Octopus Overlords

I'm just going to print out the new rulebook and use my ipad for the scenario book. Then I'll grab some health dials for Magic or something. I just ordered the removable stickers for the cards, boards and boxes from sinister fish in England. They'll probably take 2 weeks or so to get here as they're currently in production. But I haven't even retired a character yet, so I'm not in any hurry.

I just don't want to wait until August.

p.s. I follow the game designers I like on kickstarter and it alerts me when they back something. That way I can jump onto anything that I'm not aware of that I might like.

I've been receiving backing notices for Gloomhaven from pretty much all of them.

Ugh I'm so tempted on this one. Problem is I really have nobody to play it with. My group really won't be into the theme. And it will get played infrequently so if the rules are fiddly (I've heard they might be... Thoughts by those who have played?) Then playing infrequently becomes even more problematic.

I know how this ends...

I started off in the fiddly camp. Now it's just fun.

Chrisoc13 wrote:Ugh I'm so tempted on this one. Problem is I really have nobody to play it with. My group really won't be into the theme. And it will get played infrequently so if the rules are fiddly (I've heard they might be... Thoughts by those who have played?) Then playing infrequently becomes even more problematic.

I know how this ends...

17 solo specific scenarios... plays well with two...

The entire game campaign plays fine solo. The solo specific scenarios are intended as fun challenges for players after they've leveled up a character. They can then try them out, individually, in the challenging solo scenarios.

The rest of the game, just run with 2 or 3 characters in front of you. They've added an incredibly easy variant to compensate for the "perfect knowledge"* you have of every card being played by your characters. When playing with other people, you can NEVER tell them exactly what your initiative is going to be, how much damage you're going to do, how far you're going to move, etc.. This simulates the hectic nature of combat. And while it might sound frustrating, it's actually really quite fun.

I've been playing mostly solo, myself. Seppe, Zarathud and another friend of ours have their own characters they're jumping into the game with every now and again though. Since the game is built around the party, you just swap in characters and away you go.

The box says 1 to 4 and they mean it. I've had as much fun playing with 2 players as I've had with 3 (the most I've ever played with). Although it might run a bit long with 4. However, since I freakin' love this game, that's not an issue for me.

The only thing that some folks find annoying is that when you clear out a room and you need to get to the other side of the dungeon or something, you STILL have to play cards to move there. Since running out of cards essentially means your character is out of the scenario, you really need to plan out your every move in this game. My first couple of games, I was banging my head against the table over this. But after that, it clicked and I could figure out how to manage my hand in order to survive.

The puzzle like nature of the game is also why a lot of people compare this to Mage Knight.

And while it may not be in the spirit of analog boardgaming, I've started using the wonderful Gloomhaven companion app. It takes away the need to sort through a deck of hundreds of cards to find the specific AI deck for the monsters you're facing.

Well I'm not entirely sold (only because of time and likelihood to hit the table etc) but I backed it (I know that took a long time right?) I am sure the game is awesome my backlog is just long. But I must admit this game sounds fun. It sounds to be more along with what I always hoped myth would have been.

I appreciate all of your input even though it has caused me to back a huge game I don't have room or time for

It is EXACTLY what I hoped Myth would be, if that's any help.

...although I've not sold my copy of Myth because I do like some of the mechanics, and the figs are just so fantastic.

But Gloomhaven just blows all other games in this genre out of the water, IMHO.

200 to 300 hours of gaming (probably more in my case...plus, the designer already released everything you need to "reset" your game and start over fresh after you're done with the first play through), an extended campaign that's actually pretty well written, tons of character growth and customization, new character classes in sealed boxes that you have to unlock as you play,a city that grows with you, achievements that unlock new abilities and items...

...it's ridiculous that this amount of game was made by one man.

It will be hard for any game in 2017 to top this in my book.

Chrisoc13 wrote:I appreciate all of your input even though it has caused me to back a huge game I don't have room or time for

If you're anything like me (i.e. suffered frequent head trauma, been locked in a poorly ventilated room with toxic paint, went to the University of Akron), then this game will push everything else aside for quite some time. I set it up on my kitchen table on a Sunday afternoon, and then just play throughout the week. On Friday nights and Saturdays, I round up players for bigger games of it.

I was very skeptical but still chose to play the Spellweaver who has a very small hand to manage. I figured out that it was manageable if you payed attention. I had a key card that let me fully re-stock my hand once. If I lost it, I was toast. I started out good, weakened then sprang back strong as the rest of the group was weakening.

Dawdling to "clean out" an area is discouraged. Get in, grab the objective and punch out.

Zarathud wrote:I was very skeptical but still chose to play the Spellweaver who has a very small hand to manage. I figured out that it was manageable if you payed attention. I had a key card that let me fully re-stock my hand once. If I lost it, I was toast. I started out good, weakened then sprang back strong as the rest of the group was weakening.

Dawdling to "clean out" an area is discouraged. Get in, grab the objective and punch out.

A Stamina potion for the spell weaver is pretty damn important.

I have come to the conclusion that my unsuitability with RPGs also extends to boardgame characters.

I jumped on this one. After the good word of mouth from Hep and the general buzz, it feels like a no brainer. Let me ask something - how important are the legacy aspects of the game? I understand you can keep playing it even after you have finished the legacy stuff?

There are 96 scenarios in the game. Bear that in mind.

Each scenario can take anywhere from 90 minutes to 3 hours. With almost a hundred scenarios in the game, AND a random dungeon generator, AND the ability to replay any of the scenarios in casual mode for xp and gold, AND the release of multiple "reset kits"....well, you're getting your money's worth.

The legacy stuff is a giant, delicious carrot that pulls you along. There's so much to unlock, it's ridiculous.

When you play the scenarios do you have to play in a certain order? Basically can I skip the 3 hour ones and save them for when I actually have that kind of time?

Yes and no. When you start the game, you only have one scenario. When you complete it, it opens up a second one. Which then opens up another one. You explore the world with these breadcrumbs.

Additionally, there are town and road events that may open up new locations.

So you initially don't have a lot of choices in what you scenarios you can do. However, as hepcat noted, you can always just do a random if you don't have time to tackle an available scenario from the book.

Damn you Hepcat! <shakes fist at the sky, backs Gloomhaven>

Isgrimnur wrote:I have come to the conclusion that my unsuitability with RPGs also extends to boardgame characters.

Is this in regards to Gloomhaven? I'd hardly call Gloomhaven an RPG. It's a dungeon crawler with a campaign. For the most part it looks like binary choices and tactical combat (I guess there is a story too). You also earn resources to buy cards, but I have seen you do that happily a hundred times.

I'm hoping my oldest (11 when I get it) will be willing to give it a try, but if not I will play solo. Our kitchen table will be one of these with a topper by then, so I will be able to leave it out all the time.

Also, it's tough to look at some scenarios' intros and determine how long they're going to be. You'd have to read through the rest of it to get a feel for how long it may take, and spoil it in the process.

I leave the game up on my kitchen table and just play over the course of a week if I'm involved in a larger scenario. The game really doesn't take up as much real estate as some would have you believe (you don't need the world map open at all during a scenario). But if you don't have that option, it's fairly easy to just snap a photo of your character and monster placements, tear down the map, and then set it back up later.

But I'm betting once you start playing a scenario, you'll be so intent on getting to that reward, or finding out who did what to whom, that you'll make time.

MonkeyFinger wrote:Damn you Hepcat! <shakes fist at the sky, backs Gloomhaven>

This game has overtaken Mage Knight/Star Trek Frontiers as my go to solo game. I still want to get back to Shadows of Brimstone, but it's probably going to be a while as I'm hopelessly enamored of Gloomhaven. To be fair though, it's hard to compare Gloomhaven to games like Shadows of Brimstone, Galaxy Defenders, Descent 2nd edition, etc.. as it's more Euro in nature. No dice, tactical in nature, "puzzley"...it's easier to compare it to Mage Knight for me. If you enjoy that, then you'll love this.

coopasonic wrote: Our kitchen table will be one of these with a topper by then, so I will be able to leave it out all the time.

I like the cut of your jib. One of my absolute favorite things to do after a crappy work week if I can't get folks together is to set up a game on a Friday night, grab a beer (or three), put on some Nick Cave, and just play for a few hours. If I don't finish it that night, I'll do it on Sunday afternoon.

p.s. for those who want to take a chance that they'll print enough for a decent retail distribution this time, there's no kickstarter rewards for backing it now. You could probably wait and grab a copy from online retailers at about 84 bucks or something. That's what I did. I got VERY lucky in that regard, but I believe they'll print enough this time to cover a far wider path of retail destruction, given how insanely popular the game is.

Considering how much money I spent on board games over the last couple of years compared to computer games, I should really try hepcat's method (though sans beer as I don't drink). I tend to just plop in front of the computer instead.

Though when my topper table comes, I'm hoping that it'll make it easier. It's going to be in the same room as the computer.

Yeah I'll just back it instead of taking the chance. I want to watch videos and read thoughts but bgg seems to mostly be down for me today, or running slow. I'm sure I'll end up liking it even if I do end up playing solo (though I cannot leave it set up between sessions... I need a gaming table). Big game new hotness games have fallen flat for me the last few years though (scythe, Mechs vs minions, etc.) even with people loving then like crazy (obviously my personal issues not an issue with the games) so I'm just hoping this doesn't fall into that spot and I'm Leary. But I am very intrigued by it.

No stretch goals it anything on it right? I like that.

The beer is essential. It helps me to explain to my neighbors why they heard a middle aged man "doing voices" and shouting at a kitchen table at 10 o'clock at night.

Chrisoc13 wrote:
No stretch goals it anything on it right? I like that.

None whatsoever. Isaac was very clear about not wanting to screw over those who supported him the first time around.

They put a lot of videos on the KS. Maybe some of those will work for you?

hepcat wrote:The beer is essential. It helps me to explain to my neighbors why they heard a middle aged man "doing voices" and shouting at a kitchen table at 10 o'clock at night.

Chrisoc13 wrote:
No stretch goals it anything on it right? I like that.

None whatsoever. Isaac was very clear about not wanting to screw over those who supported him the first time around.

Just blame it on the television... It always works in the movies. Right?

The Gaming Rules videos are the "official" video tutorials for Gloomhaven. They are what convinced me to buy the game, as a matter of fact. Very well done and easy to understand.

Yeah I'm a big fan of no stretch goals or exclusives and want to support projects like that. I've grown very weary of cmon type campaigns and I actively avoid those type now. Very cool to see a project do so well without manipulating backers the way cmon does.

I don't mind stretch goals I just feel like they are generally fabricated and not real. Also no endless add ons for this is nice. I'll add the solo missions because I like the idea of them but I also like that they are made available for free, you can just pay for printed copies if you like. Big thumbs up on that.

I feel the same way...until they offer a crap ton of stuff and I excitedly jump on board.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm a huge hypocrite.

Oh, quick jump away from Gloomhaven, the Aeon's End sequel/stand alone expansion is up on kickstarter. They took to heart the complaints that the artwork in the original game was kind of bland, and they're redoing it all. They're even offering free upgrade packs to backers of the first game (10 bucks for retail buyers) that will bring them all up to the same standards.

It's a great little deckbuilder with some very unique mechanics.

For any of you that dig Gloomhaven, have you taken a look at City of Kings

From the videos I have seen (Both the creator and Rahdo) this appears to be a cross between Mage Knight and tile exploration games. I went ahead and backed it because I am sucker for anything RPGish.

Chrisoc13 wrote:Yeah I'm a big fan of no stretch goals or exclusives and want to support projects like that. I've grown very weary of cmon type campaigns and I actively avoid those type now. Very cool to see a project do so well without manipulating backers the way cmon does.
I don't mind stretch goals I just feel like they are generally fabricated and not real.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm the opposite. I like stretch goals and exclusives... Makes me feel like I'm getting more bang for my buck. Yeah, since I came to KS late in the game I missed out on a bunch of stuff that I would have liked, but I do like getting extra stuff for free, now that I'm onboard.

I know one thing that backfires is when they promise you the sun and the moon in stretch rewards...and then realize it's going to extend the game's shipping date out way further than originally promised. Or they have to break shipments up into multiple ones over the course of years. Shadows of Brimstone...Myth...I'm looking at you.

Promo type rewards I can understand though. Things that don't significantly alter the component list for a game.

edit: one thing I do like when it comes to stretch rewards is when they upgrade components as part of the rewards system. It makes perfect sense to me when a small developer unlocks thicker card stock, or a bigger map for all as they get more money funneled into their project.

Punisher wrote:Can you elaborate on this? I'm the opposite. I like stretch goals and exclusives... Makes me feel like I'm getting more bang for my buck. Yeah, since I came to KS late in the game I missed out on a bunch of stuff that I would have liked, but I do like getting extra stuff for free, now that I'm onboard.

There's different types of stretch goals. I'm now a fan of the ones that upgrade the components to higher quality - thicker, higher quality cardboard, organizational inserts, linen cards, etc... as it improves the gameplay (for me) with less to worry about for wear and tear.

Some KS projects create stretch goals that end up feeling like things that should likely be part of the game already. Others use stretch goals to create what feels like it could have been a future expansion, but they're taking advantage of people that want to throw money or they're using the exposure to squeeze as much out of the KS as possible, knowing it might be the only time people give them financial support. I'm against KS exclusives, particularly for things that change the way the game plays. These are clearly done to manipulate collectors or people that feel a need to have everything and going on what happened years ago, thinking they can simply sell or flip the exclusives on eBay for tons of money. I've also been avoiding KS projects with miniatures - particularly those that unlock minis as an upgrade or add on. I can't think of a single KS project I've backed that includes miniatures that wasn't delayed or problematic in other ways. The current offender: Darkest Night (2nd edition).

I too was a fan of stretch goals for a long time with the "I'm getting upgrades" or "I'm getting it for free" mentality. Well, after you get more than one delivered KS with stretch goals that are sub-quality or half-baked in terms of balance or design, suddenly that "free upgrade" means a lot less. Don't get me wrong, there are likely still amazing KS to back or deals to be found, but I think the gold-rush days of KS are long gone.

To that end, I didn't back Gloomhaven originally because of his relatively unknown presence - and it included minis. However, I cannot ignore the positive reviews not only from well-respected Youtubers but the gaming community as well. Gloomhaven is clearly a game that would not exist if not for KS. No retailer is going to stock 10+ copies of a 21lb game from an independent unknown developer. It's seemingly a perfect example of how a game can be developed outside of a traditional publisher/retail arrangement and be successful. For those that backed when it was an unknown, that is impressive. The fact that he's running a re-print KS and not gouging the potential audience is even more amazing. He seems to clearly understand how he fits into the board gaming landscape and is simply working within those constraints and selling direct to the audience.

Well, my 1st Miniatures game on Kickstarter was The Walking Dead: All Out War Miniatures Game and it came out on time. I also backed The Walking Dead No Sanctuary which is still on track to be on time. I have quite a few more that are recent backings, so time will tell on those.
I did back a zombie deck building game that was supposed to be done in 2013. There are updates, but still no product..
and I got burned on a KS for some 3D printable scenery that the developer dropped pretty much the same day the KS successfully funded... Thankfully it was only $35, but still put a sour taste in my mouth...

The Walking Dead No Sanctuary KS was one I almost backed, but didn't because of the miniatures. It felt like a card game that was using miniatures to get more people to throw money at it. I thought the character mini's looked cool, but the last thing I need is another bucket full of identical generic miniatures (gang members, zombies,etc...). And then once they started down all the KS exclusive miniature stuff, I was out.

Well, I backed both games purely as a fan of both the Comic and TV show, but since that initial backing, my family and I started playing Zombicide and I started painting them, which has gotten me more interested in the mini portion of the various mini games...
Hopefully my enthusiasm doesn't wane for that part since I have 5 games including No Sanctuary coming to me...eventually... I am also sorely tempted to buy into the Kingdom Death Monster late pledge.. The game itself looks interesting, but also looks like a big commitment game wise.. (and money wise!)

and i will probably add Gloomhaven to the list towards the end of the KS.

Punisher wrote:

Chrisoc13 wrote:Yeah I'm a big fan of no stretch goals or exclusives and want to support projects like that. I've grown very weary of cmon type campaigns and I actively avoid those type now. Very cool to see a project do so well without manipulating backers the way cmon does.
I don't mind stretch goals I just feel like they are generally fabricated and not real.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm the opposite. I like stretch goals and exclusives... Makes me feel like I'm getting more bang for my buck. Yeah, since I came to KS late in the game I missed out on a bunch of stuff that I would have liked, but I do like getting extra stuff for free, now that I'm onboard.

Sure. Largely I echo what has already been said, but let me elaborate on my own opinion based on experiences and my thoughts on gaming as a whole with kickstarter and exclusives as well as stretch goals.

First of all I love kickstarter. At last count I have backed nearly 40 board games alone on kickstarter, and for the most part I have been very happy with them. There are games I have backed that never would have seen the light of day without it. Some of them very good, most of them... not so much. But I do love kickstarter for what it can offer. That being said, there are some practices that over time I have come to very much NOT appreciate on kickstarter. Some of which I initially really did like.

So here are my thoughts on these issues:

- First off exclusives. What exactly is the purpose of exclusives, especially game changing exclusives? The purpose is exclusion and manipulation. Exclusion from those who did not back the game so that the creator can use manipulation to try and get people to jump on the kickstarter in a limited window. Because if not... you either won't get the exclusive content, or they will cost you an arm and a leg on the secondary market afterwards. They use FOMO to try and grab more backers to back the game. The entire ploy is to manipulate backers into throwing money at an untested product in a short window of time out of fear of missing out.

Now there are some exclusives which are worse than others. Game changing exclusives? That's just flat out wrong in my opinion. In the long run these tend to kill the games though so these are becoming less common. Unique content only available as an exclusive that is game changing basically cannot end well (in my opinion).
Either:
A) The exclusive content is fantastic and the game suffers for everyone else that doesn't have it and therefore the game fails.
Or the more common scenario-
B) Since the exclusive material is just for the kickstarter it likely will not be as well play-tested, sometimes the rules are hard to find or are half-baked, and it makes for a worse experience.
And then the boring but least common in my opinion-
C) The extra exclusive content is somewhat pointless, but works. But late adopters of the game are left without the added variety which leads them to be more easily manipulated for the "Most spectacular mini game ever" (insert KS of your choice honestly) kickstarter version 2. The base game suffers as a result and isn't as well thought-out as it could be.

The vast majority of exclusive content is not game changing so much, as adding variety to the game (this is where CMON falls). More monsters nobody else will have, heroes nobody else will have, etc. But what purpose is this for being exclusive? So you can have something nobody else has? If it really is a good addition to the game I want other people to be able to enjoy it as well, and others having it does nothing to take away from MY enjoyment of the piece. See scenario A above. But often times it still falls under scenario B above, where the addition is somewhat half-baked and thrown together. Either way it's not an ideal situation to be in.

I see no purpose in exclusive material other than to make people feel special for backing the game. It doesn't help the hobby.

- Secondly streatch goals.

Not all stretch goals are created equal, but don't be fooled, almost every game backed on kickstarter there is no such thing as free stretch goals. Those stretch goals are all factored into the cost before it even launches. You are not actually getting free minis on CMON kickstarters. You are paying $100 for a base game that will be sold at retail for $65 and you are getting some extra minis thrown in, but you are paying for those. Not only that they were all pre-planned before the game even launched. Well you better at least hope for, because if not... then you run into the situation Hepcat talked about. Delay after delay, or worse... "uh-oh please send us cash we didn't realize mailing stuff was expensive and adding more weight would increase the cost of shipping!"

On top of that extra content to the game can actually make the experience worse in my opinion. More is not always better. Some of these kickstarters suffer from serious bloat just from throwing more and more stuff into the kickstarter. This can end up diluting the actual fun gameplay to just be a hot mess of too many mechanics and too much stuff. Want a good example? Try Zombicide on. I actually like Zombicide, but that game (due to CMON wanting to print money with it on kickstarter) suffers from a serious case of bloat. It suddenly takes up an entire shelf with some 5 boxes and too many varieties of zombies to even be fun. Even just a single season suffers from serious bloat. It doesn't actually increase the fun, it just increases the girth of the game, the complexity of the rules, and the storage space required. If some is good, more is not necessarily better.

That's just something I've learned about games in general though. I used to be a completionist (which is what KS creators are hoping to manipulate with exclusives) but I realized over the years that some games don't need more, and to create more is just silly. I don't buy big box versions of games anymore due to bloat, and stretch goals tend to just bloat games.

Another thing about stretch goals already mentioned is that often they were always meant to be part of the bast game yet they act like you are unlocking something special. It's artificial and forced.

The stretch goals I like more are upgrades to the game because at certain numbers they can afford to increase the quality of the game as others mentioned.

So to sum up:

- I don't like exclusives because they are exclusionary by nature, come with a myriad of their own issues, are used to manipulate backers. I don't even like game changing or variety adding promos for games outside of KS.
- I don't like most stretch goals because they are either artificially created, or they create real problems in the campaign or the game down the road.

If this sounds like I am angry about it, I'm not. I just avoid these kickstarters now and stick to ones that I see as treating backers fairly.

As a disclaimer I am not a minis guy. Yes my favorite game is X-wing but hordes of minis being thrown at me does not sway me one bit, and I don't care about the price of each mini being a "screaming good deal" as people will often say in big mini kickstarters. I don't collect minis outside of games, so I don't care how great of a deal the minis are if they add little to the game or the game is of little value.

coopasonic wrote:

Isgrimnur wrote:I have come to the conclusion that my unsuitability with RPGs also extends to boardgame characters.

Is this in regards to Gloomhaven? I'd hardly call Gloomhaven an RPG. It's a dungeon crawler with a campaign. For the most part it looks like binary choices and tactical combat (I guess there is a story too). You also earn resources to buy cards, but I have seen you do that happily a hundred times.

If it involves having to keep track up upgraded stats and character inventory like the Pathfinder card game, I'd not care for it.

Couldn't you hire someone to do that for you?

Isgrimnur wrote:

coopasonic wrote:

Isgrimnur wrote:I have come to the conclusion that my unsuitability with RPGs also extends to boardgame characters.

Is this in regards to Gloomhaven? I'd hardly call Gloomhaven an RPG. It's a dungeon crawler with a campaign. For the most part it looks like binary choices and tactical combat (I guess there is a story too). You also earn resources to buy cards, but I have seen you do that happily a hundred times.

If it involves having to keep track up upgraded stats and character inventory like the Pathfinder card game, I'd not care for it.

I will own it and know it, at some point I will convince you to come over and check it out. 2 players is relatively fast, I hear. See you in the fall!

I would be fine with that.

Isgrimnur wrote:If it involves having to keep track up upgraded stats and character inventory like the Pathfinder card game, I'd not care for it.

Wait a sec. Aren't you one of those Magic the Gathering or Nightfall wack-a-doos? You think keeping track of numbers and things like inventory is too complicated? Nightfall sent me home from a convention early because my brain was scrambled completely.