Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm**

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:22 pm Minecraft was the same and it did ok for that billionaire Notch.

Sure did. See my comments about Tall and Wide and it being the jackpot.

Is your point that Factorio is another minecraft? Or are you just saying that *someone* has to win the jackpot every once in awhile, which isn't really news to anyone? Number of units sold for Factorio is quite impressive and that number can only grow. Still though, Minecraft is several orders of magnitude more popular (if units sold is a good indicator) than Factorio. Will it become the next minecraft? I have no idea.

Listen. The developers are free to make as much or as little money as they want, as long as the market cooperates. If they value price per unit versus selling more units at a lower price, that's their right. It's unusual, because except for the extremely rare jackpots, never putting your product on sale means less money in their pockets (eventually). Sales wouldn't exist if they didn't accomplish that goal. Sales don't exist because of the benevolent and charitable nature of the publishers who just want to give the consumer a break.

I don't think I need to say it again, but I will. The makers of Factorio are (is?) free to price the product at whatever they want, and I am free to decide whether it's worth that price to me or not. Currently it is not.

That's all there is to it.

No illwill on either side of the equation.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:01 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm I don't think I need to say it again, but I will. The makers of Factorio are (is?) free to price the product at whatever they want, and I am free to decide whether it's worth that price to me or not. Currently it is not.

You can be wrong. It's totally worth $20. It's totally worth $30 or $60. And I -think- Factorio is the last game I bought that cost more than $15.

That assumes you like building and automation games. If you don't, then it may not be worth it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm**

I believe they've set their price at $30 for a permanent market because this game has exactly zero competition. It's either the best base-builder I've ever played, or essentially a genre unto itself. Construction-Puzzle-Sandbox-Base-Expansion game. It doesn't trigger my OCD, it works with it.

I've played, replayed, and played over the Beta. Hundreds of hours. The nearest game in my roster is Terraria with over 500 hours. It never seems to get old.

I suppose as a fan(boy) of the game, hearing someone scoff at a $20 pricetag is like hearing someone scoff at paying $100 for a new car. It's almost offensive and makes me boggle... but, having been burned by a number of EA titles and living constantly off Steam sales, I kind of get the angle.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:07 pm**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:01 pm
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm and I am free to decide whether it's worth that price to me or not. Currently (edit: I think) it is not.
You can be wrong.

Of course I could be wrong. There have been multiple games that I waited for sales and when I finally did buy them, they were so good I kicked myself for waiting as long as I did. Borderlands (edit: two freakin' years it took, and every single Steam sale I eagerly checked the price, only to be disappointed and go back to waiting) AND borderlands 2, for example. Still, they were (despite being 2 years old) awesome and I got them for 5 bucks, so it wasn't a complete failure.

I've also jumped early on games that turned out to be disappointments at the price I paid. I also have waited for a good sale and was completely satisfied with the price versus my enjoyment of the game.

My opinion doesn't not have to be anyone else's opinion, and I'm not suggesting as much.

Obviously this has nothing specifically to do with Factorio (this conversation happened in Rimworld thread already).

Sorry for the distraction.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:13 pm**

I don't think it's a distraction. In fact, I think it's a fairly useful to see how many people think a game has value at a particular price point.

I'm a cheapskate when it comes to gaming now. Sometimes it's very frustrating... I don't really want to wait 2 years to play the new Battletech, for example, but there's too much out for cheap.

Also, correction: the last full price game I got is the yet to be released WoW expansion.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:16 pm**

Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm It's almost offensive and makes me boggle... but, having been burned by a number of EA titles and living constantly off Steam sales, I kind of get the angle.

Sure, I get that. I'm pretty sure that is Lorini's stance, having had this discussion twice now with her.

I guess the answer is...too bad?

I don't know what I am missing? I'm willing to forgo an excellent game for no other reason than I can't get it at the price I want?

I have a finite amount of time, and a finite amount of money. The market is a busy place, and there is lots of competition for my time and money, even if this game is uniquely placed within the market.

And in my opinion, it's less like balking at a $100 dollar car, and more like balking at paying sticker price, then other people getting offended because the car is "totally worth" the sticker price. That may well be. Oh well.

I didn't come in here to shit all over the game, or the price. I came in here to read about peoples' perspectives on the game, and then to write that I thought it sounded interesting, and if it hits the right price, I'll pick it up and try it. The OO effect is a very real effect, and I'm not immune to it.

If that offends you, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. It was not my intent.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:17 pm**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:13 pm I don't think it's a distraction. In fact, I think it's a fairly useful to see how many people think a game has value at a particular price point.

I'm a cheapskate when it comes to gaming now. Sometimes it's very frustrating... I don't really want to wait 2 years to play the new Battletech, for example, but there's too much out for cheap.

Also, correction: the last full price game I got is the yet to be released WoW expansion.

Fair enough. Like I said, I'm not here to ruin everyone's good time.

In contrast, I may very well be willing to pay full price for the new Battletech. Depends on how the impressions thread goes.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm
coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:22 pm Minecraft was the same and it did ok for that billionaire Notch.
Sure did. See my comments about Tall and Wide and it being the jackpot.

Is your point that Factorio is another minecraft? Or are you just saying that *someone* has to win the jackpot every once in awhile, which isn't really news to anyone? Number of units sold for Factorio is quite impressive and that number can only grow. Still though, Minecraft is several orders of magnitude more popular (if units sold is a good indicator) than Factorio. Will it become the next minecraft? I have no idea.

I think my point is that the no sale price thing has worked out for people before. It's not much of a point. I want everyone to buy all of the games I want. My only involvement in this thread at this point was the urge to make sure you saw that this week may be your last chance to get this game for $20 and Lorini has covered that. Now I'm just wasting time that I should be spending working so I can have money for the next steam sale where we scoff at all the discounts that aren't steep enough.

My relationship with money is totally broken. I grew up with too little and now some might say I have too much and the fact that $10 makes a difference to someone both bothers me and makes perfect sense to me.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:46 pm**

Thanks for standing up for me Lord Mortis. I think you and I have an understanding of one another, I really appreciate this

.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 pm**

Why did you feel the need to mention that the developer was under no obligation to put it on sale? The way you worded it implied either that I had said as much in the past or was going to say as much in the near future, or that I was thinking it, none of which were true then or are true now.

Was there a specific reason? Because it's that line that made me think you were upset/annoyed/whatever, and if I misinterpreted it, my mistake. If you could clarify for me, it would help me better understand what you were trying to say, or even better, why you felt the need to say it.

As I pointed out, there has been no discussion between us about Factorio or the developer of Factorio. Also as I mentioned, I had no idea that Factorio's developer is adamant about their price point when I wrote that I would wait for a sale.

Lil' help?

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:23 am**

It's not a sale, but if you are monthly humblebundle subscriber, you can get it from them for 10% off - $18. Now to go pause my account again.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:27 am**

I am, so thanks for the heads up. If I start talking about the game you'll know I caved despite my protestations otherwise earlier.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:49 am**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:29 pm
Lorini wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:11 am Uh as we discussed they have stated it's not going on sale. It's never been on sale and it's going up from$20 to $30 on April 16. And no, they have no obligation to put it on sale.
No, we haven't discussed it. You might be remembering our talk in the Rimworld thread about Rimworld. And as we discussed there, the publisher has every right to never put their product on sale, so I think you're comment about "obligation" is weird and out of place.

As for myself, just as the publisher has every right to fix a price and leave it there, I have every right to not buy it at that fixed price. At no point do I feel the publisher owes me anything, and of course, I owe the publisher nothing.

The gaming industry is remarkably robust, possibly the most it has ever been, and competition is fierce for the market's gaming dollars. You can price "wide" or you can price "tall" with the goal being to make the most money possible. Of course if it's good enough and has a broad enough appeal, you can price "tall" and sell "wide", which is like hitting the jackpot for an independent developer.

If any particular developer is satisfied with their units sold and the money generated and from those sales, and would rather have zero dollars from me than 10 bucks (or whatever sale price that would get me to buy), that's their right. Personally, I'm comfortable with that as well.

Truthfully, 10 bucks wouldn't be cheap enough to get me to buy it today, so it sounds like my buy point and the publisher's sell point will never intersect. We'll both live.

You seem weirdly upset by my decision to not buy a game if it's not on sale. Why is that?

You of course have every right not too buy at any price but to say you wouldn't buy at $10 does make it seem it isn't worth $10 when in fact it really is worth the price as shown by just how many copies have been sold.

These days it does feel that gamers want the game even if they don't really they feel it there type, they think well if it goes low enough I may get it. Game A is not really my type but if it hits $8 i'll give it a go the problem we get is those that would buy more when the price is higher as it is more appealing to them pick it up cheap.

Recently, say the last 18 months I have found myself buying less as prices are slower to come down and stuff I may just have bought but never played I no longer buy, back log is smaller and it's hard to say how that affects the seller but the market place still seems robust.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:32 am**

I am extremely confused why anyone would have issue with someone saying they would rather buy something at a lower price than presently available. You all keep acknowledging that it is that person's perogative but then follow up acting like that person is devaluing the game. You start off by saying that person's opinion is valid, but follow up saying your opinion is... more valid. That's pretty terrible.
The game is worth to a person what it is worth to that person, determined by a wide variety of factors that may not even be relevant to another person. In fact, here's a test for your resolve: the game is worth zero dollars to me because I know I have neither the time nor inclination to learn the mechanics while I have other games in my collection I want to play. Zero. Dollars. If that offends you, it may be time to rethink what you are getting offended about.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:19 am**

Freyland wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:32 am I am extremely confused why anyone would have issue with someone saying they would rather buy something at a lower price than presently available. You all keep acknowledging that it is that person's perogative but then follow up acting like that person is devaluing the game. You start off by saying that person's opinion is valid, but follow up saying your opinion is... more valid. That's pretty terrible.
The game is worth to a person what it is worth to that person, determined by a wide variety of factors that may not even be relevant to another person. In fact, here's a test for your resolve: the game is worth zero dollars to me because I know I have neither the time nor inclination to learn the mechanics while I have other games in my collection I want to play. Zero. Dollars. If that offends you, it may be time to rethink what you are getting offended about.

Because to be fair they are devaluing the game, not because they don't buy it but because they SAY they won't buy it due to price, that is devaluing it to those that have bought it. Add to this people in general do feel entitled especially to sales, I mean normally the first questions is Has this been on sale followed by when is this going on sale. This is all about devaluing something.

This doesn't really happen to many other consumer products. Don't see it happening to Music, Dvd's and so on, seems mostly to apply to games. You can say anyone can pay anything for anything but once you start asking for cheaper it has to devalue it. Not saying this is wrong it just is.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:34 am**

Stop worrying about other people. If you paid for it, you are happy with the result, and feel you got your money's worth out it, stop worrying about people wanting it cheaper "devaluing" your experience.

What other people say or want doesn't change your relationship between you and the game unless you let it

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:40 am**

Reemul wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:19 am
Freyland wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:32 am I am extremely confused why anyone would have issue with someone saying they would rather buy something at a lower price than presently available. You all keep acknowledging that it is that person's perogative but then follow up acting like that person is devaluing the game. You start off by saying that person's opinion is valid, but follow up saying your opinion is... more valid. That's pretty terrible.
The game is worth to a person what it is worth to that person, determined by a wide variety of factors that may not even be relevant to another person. In fact, here's a test for your resolve: the game is worth zero dollars to me because I know I have neither the time nor inclination to learn the mechanics while I have other games in my collection I want to play. Zero. Dollars. If that offends you, it may be time to rethink what you are getting offended about.
Because to be fair they are devaluing the game, not because they don't buy it but because they SAY they won't buy it due to price, that is devaluing it to those that have bought it. Add to this people in general do feel entitled especially to sales, I mean normally the first questions is Has this been on sale followed by when is this going on sale. This is all about devaluing something.

This doesn't really happen to many other consumer products. Don't see it happening to Music, Dvd's and so on, seems mostly to apply to games. You can say anyone can pay anything for anything but once you start asking for cheaper it has to devalue it. Not saying this is wrong it just is.

Respectfully disagree. First of all, everything you choose to purchase or barter for is based on the value you place on it. If that value is based on urgency, such as food, you are going to be willing to pay more even if you dislike that item because you *need* it. If that value is based more on Want, then numerous factors come into play to generate that value. Your value and another person's value of an item or service don't have to equate because that value is based on two different people, not the product in question. Again, this product has no value to me, and obviously most of the Steam-using world also sees a value less than this games price, since not every Steam user has bought it. Are we all mistreating this game and it's developer because we haven't bought it? If that's the case, I, for one, have about 5000+ more sins to atone for that I was not aware of before this conversation.
As to why the expectations for lower prices is more common with games than other industries, is because the industry it's willing to cater to it, and seems to be successful for it as well. You needn't look past a single day on Steam to appreciate several discounts offered. Or a Monday to see 300+ discounts. Or Heaven forbid one of their Seasonal sales with thousands of discounts. I didn't send Steam a request for those sales, they offered it to me. How can you be surprised at people's expectations that lower prices will be available?

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:15 am**

As GG referenced my comment went back to another previous discussion about this same issue.

I don't care what you buy or what you pay for it. My only point was that (and I thought GG was following the thread, my bad there) we had already discussed that it wasn't going on sale, so him saying he'd wait for a sale seemed to fly in the face of that.

I think it's very reasonable to decide on a price point for a game if that's what you want to do. If you want to play Factorio however I'm 99.9% sure you will either pay $20 now or $30 later.

At the end of the day, I love Oxygen Not Included for example but I'm not paying $100 for it. The price it was offered at was acceptable to me, so I bought it. The price of Far Cry 5 is too high for me given the amount of play I'd give it which is probably not much.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:55 am**

And to be fair I didn't come in here and claim that you all paid too much for it and that it isn't worth what you paid for it and that you're all suckers for buying it.

While it can be inferred that I don't think it's worth 30 bucks, my price point is based more on a personal decision to get *every* game that interests me at that price point, because I play a lot of games and it's important to me that I spend as little money as possible on them.

My apologies if my personal preference about price came across as criticism of what you paid for it. Again, that was not my intent. I rarely judge how other people spend their money. It's your money, you could burn it in a furnace to keep you warm at night and I wouldn't criticize.

That's it, that's all. Please continue to discuss this very interesting game.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:58 am**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:55 am And to be fair I didn't come in here and claim that you all paid too much for it and that it isn't worth what you paid for it and that you're all suckers for buying it.

While it can be inferred that I don't think it's worth 30 bucks, my price point is based more on a personal decision to get *every* game that interests me at that price point, because I play a lot of games and it's important to me that I spend as little money as possible on them.

My apologies if my personal preference about price came across as criticism of what you paid for it. Again, that was not my intent. I rarely judge how other people spend their money. It's your money, you could burn it in a furnace to keep you warm at night and I wouldn't criticize.

That's it, that's all. Please continue to discuss this very interesting game.

What if it wasn't a high-efficiency furnace? In this case, it would quite literally make your dollar last longer.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:28 pm**

Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm I believe they've set their price at $30 for a permanent market because this game has exactly zero competition. It's either the best base-builder I've ever played, or essentially a genre unto itself. Construction-Puzzle-Sandbox-Base-Expansion game. It doesn't trigger my OCD, it works with it.

I'd put FortressCraft: Evolved in the same genre, but there are meaningful difference between the two.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:30 pm**

If/when GreenGoo ever gets the game, the only modules he'd install in his electric furnaces are Efficiency Modules...

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:26 pm**

The Meal wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:28 pm
Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm I believe they've set their price at $30 for a permanent market because this game has exactly zero competition. It's either the best base-builder I've ever played, or essentially a genre unto itself. Construction-Puzzle-Sandbox-Base-Expansion game. It doesn't trigger my OCD, it works with it.
I'd put FortressCraft: Evolved in the same genre, but there are meaningful difference between the two.

One of the biggest differences is that I’ve tried unsuccessfully several times to get started with FortressCraft and have been unable to do so. Another difference is that the YouTubers I like like Biffa and Lacy don’t play it.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:33 pm**

Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:26 pm One of the biggest differences is that I’ve tried unsuccessfully several times to get started with FortressCraft and have been unable to do so. Another difference is that the YouTubers I like like Biffa and Lacy don’t play it.

I like Fortresscraft, but it's always felt a bit unfinished, and I wouldn't put it in the same league as Factorio. Fortresscraft is like Factorio Lite meets Minecraft.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:01 pm**

I should have said "... meaningful differences..." My bad.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:38 pm**

Every time I see FortressCraft on Steam, I look it over and go "Nope." ... Every time. Not even on my wishlist. Gameplay videos, screenshots, etc. It all turns me off.

It's always come across as a multiplayer fortress builder, a lot more like MineCraft than Factorio.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:42 pm**

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:38 pm Every time I see FortressCraft on Steam, I look it over and go "Nope." ... Every time. Not even on my wishlist. Gameplay videos, screenshots, etc. It all turns me off.

It's always come across as a multiplayer fortress builder, a lot more like MineCraft than Factorio.

It is more like MineCraft, but there's a good dose of Factorio. At least the logistics portions. They are both very entertaining.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:29 am**

Well now the cat's out of the bag! One of the benevolent benefactors on OO got tired of listening to me and simply gave me the game in an attempt to shut me up (ok, those are my words, but still).

After a half hearted attempt to get him to reconsider to which he scoffed, I am now the proud owner of Factorio.

Thanks Coop! Your generosity is very much appreciated and I look forward to finding out for myself what all the excitement is about.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:17 am**

If you start by playing the campaign (like I am), know that on the second mission, you have to get into your car for the game to count the items in your car's inventory toward the required total.

I've had to travel this week, which means no Factorio since Sunday. It was a bad plan to get addicted only to have to go cold turkey.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:27 am**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:29 am Well now the cat's out of the bag! One of the benevolent benefactors on OO got tired of listening to me and simply gave me the game in an attempt to shut me up (ok, those are my words, but still).

After a half hearted attempt to get him to reconsider to which he scoffed, I am now the proud owner of Factorio.

Thanks Coop! Your generosity is very much appreciated and I look forward to finding out for myself what all the excitement is about.

Oh man, I need to start whining more.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:47 am**

I can't speak to what the game is like now but assuming it's only improved since a year+ ago, and you were interested enough in builder/automation to pay attention to this thread then game you are in for a treat that would have been easily worth $20.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:27 am
Oh man, I need to start whining more.

Eh, I whine all of the time. All it gets me is sarcasm.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:57 am**

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:47 am Eh, I whine all of the time. All it gets me is sarcasm.

That's funny, I'm sarcastic all the time, all i get is whining.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:53 am**

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:27 am Oh man, I need to start whining more.

Make sure the whining is at least somewhat entertaining and it's a game I really like. There are really only a handful of games I will buy for other people.I have more than once considered buying XCOM2 or Kerbal Space Program for all of my friends that have it on their wishlist, but it turns out I have too many wishful friends and dropping $500 all at once on gifts feels a bit extravagant.

Back to Factorio, after stessier mentioned the campaign I reinstalled the game and opened it up to look. I am pretty sure I have never touched it, but since I "finished" the sandbox game I figure I ought to be able to figure it out... right after Kingdom Come Deliverance, unless Battletech is out by then... dammit.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:55 am**

I'm pretty sure I got Walking Dead because I whined about it never hitting the $5 price point on sales.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:00 am**

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:53 am unless Battletech is out by then... dammit.

I would really love to try battletech out but I need to wait for it go on deep discount. I can't see paying $30 for license that old that's been done before.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:20 pm**

I bought Oxygen Not Included for naednek to try to bribe him to be a Dodger fan. Didn't work though

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:53 pm**

I'm on the third campaign mission on Normal mode (options were Easy, Normal, and Hard). It is annoying because there are no resources to mine - you have to find a way to beat it with what you brought. I think I have a plan after dying a bunch of times over an hour, but it's still annoying. I want to build stuff!

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:07 pm**

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:53 pm I want to build stuff!

I think I played the campaign for about an hour before I just switched over to sandbox. That's the way to play it IMHO, especially if you just want to get to the building.

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:12 pm**

Sepiche wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:07 pm
stessier wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:53 pm I want to build stuff!
I think I played the campaign for about an hour before I just switched over to sandbox. That's the way to play it IMHO, especially if you just want to get to the building.

I liked the first two missions and found it helpful to have directed goals. It's kind of like the StarCraft campaign - a bunch of the missions were base builders but every so often they threw in an escort mission where you have to survive with what you brought. It misses the thing that most of the fan base found enjoyable. I hope to move on quickly and resume the construction fun. I don't see an option to drop the difficulty to get by, though, so I hope my current plan works.

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:29 pm**

According to Steam I have 610 hours in this game. There's not really any other game like this one. The appeal is really building something, then realizing that you can build it better. Then you spend the next 600+ hours trying to make that even better.

I've made 17 factories and counting. I'm taking a break for now, but I'll be back. The game is really good.

Octopus Overlords

Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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