Octopus Overlords

noxiousdog wrote:

El Guapo wrote: Doesn't that apply equally to the secessionists?

Of course.

My underlying point is that examples of wars of independence are generally irrelevant to the legality of an attempt for a region to secede from a nation in any particular case.

I'm pretty sure legality goes out the window once armies are involved.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

noxiousdog wrote: The European Union will exist just fine without Greece. The Britian existed just fine without Canada, Austrailia, and the United States. The Russian Federation seems ok without however many places seceeded from there.

None of these really work.

The EU is an economic union, not a nation.

Australia and the US were British colonies, not home territory. Canada is some kind of constitutional parliamentary monarchy under the Queen of England. And the sun does now set daily on the British Empire.

The Russian Federation is a fragment of the former Soviet Union and is trying desperately to regain lost Soviet republics. But technically none of them seceded from the Russian Federation. They seceded from the Soviet Union and led to its dissolution. So...not OK.

Split hairs all you want. There are plenty of examples of provinces, regions, ducheys, or states removing themselves from a central authority. The US was perfectly happy to accept the rogue nation Texas after all.

None of those work at all. How is that splitting hairs?

El Guapo wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:

El Guapo wrote: Doesn't that apply equally to the secessionists?

Of course.

My underlying point is that examples of wars of independence are generally irrelevant to the legality of an attempt for a region to secede from a nation in any particular case.

I'm pretty sure legality goes out the window once armies are involved.

Yes, when you're using the might makes right argument, it puts you on awfully shaky ground.

El Guapo wrote:Yes, when you're using the might makes right argument, it puts you on awfully shaky ground.

PLW wrote:

RunningMn9 wrote: We also know that every citizen in South Carolina is a United States citizen (in 1861). By what right does the state legislature in South Carolina have to strip any person living in South Carolina of their US citizenship?

I like this point a lot. Nice job.

El Guapo wrote:it was at least debatable at the time.

AoC wrote:Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

Articles of Confederation wrote:perpetual Union between the states of...

US Constitution wrote:We, the people of the United States

Articles of Confederation wrote:Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

US Constitution wrote:This constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

3. The senators and representatives before-mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this constitution;

dbt1949 wrote:Interesting article on "southern heritage."

Confederate battle flags greeted President Barack Obama as he arrived here for an overnight stay on Wednesday.

Holman wrote:It's great that they can do it. It's shitty that that's their message.

Waving a rebel flag at the POTUS is like stomping and shitting on a U.S. flag. It's legal to do it, and the message is loud, but it also makes you the nastiest kind of fool.

Rip wrote:See, it makes me feel the opposite.

That even racist nutjobs can protest and do crass things in public (even in the presence of our leader) and not devolve into throwing rocks, riots, or people being thrown in jail. There are few places on earth you could do something so offensive and not get much beyond people shaking their heads in response.

Peaceful free speech is a beautiful thing, we take it far too much for granted.

raydude wrote:

Rip wrote:See, it makes me feel the opposite.

That even racist nutjobs can protest and do crass things in public (even in the presence of our leader) and not devolve into throwing rocks, riots, or people being thrown in jail. There are few places on earth you could do something so offensive and not get much beyond people shaking their heads in response.

Peaceful free speech is a beautiful thing, we take it far too much for granted.

So you're down with Westboro protests at military funerals then?

Rip wrote:

Holman wrote:It's great that they can do it. It's shitty that that's their message.

Waving a rebel flag at the POTUS is like stomping and shitting on a U.S. flag. It's legal to do it, and the message is loud, but it also makes you the nastiest kind of fool.

Agree, the message is asinine shit, but that it can be done peacefully is heartwarming.

hepcat wrote:

Rip wrote:

Holman wrote:It's great that they can do it. It's shitty that that's their message.

Waving a rebel flag at the POTUS is like stomping and shitting on a U.S. flag. It's legal to do it, and the message is loud, but it also makes you the nastiest kind of fool.

Agree, the message is asinine shit, but that it can be done peacefully is heartwarming.

You can paint a swastika on your car and drive through a Jewish neighborhood, too. But I wouldn't call it heartwarming.

Rep. James Clyburn (S.C.), the third-ranking House Democrat, said Thursday that Democratic leaders will drop their push to attach flag-related amendments to appropriations bills, freeing Republicans to pursue their spending agenda, if GOP leaders will agree to consider an update to the 1965 Voting Rights Act, a central part of which was gutted by the Supreme Court in 2013.

"I'm here to say to you that the members of the Congressional Black Caucus and the full Democratic Caucus are willing to sit down with the Speaker and work out a way for us to allow the proper display and utilization of ... the flag in certain instances if he would only sit down with us and work out an appropriate addressing of the amendments to the Voting Rights Act," Clyburn said during a press briefing in the Capitol.

"We believe that there's a proper place for all of us to honor our heritage, and nothing is more of a heritage to African-Americans than the right to vote."

The Democrats have been pushing a VRA update unsuccessfully for two years. With their new strategy, they're hoping the high-profile controversy surrounding the Confederate flag — which has only deepened since last month's racially charged killing of nine parishioners at an historic black church in Charleston, S.C. — will give them leverage in that fight.

$iljanus wrote:Wow, like that show the David Dukes of Hazzard or something.

According to court records, a judge issued an arrest warrant for West after he failed to show up last week for a court hearing on the probation violation charge. West, whose rap sheet is brimming with weapons-related charges, is serving two years probation for a misdemeanor conviction earlier this year for “Assault Pointing Gun.”..

...West lives in Rocky Mount, a predominantly African-American city about 60 miles east of Raleigh. As seen below, West’s home is a neighborhood eyesore, a walled-in property ringed by barbed wire and surrounded by an array of Confederate flags (which have grown in number since last month’s racially motivated killings at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church).

Pyperkub wrote:Surprise, surprise! Why is it I tend to think that this guy is representative of a large part of the flag's vocal supporters?

According to court records, a judge issued an arrest warrant for West after he failed to show up last week for a court hearing on the probation violation charge. West, whose rap sheet is brimming with weapons-related charges, is serving two years probation for a misdemeanor conviction earlier this year for “Assault Pointing Gun.”..

...West lives in Rocky Mount, a predominantly African-American city about 60 miles east of Raleigh. As seen below, West’s home is a neighborhood eyesore, a walled-in property ringed by barbed wire and surrounded by an array of Confederate flags (which have grown in number since last month’s racially motivated killings at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church).

RuperT wrote:I don't think you can fly but 3 flags of any type before you're a weirdo anyway.

It's been widely reported that the "No Flagging Challenge" - in which Confederate flags are stolen - is spreading across the US. But in fact only a handful of videos showing such incidents have been posted online. Criminal? Very likely. Foolish? Yes, indeed. Political? Most definitely. The latest "challenge" to supposedly go viral involves stealing the controversial Confederate battle flag off of homes or vehicles, videotaping the act and posting it online. It's been dubbed the "No Flagging Challenge" and social media and international news outlets were quick to pick up on the story. Videos posted online seem to show African-Americans stealing the flag. "Vigilantes play DARE with the confederate flag," one newspaper headline declared, while another called the stunt "quick, direct, illegal, and likely to provoke rage."

Carpet_pissr wrote:Mocking tuba (actually looks like a sousaphone, i.e. LOUUUUUD) march alongside Confederate protestors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4P1kKK-5kP

Smoove_B wrote:

Carpet_pissr wrote:Mocking tuba (actually looks like a sousaphone, i.e. LOUUUUUD) march alongside Confederate protestors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4P1kKK-5kP

If I was independently wealthy -- like money to burn on anything wealth -- I would hire this guy to fly around the United States and follow various hate groups around during parades. KKK. Westboro Church -- according to the SPLC Hate Map there are 40 active hate groups alone in the State of NJ alone. That's mind boggling, but this is awesome.