now, I don't need to order and just accept whatever arrives from the factory.

I need to check out Kia and Hyundai, then I'll make my decision. Possibly this Saturday. Well, I'll decide. Then my wife will override it. But in the time in between I'll feel like a bigshot.

[GreenGoo]

re: Mustang-E

That screen is 'UGE!

[Pyperkub]

Oh dear lord does GM's latest spyware-on-wheels effort sound like a nightmare:

I’m not quite sure what to say here. The Blazer EV at least didn't catch fire and burn to the ground, but it did not pass the real-world test we had planned.

It’s not clear if the Blazer EV’s failure lies with the car itself, or the charging station; in the eyes of the average customer Chevrolet is trying to reach here, that distinction may not matter much. ...

...it's no secret the Ultium platform's launch isn't going all that hot. For starters, there are very few of any of these cars on the roads, but the ones that are on the road seem to be plagued with problems. There's a whole bugs and quibbles thread on the Cadillac Lyriq forum that is approaching 100 pages. TFL's GMC Hummer EV bricked while off-road, necessitating a tow back home. Would the Blazer EV follow in the footsteps of those two cars? If my experience is anything to go by, then the answer unfortunately might just be yes.

[stessier]

Oh dear lord does GM's latest spyware-on-wheels effort sound like a nightmare:

I’m not quite sure what to say here. The Blazer EV at least didn't catch fire and burn to the ground, but it did not pass the real-world test we had planned.

It’s not clear if the Blazer EV’s failure lies with the car itself, or the charging station; in the eyes of the average customer Chevrolet is trying to reach here, that distinction may not matter much. ...

...it's no secret the Ultium platform's launch isn't going all that hot. For starters, there are very few of any of these cars on the roads, but the ones that are on the road seem to be plagued with problems. There's a whole bugs and quibbles thread on the Cadillac Lyriq forum that is approaching 100 pages. TFL's GMC Hummer EV bricked while off-road, necessitating a tow back home. Would the Blazer EV follow in the footsteps of those two cars? If my experience is anything to go by, then the answer unfortunately might just be yes.

This article is 6 months old. Here is an update published by ArsTechnica today.

[Pyperkub]

Oh dear lord does GM's latest spyware-on-wheels effort sound like a nightmare:

I’m not quite sure what to say here. The Blazer EV at least didn't catch fire and burn to the ground, but it did not pass the real-world test we had planned.

It’s not clear if the Blazer EV’s failure lies with the car itself, or the charging station; in the eyes of the average customer Chevrolet is trying to reach here, that distinction may not matter much. ...

...it's no secret the Ultium platform's launch isn't going all that hot. For starters, there are very few of any of these cars on the roads, but the ones that are on the road seem to be plagued with problems. There's a whole bugs and quibbles thread on the Cadillac Lyriq forum that is approaching 100 pages. TFL's GMC Hummer EV bricked while off-road, necessitating a tow back home. Would the Blazer EV follow in the footsteps of those two cars? If my experience is anything to go by, then the answer unfortunately might just be yes.

This article is 6 months old. Here is an update published by ArsTechnica today.

I actually pulled that link *from * the Ars article .

[stessier]

Ok, but I wouldn't say it represents the state of the platform today.

[Pyperkub]

But I also find that ars review is completely lacking. They (and ALL car reviewers) need to be harping on how new cars are essentially software as a service, and include both how much you need to pay to subscribe to your car, and privacy reports, and how well the car works/doesn't work when you don't subscribe and/or attempt to disable as much data collection as possible.

Modern cars (not just EV's) are a privacy nightmare.

According to Mozilla research, popular global brands — including BMW, Ford, Toyota, Tesla, Kia, and Subaru — can collect deeply personal data such as sexual activity, immigration status, race, facial expressions, weight, health and genetic information, and where you drive. Researchers found data is being gathered by sensors, microphones, cameras, and the phones and devices drivers connect to their cars, as well as by car apps, company websites, dealerships, and vehicle telematics. Brands can then share or sell this data to third parties.

[stessier]

Vehicles as a Service is pretty much all that article was about. It highlighted that the software works great if you subscribe to the predetermined services but is a horrible experience if you try to go through your phone.

As for wanting privacy reports, good luck with that. It's going require legislation to get movement there.

[LordMortis]

Before I click through, do they give options for new cars without vehicles as a service or at least to a lesser extent? Vehicle as spyware/service that can brick or at the very least demand a lot more money to maintain has been a growing concern of mine and my 2009 Focus is getting long in the tooth. It's been overdue for replacement for a couple of years now, but I'm barely driving and for one reason or another have been tied very closely to home since 2020. Eventually, that circumstance will change and I will want a reliable car, quite possibly this year.

It's one thing for loyalty discounts to sell a small scope of my information or even for free services like google to treat me as a product. It's quite another to pay figures for something and then need to give up my privacy and get tied into obsolescence maintenance for that price.

[Kurth]

Considering a new or slightly used car for our youngest son to drive. He's currently driving all over the place in my 2018 Chevy Traverse, which gets something like 17 miles a gallon in the city. As a new driver who is really enjoying having his license and driving, this is not economical.

I was thinking of going with an electric for him, but I know his tendencies, and I think he may not be as good about keeping it charged as he should. As an alternative, any thoughts on a really efficient hybrid? I was shocked to see that for ~$25K, I could get a Hyundai Elantra Hybrid which reportedly gets 51 City/58 Hwy/54 Combined MPG.

That seems like ridiculously good gas mileage at a pretty affordable price. Thoughts?

[Zaxxon]

Not likely to surprise you, but I'd get him a used electric. I'm assuming you have at least an outlet available where he parks at your house. You can pretty easily get a full electric with 200+ miles of range for that price.

[TheMix]

We haven't put many miles on our new Hyundai Tucson Hybrid, but so far there aren't any complaints. Apparently it can take a while for the car to start getting the listed mileage, but it is kind of fun to watch the average creep upwards.

That said, if he drives aggressively (our hybrid comes with a "sport" mode that increases performance at the cost of mileage), then I'd expect lower averages due to higher gas usage.

[The Meal]

This mechanical engineer buys the argument that hybrids have two separate systems for which a failure in either would be a big deal. The dad in me thinks that providing an item for which the consequences of past actions limit future opportunities is a dandy lesson device. The consumer in me says that used EV prices are a buyer's market.

Best luck!

[Blackhawk]

I was thinking of going with an electric for him, but I know his tendencies, and I think he may not be as good about keeping it charged as he should.

...

Thoughts?

My thought is that running out of juice and being stuck for a few hours might adjust his tendencies.

[Kurth]

I was thinking of going with an electric for him, but I know his tendencies, and I think he may not be as good about keeping it charged as he should.

...

Thoughts?

My thought is that running out of juice and being stuck for a few hours might adjust his tendencies.

One would hope. But from past experience, I know it's just going to result in late night calls to me to come pick him up!

[Blackhawk]

I was thinking of going with an electric for him, but I know his tendencies, and I think he may not be as good about keeping it charged as he should.

...

Thoughts?

My thought is that running out of juice and being stuck for a few hours might adjust his tendencies.

One would hope. But from past experience, I know it's just going to result in late night calls to me to come pick him up!

Sorry, I converted my car to solar earlier. You'll have to wait until morning.

[Kurth]

I was thinking of going with an electric for him, but I know his tendencies, and I think he may not be as good about keeping it charged as he should.

...

Thoughts?

My thought is that running out of juice and being stuck for a few hours might adjust his tendencies.

One would hope. But from past experience, I know it's just going to result in late night calls to me to come pick him up!

Sorry, I converted my car to solar earlier. You'll have to wait until morning.

Love it!

[Carpet_pissr]

So with two hybrids currently in our stable, I’ve decided to finally plunge into an all electric for our next car. And the winner is:

Kia EV9

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/kia-ev ... -best.html

A bit spendy for the one or two below the top trim that I want (horribly named ‘Land’) but lots of credits and rebates gets the price way down off MSRP.

I’m ready!

[Zaxxon]

Awesome! I've got my eye on the EV9 as one option to eventually replace our now-5-year-old X at some point (the other leading contenders being another X or a Rivian R1S). Will be very interested to hear your thoughts once you have it.

[disarm]

We haven't gone full EV yet, but my wife just got a new Kia Sportage Hybrid and it's a really nice car...looks sharp, drives nice and pretty much every bit of tech you can imagine for $38k. I'm sure you'll be very happy with the EV9.

[Kurth]

Possible change in plans: Rather than trading in my wife’s car (a newer Honda CR-V), we might let our son drive that and trade in my older Chevy Traverse for something new for us. I’d need something big enough to (1) fit a couple dog crates in the back; (2) move kids and all their stuff in and out of college and also (3) to haul modest amounts of lumber from Home Depot - would love to be able to fit a half sheet of plywood (4’X4’), but could live with something big enough to throw some 8’ two by fours in the back. These are all the things the Traverse does really well, at the expense of getting 17 MPG.

Thoughts on the best electric or hybrid options to meet those needs? I see a bunch of hybrid SUVs, but I’m not bowled over by the MPG they are getting. Seems like they are hitting at high-20s or low 30s, which doesn’t seem that impressive. On the electric side, the only one I’m seeing that looks really nice is the Rivian R1S, and I’ve scheduled a demo drive in a couple weeks to check it out. It seems like it has the hauling capacity, and the range is decent with the expanded battery pack. It’s also appears to be on the more refined/stylish/luxury side of things, which might be helpful given that I’ll be sharing it with my wife and need her to buy in. But, man, the price tag is steep: When I priced one out, it was approaching $90K! I’ve never paid anything like that for a car and never imagined I would . . .

[Edited to add: Would also consider a Tesla despite my loathing for Elon, but I’m not sure if either the X or the Y would have enough storage capacity for us. The attractive thing about the Tesla compared to the Rivian is (1) the ease of the Tesla charging network, and (2) what appears to be the significantly reduced price of the Tesla models.]

[Zaxxon]

We're checking out the R1S today! Also highly recommend the X.

[Carpet_pissr]

Possible change in plans: Rather than trading in my wife’s car (a newer Honda CR-V), we might let our son drive that and trade in my older Chevy Traverse for something new for us. I’d need something big enough to (1) fit a couple dog crates in the back; (2) move kids and all their stuff in and out of college and also (3) to haul modest amounts of lumber from Home Depot - would love to be able to fit a half sheet of plywood (4’X4’), but could live with something big enough to throw some 8’ two by fours in the back. These are all the things the Traverse does really well, at the expense of getting 17 MPG.

Thoughts on the best electric or hybrid options to meet those needs? I see a bunch of hybrid SUVs, but I’m not bowled over by the MPG they are getting. Seems like they are hitting at high-20s or low 30s, which doesn’t seem that impressive. On the electric side, the only one I’m seeing that looks really nice is the Rivian R1S, and I’ve scheduled a demo drive in a couple weeks to check it out. It seems like it has the hauling capacity, and the range is decent with the expanded battery pack. It’s also appears to be on the more refined/stylish/luxury side of things, which might be helpful given that I’ll be sharing it with my wife and need her to buy in. But, man, the price tag is steep: When I priced one out, it was approaching $90K! I’ve never paid anything like that for a car and never imagined I would . . .

[Edited to add: Would also consider a Tesla despite my loathing for Elon, but I’m not sure if either the X or the Y would have enough storage capacity for us. The attractive thing about the Tesla compared to the Rivian is (1) the ease of the Tesla charging network, and (2) what appears to be the significantly reduced price of the Tesla models.]

Did you see my post above about the EV9?

Lots of comparisons out there between the very few in the class (3 row, full size EV SUV) - basically EV9, Rivian, and Tesla.

[Kurth]

Possible change in plans: Rather than trading in my wife’s car (a newer Honda CR-V), we might let our son drive that and trade in my older Chevy Traverse for something new for us. I’d need something big enough to (1) fit a couple dog crates in the back; (2) move kids and all their stuff in and out of college and also (3) to haul modest amounts of lumber from Home Depot - would love to be able to fit a half sheet of plywood (4’X4’), but could live with something big enough to throw some 8’ two by fours in the back. These are all the things the Traverse does really well, at the expense of getting 17 MPG.

Thoughts on the best electric or hybrid options to meet those needs? I see a bunch of hybrid SUVs, but I’m not bowled over by the MPG they are getting. Seems like they are hitting at high-20s or low 30s, which doesn’t seem that impressive. On the electric side, the only one I’m seeing that looks really nice is the Rivian R1S, and I’ve scheduled a demo drive in a couple weeks to check it out. It seems like it has the hauling capacity, and the range is decent with the expanded battery pack. It’s also appears to be on the more refined/stylish/luxury side of things, which might be helpful given that I’ll be sharing it with my wife and need her to buy in. But, man, the price tag is steep: When I priced one out, it was approaching $90K! I’ve never paid anything like that for a car and never imagined I would . . .

[Edited to add: Would also consider a Tesla despite my loathing for Elon, but I’m not sure if either the X or the Y would have enough storage capacity for us. The attractive thing about the Tesla compared to the Rivian is (1) the ease of the Tesla charging network, and (2) what appears to be the significantly reduced price of the Tesla models.]

Did you see my post above about the EV9?

Lots of comparisons out there between the very few in the class (3 row, full size EV SUV) - basically EV9, Rivian, and Tesla.

Yep. Checking it out now. Looks nice and seems to have plenty of storage capacity. But that price tag is pretty steep, too: The one I just configured online (Land, AWD) came out at just under $72K.

I may just have to recalibrate my thoughts on car prices!

[stessier]

F150 Lightening?

[Zaxxon]

Checked out the R1S and the EV9 Wind today. Liked the Rivian, more storage in the frunk than the X, less in back.

EV9 had waaaayyy less storage. Frunk is a joke and the back is also small. And we had to turn it on and off! The horror. Much cheaper, though.

Overall the wife and I are still leaning X, but could see ourselves in the Rivian.

[Kurth]

Checked out the R1S and the EV9 Wind today. Liked the Rivian, more storage in the frunk than the X, less in back.

EV9 had waaaayyy less storage. Frunk is a joke and the back is also small. And we had to turn it on and off! The horror. Much cheaper, though.

Overall the wife and I are still leaning X, but could see ourselves in the Rivian.

Between the X and the R1S, what’s the price difference you’re seeing?

[Zaxxon]

The way we'd configure them, the Tesla is very slightly cheaper. Both would be mid-$80s.

[disarm]

F150 Lightening?

I looked into this before getting my gas-guzzling Ram 1500 and discovered that they get expensive very quickly if you want anything other than the low-end trim levels. That pretty much holds true for any truck though, gas or electric. My ’24 Ram 1500 Limited is the most expensive vehicle I've owned, but also a strong contender for the nicest despite being a truck.

[Kurth]

F150 Lightening?

If I were just buying for me, the F150 Lightening would definitely be in the running. But with the new job I'm starting in 2 weeks, both my wife and I will be remote workers, so we're planning on sharing one vehicle. And there's no way I'm getting her to sign on to a truck, unfortunately.

[Kurth]

Test drove a Tesla X and a Y today. My wife liked the Y much better than the X. Her chief complaints about the X were the falcon doors and the “bubble-like” nature of the interior. I think the doors are cool, but she says they’re a dealbreaker for her after watching that Silicon Valley episode where Richard Hanneman went off about billionaires and their cars with doors that open like this. On the interior, she said the glass roof in the front made her feel like she was in a bubble, like a car from the Jetsons.

I didn’t mind the Y, but I’m not sure either one has the utility storage I’m looking for.

Also, why does Tesla have to change everything about cars? It feels like they’ve reengineered shit just for the sake of reengineering shit. Like, is it really an improvement to have buttons on the steering wheel you press to activate your turn signals? How is that an improvement over the way turn signals have worked in the past? With the strange exception of the turn signal buttons, I’m also concerned about the lack of physical buttons everywhere else. It’s like Elon issued a command to eliminate as many physical buttons as possible. I get it’s futuristic and techy and all, but do I really want to be futzing with voice commands or fumbling with a massive touch screen while I’m driving?

I’m sure there’s a learning curve, and things would start to come naturally with time, but I imagine myself having to pull over by the side of the road to navigate through menus to find features that I’d be able to operate immediately in almost any other car. Just not sure what the point is.

[Zaxxon]

The interior is definitely something you love or hate. Funnily enough, my initial reaction in the Rivian was that the interface is much more complicated than the Tesla, even though it's probably much simpler than most manufacturers these days.

Also worth noting that the Tesla will handle most things that you're not doing via the steering wheel via voice commands. It's really just not a big deal once you've had a day or two to adjust. But I totally get the feeling, and I agree that they'd likely have wound up with a better product if they dialed back the minimalism just one or two small steps.

As for the doors, this likely won't sway your wife, but my wife initially was ambivalent on the functionality but hated the attention. Five years later and she lists the doors as one of her top features she doesn't want to give up. We've had zero problems with ours in five years, and they really do make getting in/out of the back a breeze. Was a godsend when we still had car seats. The windshield is amazing when road-tripping through the mountains--you don't get that view in any other vehicle.

[Kurth]

Zaxxon, any other impressions from you R1S test drive? Things we should keep an eye out for when we drive on in a couple weeks?

I've been watching lots of reviews on YouTube, and it seems like they are overwhelmingly positive with a few common negatives:

(1) Using the 3rd party charging networks sucks. Makes roadtripping in anything not a Tesla a huge headache. But I think this complaint may be mitigated by now if you have the NACS adaptor and can charge at Tesla superchargers, right?

(2) Software issues (bugs) that required servicing, but service center appointments were running 3 month wait times. Not sure if this is still an issue, though, as these complaints mainly came from older reviews and reviews of the R1T.

(3) Slight build quality issues with panel alignment and with alignment of the charge port door.

(4) Road noise issues. Not terrible, but more noticeable than some reviewers thought appropriate for such an expensive vehicle.

(5) Repair costs: A number of reviewers complained of exorbitant costs to repair small dents and dings. One cited a small dent in the bumper caused by backing into a tree. He contacted Rivian who told him to only get it repaired at an authorized Rivian shop. They quoted him just under $20K to fix the dent. Not sure if that's a one off, but if not, it would be concerning.

[Zaxxon]

Zaxxon, any other impressions from you R1S test drive? Things we should keep an eye out for when we drive on in a couple weeks?

Comments below...

I've been watching lots of reviews on YouTube, and it seems like they are overwhelmingly positive with a few common negatives:

(1) Using the 3rd party charging networks sucks. Makes roadtripping in anything not a Tesla a huge headache. But I think this complaint may be mitigated by now if you have the NACS adaptor and can charge at Tesla superchargers, right?

In general, yes, the non-Tesla networks have worse experiences. But often they're fine. Just as with Tesla, most of what you hear is overblown. The other networks have significantly lower uptime and significantly higher incidences of full/backed-up stations. But it's still a small percentage of stations, a small percentage of the time.

Yes, once you have the NACS adapter, you can use any Tesla V3 station (which is most of them at this point, but the older 120kW/145kW stations are not compatible with anything but Teslas). If you want to get a feel for your local area, you can either pull the Tesla app and use the 'Charge your Non-Tesla' section, or go to https://supercharge.info/map and filter out v2 stations via the filter icon.

The caveat here is that Rivian has not sent that adapter to many of its owners yet. If you do buy a Rivian, I would recommend asking how that's being handled for new purchases--does it just come with the car now, or do you have to get in line and wait with the prior owners--if you plan to do any road-tripping in the time immediately following purchase.

(2) Software issues (bugs) that required servicing, but service center appointments were running 3 month wait times. Not sure if this is still an issue, though, as these complaints mainly came from older reviews and reviews of the R1T.

I don't know whether this is still an issue. My guess is it's highly dependent on your location and your local Rivian service locations' loads. I know in CO I have not heard of this being a major issue.

(3) Slight build quality issues with panel alignment and with alignment of the charge port door.

News at 11. (I am so over panel gap complaints, which should not surprise you given my Tesla ownership. I just don't care unless it's egregious, and even Tesla has resolved the egregious cases since the beginning.)

(4) Road noise issues. Not terrible, but more noticeable than some reviewers thought appropriate for such an expensive vehicle.

No idea. Didn't notice this myself.

(5) Repair costs: A number of reviewers complained of exorbitant costs to repair small dents and dings. One cited a small dent in the bumper caused by backing into a tree. He contacted Rivian who told him to only get it repaired at an authorized Rivian shop. They quoted him just under $20K to fix the dent. Not sure if that's a one off, but if not, it would be concerning.

I have heard of this being an issue, and the 'don't ding the door or you'll total it' jokes. I suspect that as with Tesla in the early days, it's mostly bullshit. But I would definitely recommend ironing your your insurance situation beforehand to make sure that it's actually bullshit.

Contrary to my 'in-defense-of-the-X' commentary upthread, I am not trying to convince you to get the Tesla. I think you'd probably be very happy with the Rivian. My main thrust there was to hit the perceived negatives you saw in the X, as they've all wound up being major positives for us in the long run. Either of these cars is likely to serve you very well.

[Carpet_pissr]

Did you see my post above about the EV9?

Lots of comparisons out there between the very few in the class (3 row, full size EV SUV) - basically EV9, Rivian, and Tesla.

Yep. Checking it out now. Looks nice and seems to have plenty of storage capacity. But that price tag is pretty steep, too: The one I just configured online (Land, AWD) came out at just under $72K.

My AWD Land price was low $60’s after the $7500 rebate and others. I don’t think you see the discounts if you build and price from the corporate site. Edmund’s recommended price to pay is $63,295.

[Zaxxon]

Did you see my post above about the EV9?

Lots of comparisons out there between the very few in the class (3 row, full size EV SUV) - basically EV9, Rivian, and Tesla.

Yep. Checking it out now. Looks nice and seems to have plenty of storage capacity. But that price tag is pretty steep, too: The one I just configured online (Land, AWD) came out at just under $72K.

My AWD Land price was low $60’s after the $7500 rebate and others. I don’t think you see the discounts if you build and price from the corporate site. Edmund’s recommended price to pay is $63,295.

Also worth noting that Kia just last week started producing EV9s in the US. I have no idea which trims or how long it'll be until most EV9s sold in the US are made here, but eventually (at least some) EV9 will start to qualify for the federal tax credit.

[Carpet_pissr]

Interesting. I just assumed they ran out of their quota for the federal rebate. Smart that they are doing their own rebate to match the missing federal.

[stessier]

Interesting. I just assumed they ran out of their quota for the federal rebate. Smart that they are doing their own rebate to match the missing federal.

Quotas are no more. It's based on vehicle price, location of manufacture, and RM sourcing locations.

[Kurth]

Interesting. I just assumed they ran out of their quota for the federal rebate. Smart that they are doing their own rebate to match the missing federal.

Quotas are no more. It's based on vehicle price, location of manufacture, and RM sourcing locations.

Based on purchaser income now, too. Not sure when that got introduced, but there are income caps and no federal tax credit if you surpass them ($300K for married couples filing jointly; $150K for single filers).

[Carpet_pissr]

Oh wow, did not know that! Last time I was potentially shopping EV’s was around 2021, so I’m quite out of the loop.