malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:36 am
by Holman
Excellent speech. Biden's style is never a barn burner, but he's sharp, smart, and very very right here. Lots of strong and sincere power in this.
Kraken wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:52 pm
Biden should continue to stay out of the limelight, except in brief scripted situations, and let stronger campaigners do the heavy lifting. Especially Obama.
Yeah....hide in the bushes until it's safe to poke your hair-sniffing head out again.
He is showing great leadership capabilities in this time of crisis...…...or not.
He doesn't have to show great leadership, he just has to show he's better than trump.
That's a pretty low bar.
Clinton lost bc people didn't like her personally, not bc she wasn't superior in every way imaginable to trump; Biden doesn't have that problem.
But since you're questioning Biden's leadership chops, I'm guessing you think trump is doing a bang up job?
Really?
That's a bad guess.
But I really love how people keep saying how low the bar is. They seem to forget we're all the ones who set it.
Kraken wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:52 pm
Biden should continue to stay out of the limelight, except in brief scripted situations, and let stronger campaigners do the heavy lifting. Especially Obama.
Yeah....hide in the bushes until it's safe to poke your hair-sniffing head out again.
He is showing great leadership capabilities in this time of crisis...…...or not.
He doesn't have to show great leadership, he just has to show he's better than trump.
That's a pretty low bar.
Clinton lost bc people didn't like her personally, not bc she wasn't superior in every way imaginable to trump; Biden doesn't have that problem.
But since you're questioning Biden's leadership chops, I'm guessing you think trump is doing a bang up job?
Really?
That's a bad guess.
But I really love how people keep saying how low the bar is. They seem to forget we're all the ones who set it.
Ahem. Some of us more than others.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:47 am
by stimpy
But still......I know it's hard to admit, but to some degree we've all had a hand in us being where we are.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:49 am
by Holman
stimpy wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:47 am
But still......I know it's hard to admit, but to some degree we've all had a hand in us being where we are.
Some of us fought and marched and knocked doors and organized against it. Others voted him right in.
There's a difference, and the latter absolutely own this disaster. There's no bothsidesing this.
malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
It was carried live on MSNBC (and apparently CNN) at least. It is unconscionable that he had two pressers yesterday and got bupkis coverage.
malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
It was carried live on MSNBC (and apparently CNN) at least. It is unconscionable that he had two pressers yesterday and got bupkis coverage.
Yeah, and I'm seeing some discussion of it online. That's good.
malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
It was carried live on MSNBC (and apparently CNN) at least. It is unconscionable that he had two pressers yesterday and got bupkis coverage.
Yeah, and I'm seeing some discussion of it online. That's good.
Good, but not enough. The Media is a hungry beast. It needs meat to get clicks to get dollars.
"Old Man Talks" is in direct competition with "Riots in the street, cops run over, protesters beaten mercilessly, President mocks religious holy grounds"
What we need is a breath. A break. Some peace. Then it'll be easier to hear Biden. Right now, though, he's yelling into the Goatse that is Trump's chaos.
malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
It was carried live on MSNBC (and apparently CNN) at least. It is unconscionable that he had two pressers yesterday and got bupkis coverage.
Yeah, and I'm seeing some discussion of it online. That's good.
Good, but not enough. The Media is a hungry beast. It needs meat to get clicks to get dollars.
"Old Man Talks" is in direct competition with "Riots in the street, cops run over, protesters beaten mercilessly, President mocks religious holy grounds"
What we need is a breath. A break. Some peace. Then it'll be easier to hear Biden. Right now, though, he's yelling into the Goatse that is Trump's chaos.
I know. But for the media this is progress. What I love is when media outlets don't cover Biden events and then criticize his campaign for not being more visible.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:29 pm
by hepcat
Bunker Baby Beaten By Biden
Has a nice ring to it. Very alliterative.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:41 pm
by El Guapo
hepcat wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:29 pm
Bunker Baby Beaten By Biden
politically, it's very powerful - so Trump will cry BLOODY MURDER that Biden is being political.
But it does a great job at showing something that Biden can do, be welcomed to this funeral, vs. something Trump wouldn't have a shot at and wouldn't even dare try to do.
Biden should play his role there very small, IMO. Just be there. Come, and go.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:53 pm
by El Guapo
I'm curious whether Biden will speak.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:59 pm
by Unagi
I think that plays his hand too strong, when he doesn't need to.
If he speaks, he may help and look good, etc. - but that invites critics to point out that he scored politically by using the event.
If he just goes, speaks quietly to the family perhaps, and then leaves - he looks welcomed by the center of the ripple of these events and squarely shows his side/solidarity in all this, but doesn't expose anything at all, IMO.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:24 pm
by malchior
Unagi wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:59 pm
I think that plays his hand too strong, when he doesn't need to.
If he speaks, he may help and look good, etc. - but that invites critics to point out that he scored politically by using the event.
If he just goes, speaks quietly to the family perhaps, and then leaves - he looks welcomed by the center of the ripple of these events and squarely shows his side/solidarity in all this, but doesn't expose anything at all, IMO.
Who cares if critics complain? Seriously. Let there be criticism for being decent.
Unagi wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:59 pm
I think that plays his hand too strong, when he doesn't need to.
If he speaks, he may help and look good, etc. - but that invites critics to point out that he scored politically by using the event.
If he just goes, speaks quietly to the family perhaps, and then leaves - he looks welcomed by the center of the ripple of these events and squarely shows his side/solidarity in all this, but doesn't expose anything at all, IMO.
Who cares if critics complain? Seriously. Let there be criticism for being decent.
Right. The murder and funeral are an inflection point for who we are as a country.
Trump has already played his hand. Let Biden make his point.
malchior wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am
Good speech by Biden. He set the right tone and spelled out specific solutions. And also appropriately called out Trump.
Is it getting any media coverage, though?
It was carried live on MSNBC (and apparently CNN) at least. It is unconscionable that he had two pressers yesterday and got bupkis coverage.
Yeah, and I'm seeing some discussion of it online. That's good.
Good, but not enough. The Media is a hungry beast. It needs meat to get clicks to get dollars.
"Old Man Talks" is in direct competition with "Riots in the street, cops run over, protesters beaten mercilessly, President mocks religious holy grounds"
What we need is a breath. A break. Some peace. Then it'll be easier to hear Biden. Right now, though, he's yelling into the Goatse that is Trump's chaos.
I know. But for the media this is progress. What I love is when media outlets don't cover Biden events and then criticize his campaign for not being more visible.
But is that really the media's fault that they give their customers what they want? Or is it the fault of the consumer for demanding 'cops run over protestors' vs 'hard news about policy positions'?
It does the media nor the country any good to show Biden's speech to empty seats; not their fault the country sucks.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:35 pm
by Holman
GungHo wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 pm
But is that really the media's fault that they give their customers what they want? Or is it the fault of the consumer for demanding 'cops run over protestors' vs 'hard news about policy positions'?
It does the media nor the country any good to show Biden's speech to empty seats; not their fault the country sucks.
The "customer's desires" are a reading of the public's passive behavior.
A media outlet's active choice of what to air and emphasize is made media minute by media minute, day after day.
Unagi wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:59 pm
I think that plays his hand too strong, when he doesn't need to.
If he speaks, he may help and look good, etc. - but that invites critics to point out that he scored politically by using the event.
If he just goes, speaks quietly to the family perhaps, and then leaves - he looks welcomed by the center of the ripple of these events and squarely shows his side/solidarity in all this, but doesn't expose anything at all, IMO.
Who cares if critics complain? Seriously. Let there be criticism for being decent.
Right. The murder and funeral are an inflection point for who we are as a country.
Trump has already played his hand. Let Biden make his point.
GungHo wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 pm
But is that really the media's fault that they give their customers what they want? Or is it the fault of the consumer for demanding 'cops run over protestors' vs 'hard news about policy positions'?
It does the media nor the country any good to show Biden's speech to empty seats; not their fault the country sucks.
The "customer's desires" are a reading of the public's passive behavior.
A media outlet's active choice of what to air and emphasize is made media minute by media minute, day after day.
It's obvious where responsibility lies.
They have access to their minute by minute, day after day ratings and of course they're going to emphasize what gets the most viewers. This sounds like trump and his 'enemy of the people' bs. People are responsible for their choices; it's not like it's hard to change the channel, go to a different website, or unfollow someone on Twitter.
I'm not absolving the media of blame; they've been airing dirty laundry for as long as there has been dirty laundry. But we the people have to be held to account as much for our choices as our politicians and media are.
GungHo wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 pm
But is that really the media's fault that they give their customers what they want? Or is it the fault of the consumer for demanding 'cops run over protestors' vs 'hard news about policy positions'?
It does the media nor the country any good to show Biden's speech to empty seats; not their fault the country sucks.
The "customer's desires" are a reading of the public's passive behavior.
A media outlet's active choice of what to air and emphasize is made media minute by media minute, day after day.
It's obvious where responsibility lies.
They have access to their minute by minute, day after day ratings and of course they're going to emphasize what gets the most viewers. This sounds like trump and his 'enemy of the people' bs. People are responsible for their choices; it's not like it's hard to change the channel, go to a different website, or unfollow someone on Twitter.
I'm not absolving the media of blame; they've been airing dirty laundry for as long as there has been dirty laundry. But we the people have to be held to account as much for our choices as our politicians and media are.
Audiences are fluid and even somewhat imaginary. Who is watching, and how closely, and with or without distraction? How do you know? "Ratings" are as unreliable as polling, but even more so because they're literally about the minute-by-minute small-screen picture, which changes constantly and can't be accurately assessed for motive and impression. (Most TV rating services are broad vapid weekly surveys.)
Producers of content are definitely responsible for what they choose to air and why. This is especially true if they believe themselves to be journalists rather than entertainers.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:51 am
by GungHo
I don't want to hijack the thread but your initial point is kind of nebulous IMO. Eyeballs are eyeballs. There's no real way to qualify them. Does spending 15 minutes on a web page mean the user was more closely reading an article than someone who spent 3 minutes there, or did their 3yo just poop in the middle of the floor( asking as someone with a 3yo )?
However, I do agree with your point that 'journaliats' should be more responsible than the Hannitys of the world. But I think that leads us in a whole other direction
Suburban women in Wisconsin are going 64% Biden vs. 29% Trump in new Fox News poll out tonight.
I need a follow-up investigation on this to find out more about the ~30% of polled suburban women in Wisconsin that are pro-Trump at this point. I don't need identities, but I want quotes and detailed information as to how they're voicing support for him.
Suburban women in Wisconsin are going 64% Biden vs. 29% Trump in new Fox News poll out tonight.
I need a follow-up investigation on this to find out more about the ~30% of polled suburban women in Wisconsin that are pro-Trump at this point. I don't need identities, but I want quotes and detailed information as to how they're voicing support for him.
It's blind loyalty. Trust me I know plenty of suburban Women who still support him. They literally either don't believe most of the negatives or somehow justify it. Mostly by blaming the media. His attack on the press works amazingly well on a lot of people.
The third type that I've encountered are people who are just oblivious because they are too self absorbed to follow politics.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:01 am
by Kraken
I read a social media exchange that went like this:
Woman: I wish people would respect the president and stop tearing him down. I hated every minute of Obama's eight years, but I didn't talk trash about him.
Other Woman: What did you hate so much about Obama?
Woman: He did nothing but lie, every day. Trump tells the truth.
Some people are just lost.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:10 am
by Roman
Kraken wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:01 am
Woman: He did nothing but lie, every day. Trump tells the truth.
Some people are just lost.
This was share on my FB feed yesterday:
An anguished question from a Trump supporter: ‘Why do liberals think Trump supporters are stupid?’
THE SERIOUS ANSWER: Here’s what the majority of anti-Trump voters honestly feel about Trump supporters en masse:
That when you heard him relating a story of an elderly guest of his country club, an 80-year old man, who fell off a stage and hit his head, to Trump replied: “‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away. I couldn’t—you know, he was right in front of me, and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him. He was bleeding all over the place. And I felt terrible, because it was a beautiful white marble floor, and now it had changed color. Became very red.” You said, "That's cool!" (https://www.gq.com/story/donald-trump-h ... tern-story)
That when the Central Park Five were compensated as innocent men convicted of a crime they didn't commit, and he angrily said that they should still be in prison, you said, "That makes sense." (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 501321001/)
That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!" (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... is/567320/)
That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be." (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-in ... 6332e76d57)
That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!" (https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2 ... 017-000603)
That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!" (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles ... t-the-ways)
That you have seen him start fights with every country from Canada to New Zealand while praising Russia and quote, "falling in love" with the dictator of North Korea, and you have said, "That's statesmanship!" (https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics ... index.html)
That Trump separated children from their families and put them in cages, managed to lose track of 1500 kids, has opened a tent city incarceration camp in the desert in Texas - he explains that they’re just “animals” - and you say, “Well, OK then.” (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mo ... t-n1071791)
That you have witnessed all the thousand and one other manifestations of corruption and low moral character and outright animalistic rudeness and contempt for you, the working American voter, and you still show up grinning and wearing your MAGA hats and threatening to beat up anybody who says otherwise. (https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... -families/)
What you don't get, Trump supporters, is that our succumbing to frustration and shaking our heads, thinking of you as stupid, may very well be wrong and unhelpful, but it's also...hear me...charitable.
Because if you're NOT stupid, we must turn to other explanations, and most of them are less flattering.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:54 am
by malchior
The Police break with Biden. Not great for the election but the Unions have thrown in with Trump. Let them make these complaints and open themselves to be seen supporting fascism. When Biden wins they'll have less influence to prevent the massive set of reforms that we must get implemented. Potentially another massive blunder by the police groups on the policy front.
Joe Biden has long prided himself on being a union-friendly Democrat with a good relationship with rank-and-file cops.
But Biden’s call for more national policing reforms and oversight in the wake of the death of George Floyd — and the perception that he hasn’t shown enough solidarity with law enforcement amid the ensuing nationwide protests and unrest — have created a fissure with law enforcement groups, leaving many who once supported him frustrated by what they regard as political posturing by their one-time ally.
“Clearly, he’s made a lot of changes the way candidates do during the primary process, but he kept moving left and fell off the deep end,” said Bill Johnson, executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations, the umbrella organization for Police Benevolent Association chapters.
“For Joe Biden, police are shaking their heads because he used to be a stand-up guy who backed law enforcement,” Johnson said. “But it seems in his old age, for whatever reason, he’s writing a sad final chapter when it comes to supporting law enforcement.”
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:09 am
by El Guapo
malchior wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:54 amThe Police break with Biden. Not great for the election but the Unions have thrown in with Trump. Let them make these complaints and open themselves to be seen supporting fascism. When Biden wins they'll have less influence to prevent the massive set of reforms that we must get implemented. Potentially another massive blunder by the police groups on the policy front.
Joe Biden has long prided himself on being a union-friendly Democrat with a good relationship with rank-and-file cops.
But Biden’s call for more national policing reforms and oversight in the wake of the death of George Floyd — and the perception that he hasn’t shown enough solidarity with law enforcement amid the ensuing nationwide protests and unrest — have created a fissure with law enforcement groups, leaving many who once supported him frustrated by what they regard as political posturing by their one-time ally.
“Clearly, he’s made a lot of changes the way candidates do during the primary process, but he kept moving left and fell off the deep end,” said Bill Johnson, executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations, the umbrella organization for Police Benevolent Association chapters.
“For Joe Biden, police are shaking their heads because he used to be a stand-up guy who backed law enforcement,” Johnson said. “But it seems in his old age, for whatever reason, he’s writing a sad final chapter when it comes to supporting law enforcement.”
Were they ever really going to support Biden over Trump in the general election? It's not like there was ever going to be a real debate over who was going to be more supportive of 'don't put restrictions on police in their use of force' type views.
Maybe I'm just so used to police unions expressing and supporting noxious views that I've just been assuming that they would inevitably support Trump.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:13 am
by Zarathud
Police unions aren’t helping with the Us vs. the Public view.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:52 am
by Paingod
Kraken wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:01 amWoman: He did nothing but lie, every day. Trump tells the truth I like.
WTFH.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:18 pm
by Holman
Kraken wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:01 am
I read a social media exchange that went like this:
Woman: I wish people would respect the president and stop tearing him down. I hated every minute of Obama's eight years, but I didn't talk trash about him.
Other Woman: What did you hate so much about Obama?
Woman: He did nothing but lie, every day. Trump tells the truth.
Some people are just lost.
Trump repeatedly tells them one thing that they desperately want to be true. Obama refuted it.
Kraken wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:01 am
I read a social media exchange that went like this:
Woman: I wish people would respect the president and stop tearing him down. I hated every minute of Obama's eight years, but I didn't talk trash about him.
Other Woman: What did you hate so much about Obama?
Woman: He did nothing but lie, every day. Trump tells the truth.
Some people are just lost.
Trump repeatedly tells them one thing that they desperately want to be true. Obama refuted it.
I'll bet we can all guess what "it" is.
Well duh, it's that tan suits are groovy.
Re: Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 am
by Kraken
I saw my first local Biden yard sign today. In white letters on a blue field, it simply says "Biden: truth not lies". I'll overlook the missing comma because each word is a separate line.
)?