Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:54 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:50 pm Back when we were. Leaf/Volvo household, we had a JuiceBox. I remember that it did support ToU. I do agree that the Chargepoint app is snazzier, tho. Is that unit still 32A? So long as you don't care about that extra 8A, also a good choice from what I've read. Haven't used that one myself.

The Juicebox I currently own is a 32A. Both Juicebox and Chargepoint make 48A versions that I think I prefer for the new charger. There is only a $20 difference between them. If I get it installed before the end of December, looks like there is a tax credit for it as well.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:04 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:54 pm
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:50 pm Back when we were. Leaf/Volvo household, we had a JuiceBox. I remember that it did support ToU. I do agree that the Chargepoint app is snazzier, tho. Is that unit still 32A? So long as you don't care about that extra 8A, also a good choice from what I've read. Haven't used that one myself.
The Juicebox I currently own is a 32A. Both Juicebox and Chargepoint make 48A versions that I think I prefer for the new charger. There is only a $20 difference between them. If I get it installed before the end of December, looks like there is a tax credit for it as well.

Nice. Yeah, mine was a Juicebox Pro 40A. If the amperage and price is about the same, I'd probably go with the Chargepoint just for the app integration (I actually use the CP app for public charging). When I was in the market, the CP was actually more expensive and lower-amperage.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:14 pm

I mentioned it earlier but I was actually agonizing over the Tesla Wall Connector vs. ChargePoint/Juicebox. The electrical upgrade is scheduled imminently so it is shit or get off the pot time. Tesla is sort of making a call for me...being that they haven't managed to ship me the wall connector for (checks notes) 8 days. They really are bad at the simple things.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:26 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:14 pm I mentioned it earlier but I was actually agonizing over the Tesla Wall Connector vs. ChargePoint/Juicebox. The electrical upgrade is scheduled imminently so it is shit or get off the pot time. Tesla is sort of making a call for me...being that they haven't managed to ship me the wall connector for (checks notes) 8 days. They really are bad at the simple things.

Bummer. My last few Tesla shop orders all shipped within a day or two, but none of them were wall connectors... Boy, you should have seen the state of shop orders a couple of years ago.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:32 pm

Talk about timing. I *just talked to the electrician*. He wants to come out tomorrow. Luckily, it is a big enough job and the electrician is local enough that he doesn't mind breaking the job up into 2 parts. We'll get everything all set and they'll come back to finish the last hour or so of actually wiring up whatever I want him to hang on the wall.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:12 pm

Tesla is still doing better than my choices - looks to be a few weeks before anyone has either in-stock. I'm assuming it is the chip shortage and not a sudden run on EVs.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:17 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:12 pm Tesla is still doing better than my choices - looks to be a few weeks before anyone has either in-stock. I'm assuming it is the chip shortage and not a sudden run on EVs.

Imagine it's probably both. Tesla's not the only ones ramping up production of BEVs.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:33 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:12 pm Tesla is still doing better than my choices - looks to be a few weeks before anyone has either in-stock. I'm assuming it is the chip shortage and not a sudden run on EVs.

Yeah as usual delays are a whatever in this environment. I just wish they told me when I ordered it or some rough idea of a ship date so I can communicate with my installer.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:54 pm

Update: The problem was not Tesla. Fedex just completely screwed the pooch. I chased Tesla and they said it shipped last week. Why they didn't send me a note that it shipped is a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but they kicked Fedex and suddenly it appeared with a status I've never seen: "Shipment exception Barcode label unreadable and replaced".

It'll get to me ... a week from today. 2+ weeks after I ordered it. I think they are sending it to me using an updated version of the HitchBOT. Hopefully they upgraded the algo to skip PHL.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm

If only they had a product that could Fully Drive to you itSelf...

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:04 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm If only they had a product that could Fully Drive to you itSelf...

One thing I find odd is I get why Tesla dealerships don't have a traditional parts department...but you'd think they'd be able to sell wall connectors, accessories, etc.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:26 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:04 pm
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm If only they had a product that could Fully Drive to you itSelf...
One thing I find odd is I get why Tesla dealerships don't have a traditional parts department...but you'd think they'd be able to sell wall connectors, accessories, etc.

Service centers do, or at least ours out here does. But stock is hit or miss.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:19 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:26 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:04 pm
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm If only they had a product that could Fully Drive to you itSelf...
One thing I find odd is I get why Tesla dealerships don't have a traditional parts department...but you'd think they'd be able to sell wall connectors, accessories, etc.
Service centers do, or at least ours out here does. But stock is hit or miss.

I called the one in Princeton, NJ, they don't, and they left me with the solid impression that I should just buy it online. Maybe I should have tried the North Jersey one. My EDD keeps slipping, slipping, slipping into the future so no hurry at all. The good thing about all this is I don't care. I like my current car and this is just a 'luxury' upgrade. When I get all this sorted out...it'll be the right time.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:48 pm

There's a non-binding amendment attached to the Senate budget bill that would end the EV tax credit for anyone making over $100k and limiting the credit to cars only under $40,000.

disarm · Post by **disarm** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:13 pm

pr0ner wrote:There's a non-binding amendment attached to the Senate budget bill that would end the EV tax credit for anyone making over $100k and limiting the credit to cars only under $40,000.

Well that really sucks. Why should being a high earner (which $100k barely is in a lot of the US) or wanting a nicer car exclude one from a tax credit meant to incentivize the transition to better technology than the old ICE? It seems like the goal is to effectively end the tax credit without technically removing it completely. So frustrating

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:52 pm

I wouldn't bet on means-testing being included in the final bill, at least not as that amendment lists them ($100k income, $40k vehicle limit). The amendment passed by the slimmest of margins over opposition from Michigan and TN (I wonder why that might be?). It would exclude most EVs, defeating its purpose.

Also, a $100k income limit is far too low if that's a universal #, and not tied to single filers (I haven't found the actual text yet). Would expect a higher cap if MFJ or HoH, or at least a staggered drop over the limit. A family of 4-5 making less than $100k/year probably isn't in the market for a new car that could possibly be an EV at this stage, anyway.

This is designed to get people to buy new BEVs, after all--specifically cars that cost more than the average (else why need a tax credit in the first place?). If you're going to limit it to that extent, it becomes largely self-defeating, and the goal should be achieved in a different manner (cash for clunkers subsidy when trading in for an EV, subsidy for EV charging, additional tax on gasoline, etc).

That said, I'm not at all opposed to some level of MSRP and income caps. Folks making $500k/year purchasing Model S Plaid don't really need much of a nudge. But any credit that excludes base long-range Model 3/Y, Mustang Mach-E, XC40 Recharge, and the base models from other manufacturers, is missing the point. I'm sympathetic to disarm's point, though, too. At the end of the day, the goal is to nudge sales of ICE vehicles to be BEVs, instead.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:28 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:07 pm What's another billion among friends?

I'm responding in here because I think it matters to more than just the Bolt. Electrek also has an article and notes how GM's tone has changed toward LG. It appears they think they know what is causing the fires (a torn anode tab and a folded separator in the same battery). LG makes a lot of batteries for other people as well (for example, the Mach E...sigh). It'll be interesting to see if this expands enough to effect the general public's perception of EVs.

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:31 pm

FWIW, my place of employment has installed about 20 dual evGO 100 kW CCS chargers at a certain depot instead of relying on existing infra-structure chargers already built into the place. Unfortunately, it seems only HALF of them seem to be working. And most chargers I've seen in public are 60kW chargers if they are even CCS. The I-Pace can certainly take it, and I've noticed faster charging. Generally, 1 hour at a 60KW charger adds about 50% or so juice. Last night I was routed to the 100KW chargers back at depot. I didn't take a full measure, but I know I went in with about 30% and left with over 90%.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:27 pm

Old Man Munro yells at cloud:

Excessive patriotism aside, he's largely right, tho. The headline / investigative focus on BEV fires, and on Autopilot, needs to be kicked down several notches. Investigate the crap out of Tesla's charging for 'FSD' for literal years with little actually delivered; I'm fully on board with that. Verify that GM handles the Bolt recall well. But get the heck out of the way with these general driver-assist investigations/'look how we intentionally broke many safety systems' articles, and quit headlining BEV fires as though even the Bolt is a general problem relative to the status quo of nearly a thousand ICE vehicles combusting every day, or as though transitioning to BEVs as quickly as possible isn't a literal life-and-death scenario for much of the world and all of the world's grandchildren.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:41 pm

The headline / investigative focus on BEV fires, and on Autopilot, needs to be kicked down several notches.

I was explaining that to my old man. When you think of all of the accidents out there, 20 total with 2 fatalities is, well, nothing. I've seen that on my commute to work. It's not something to strive for but it is a reasonable risk take for choosing to move by two ton container at high speed with controls you don't, well, control.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:38 pm

I have some thoughts around this but it belongs in P&R. Tesla is making some of the same "mistakes" that Microsoft did when the government was investigating and suing them left and right.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:48 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:38 pm I have some thoughts around this but it belongs in P&R. Tesla is making some of the same "mistakes" that Microsoft did when the government was investigating and suing them left and right.

Probably fine to either put them in the Tesla thread or here, if we're not intending to override this thread with them. Without having heard your thoughts, I will say that if it involves Tesla and communications blunders, I'm likely with you.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:48 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:38 pm I have some thoughts around this but it belongs in P&R. Tesla is making some of the same "mistakes" that Microsoft did when the government was investigating and suing them left and right.
Probably fine to either put them in the Tesla thread or here, if we're not intending to override this thread with them. Without having heard your thoughts, I will say that if it involves Tesla and communications blunders, I'm likely with you.

I didn't see this before I acted over in P&R but no it is bigger picture domestic politics. I created a thread just because I'm not 100% sure which other thread is being referenced.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:30 pm

Thanks; will check it out.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:26 pm

Rivian going public for all the dollars.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:12 pm

MotorTrend has a first look at the Rivian R1T. Spoiler: they really like it.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:48 pm

About Rivian

Don't want to be unreasonable, but maybe they should be required to deliver at least one vehicle per billion dollars of valuation *before* the IPO?

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) August 28, 2021

If Musk weren't so often talking out his cornhole, I'd actually appreciate his cynicism for all things... Not related to him... (He really does remind of a certain social media darling political figure of the none too distant past in that regard)

Also from my seat, they are seriously ramping up. If it weren't for everyone being so out of whack and there being so many dollars thrown at BEVs at this point, I'd like to get in on RIVIAN. But I have no way of knowing what's up. I have me some F invested in RIVIAN. I have me so me TROW invested in RIVIAN and by means of lots of heavy weighted index funds, I have me some AMZN invested in RIVIAN.

Also I've been by their design facility a few times lately and it's always packed nowadays.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:41 pm

Solid range in miles. Very much not good efficiency given the size of the batteries involved. For reference, this is approximately 50% more energy consumed per mile compared to a Tesla Model X, which is about the closest existing electric vehicle to a Rivian (R1S). Remains to be seen how this will work in real-world usage, though the charging specs of 'over 200 kW initially' should translate to similar charge rates, and therefore longer charge times for the Rivians. I like that they are targeting a jump to 300 kW+ via OTA, though. That will put some pressure on Tesla to not slow-roll their own move to 300 kW.

Glad they came in over 300 miles EPA. I think that's a big mental number for buyers at this price range.

To compare the R1S to the X, since they are fairly similar in size and form factor--both AWD 7-seater SUVs:
R1S - 135 kWh battery, 316 mi range, 49 kWh/100 mi, $70k starting
X - 100 kWh battery, 371 mi range, 32 kWh/100 mi, $99k starting

$30k lower entry price on the R1S, higher rated tow capacity, and greater off-road capability buy a lot of acceptance for inefficiency, though. I think my disappointment comes from the fact that Rivian is the non-Tesla manufacturer that seems to be doing things right in terms of building for BEVs from the ground up, yet they are not at all competitive on the efficiency front. I expect that from the e-trons and I-Paces of the world. I hoped for more from Rivian.

But these numbers are perfectly fine for the target market, I think. Rivian will sell as many as they can make at their announced price points. Hopefully the R1S also puts some price pressure on the X, which has gotten far too expensive again.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:05 pm

These are exactly the types of issues I wonder about with autonomous vehicles:

Unfortunately they cop out on the trolley problem by saying the vehicle would just stop. The real problem comes in if stopping would kill everyone in the vehicle.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm

When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 pm

MotorTrend took an R1T on a cross-country off-road trek.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:51 pm

Cool story and great idea. One of the things I want to do is a CONUS state by state tour in a Tesla but I'll keep it on the asphalt.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:59 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:51 pm Cool story and great idea. One of the things I want to do is a CONUS state by state tour in a Tesla but I'll keep it on the asphalt.

Samesies.

I'm knocking out southwest Utah and northern AZ next month, plus US 50 in CO later this month. Will hit several about a dozen NPS sites between the two trips.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:07 am

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.

You're in your 70s?!?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 am

pr0ner wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:07 am
LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.
You're in your 70s?!?

No, he's a quinquagenarian.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:43 am

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 am
pr0ner wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:07 am
LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.
You're in your 70s?!?
No, he's a quinquagenarian.

I hope that's what he meant!

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:27 am

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 am
pr0ner wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:07 am
LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.
You're in your 70s?!?
No, he's a quinquagenarian.

Thank you. That's a word I could not find in my head anywhere.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:50 am

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:27 am
stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 am
pr0ner wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:07 am
LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:30 pm When I was young I used to bike ride dressed in black at night daily. Now that I'm a septuagenarian, I understand why my father was so angry and my mom was so stressed. 50+ year old me eyes would never see 14 year old me bicycling down the road (who could see everything) while I'm cruising 65 in a 55. And I'm not a drinker so much any more, but nearly everyone else is.
You're in your 70s?!?
No, he's a quinquagenarian.
Thank you. That's a word I could not find in my head anywhere.

Don't thank me, thank Google. No way I was coming up with that on my own. Even looing at it, I don't think I can pronounce it.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm

GM bolt production shuts down due to shortage of battery packs. There is still a lot of supply chain disruption happening out in the economy.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:40 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm There is still a lot of supply chain disruption happening out in the economy.

Oh if you could see the emails and extranet postings about shutdowns that I see... And the increases in aftermarket "requests". There are staffs of people working around the clock to make sure we demonstrate "supply chain resiliency" and I don't envy them. I hope they make a lot more money than I do and have a way better constitution.