Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

malchior
Posts: 24795
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by malchior »

geezer wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:26 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:06 pm
geezer wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:52 pm Not to sidetrack, but I've never quite been able to square the "logical fallacy" with "appeal to authority." If someone is an authority in a given field, is their knowledge and opinion not to be given more weight than someone without such qualifications?
It doesn't mean that they're infallible.

Consider Peter Duesberg:
Peter H. Duesberg (born December 2, 1936) is a German American molecular biologist and a professor of molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley. He is known for his early research into genetic aspects of cancer, and more recently for his central role in the AIDS denialism movement as a proponent of the belief that HIV is harmless and does not cause AIDS.
Argument from authority
If all parties agree on the reliability of an authority in the given context it forms a valid inductive argument.

Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority as authority has no place in science.

Carl Sagan wrote of arguments from authority:
One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.
Of course, but one might accept that the "authority" has derived his/her argument through evidence and experiment, yes? It's not to say that anyone is infallible, merely that I find the counter of "logical fallacy" to be a cheap way of dismissing that which someone might not agree with.
It could be but IMO it was a response to exactly what I saw as the intent of the post which was to swat away a detailed opinion as non-expert. Lazily at that.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55952
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by LawBeefaroni »

geezer wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:26 pm

Of course, but one might accept that the "authority" has derived his/her argument through evidence and experiment, yes? It's not to say that anyone is infallible, merely that I find the counter of "logical fallacy" to be a cheap way of dismissing that which someone might not agree with.
Logical fallacies can be misused. That doesn't mean the idea doesn't have merit. Calling "logical fallacy!" isn't an argument in and of itself, it's just a way to evaulate or quantify an argument.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 71593
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by LordMortis »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:43 pm Calling "logical fallacy!" isn't an argument in and of itself, it's just a way to evaulate or quantify an argument.
That's a kinder and less detailed post than one I wrote and deleted. Calling logical fallacy doesn't even mean one was actually committed. Of course I was going to lead off with "when calling something a logical fallacy you should follow by showing how it's a logical fallacy" and then I went off on a long rant about the nature of sufficient and necessary conditionals and then I cut myself off, shut down my browser, and played Stallaris instead of letting my post lead me where it may with regard to calls for logic. It was interesting to me but I found my tone getting hostile and that doesn't do anyone good here.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by noxiousdog »

Apropos to this discussion is the Planet Money Indicator podcast on Wage Growth. It's only 11 minutes long. Give it a listen.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 24545
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:Not to sidetrack, but I've never quite been able to square the "logical fallacy" with "appeal to authority." If someone is an authority in a given field, is their knowledge and opinion not to be given more weight than someone without such qualifications?
In a logical debate, someone is not correct simply because one is an expert.

However, in an online discussion, presumably we are free to conclude that someone with experience and advanced education is more likely to be correct than someone with neither.

Not everyone appears able to track the difference between a casual discussion and the debate team.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
Drazzil
Posts: 4724
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Drazzil »

Wow. What thoughtful, analytical, well reasoned arguements everyone has contributed to my mostly thoughtless, definitely drunken critique of our current president.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by noxiousdog »

Drazzil wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:06 pm Wow. What thoughtful, analytical, well reasoned arguements everyone has contributed to my mostly thoughtless, definitely drunken critique of our current president.
We'll try not to let it happen again.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84740
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Isgrimnur »

We like to argue at the drop of a hat. Which is why the dropping of hats has been banned.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
RuperT
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:01 am
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by RuperT »

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:38 pm We like to argue at the drop of a hat. Which is why the dropping of hats has been banned.
Good luck regulating hat speech.
Quest: MacDaddy0 - PSN: Rupyrt - Live: MooseFoe
Drazzil
Posts: 4724
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Drazzil »

RuperT wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:15 am
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:38 pm We like to argue at the drop of a hat. Which is why the dropping of hats has been banned.
Good luck regulating hat speech.
:D
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Fretmute
Posts: 8513
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:05 pm
Location: On a hillside, desolate

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Fretmute »

RuperT wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:38 pm We like to argue at the drop of a hat. Which is why the dropping of hats has been banned.
Good luck regulating hat speech.
Genius.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 44986
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Kraken »

Drazzil wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:06 pm Wow. What thoughtful, analytical, well reasoned arguements everyone has contributed to my mostly thoughtless, definitely drunken critique of our current president.
Nobody else had thought to make a thread about Trump.
Drazzil
Posts: 4724
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan

Post by Drazzil »

Kraken wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:51 am
Drazzil wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:06 pm Wow. What thoughtful, analytical, well reasoned arguements everyone has contributed to my mostly thoughtless, definitely drunken critique of our current president.
Nobody else had thought to make a thread about Trump.
:lol:
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
Post Reply