Octopus Overlords

Daehawk wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:01 pm In China they prefer to stab kindergartners.

Because only the military, police, and paramilitary have firearms. Civilian ownership is verboten.

Daehawk wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:21 pm Ive seen semi auto bb guns that have the blowback and cycle in them using co2 carts. Look real. Course it doesn't kick back and up liek a real one but looks nice.

The simulated bolt/slide moving back and forth with CO2 can be weighted down (and the CO2 calibrated) to simulate recoil. Won't be as good as the real thing, but definitely more realistic than a CO2 pistol.

dbt1949 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:27 am The problem is that it's much cheaper to have regular standard guns with ammo to fit than make blank guns. Not to mention the guns looking more realistic than toy blank guns.

We're talking revolvers here. They can certainly make a different cylinder only capable of handling blanks, and put the real thing back when the movie shooting concludes.

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:03 am

Montag wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:18 pm Cheaper than killing people on the set. Let me make it easier, you can press fit an internal liner. That would not be expensive.

Again, this isn't really a thing. How often does this happen that we need to completely change the industry to solve it?

It's incredibly, incredibly rare. I can find two incident of actors dying from prop guns due to projectiles being left in them. (I'm not counting Hexum - a replica incapable of firing bullets would have had the same effect.) That's two in how many millions of man-hours of film and television where prop guns are involved? As much as they're used, and as rare as any real injuries or deaths are, they way things are set up seems to be working almost perfectly. In the same time period, I found three times as many deaths due to horses, and many, many times as many deaths from aircraft accidents.

It's a tragedy, but it's not something that needs to be 'fixed' beyond making an example out of the AD/armorer responsible.

Agree. Freak accident. Move along.

Although to be fair I’m not sure this is getting any more press than a school shooting. (Maybe it is, I’m trying to read less ‘news’ these days).

Celebrity news always gets more press. Imagine if Alec Baldwin had shot up a school.

McNutt wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:02 am Celebrity news always gets more press. Imagine if Alec Baldwin had shot up a school.

Yup - it was still the leading story on most cable news shows this morning. It's not like anything else is happening...

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:08 am

McNutt wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:02 am Celebrity news always gets more press. Imagine if Alec Baldwin had shot up a school.

Yup - it was still the leading story on most cable news shows this morning. It's not like anything else is happening...

Hollywood and Trump adjacent. Of course it's all anyone is talking about.

Jr. doesn't pass up a money making opportunity-

https://ktla.com/news/donald-trump-jr-s ... movie-set/

The shirts retail for $27.99 and appeared online after Baldwin accidentally fired a prop gun on a movie set, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring director Joel Souza, Insider reported.

The T-shirts include the tagline “guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people.”

Wow. I was actually surprised he would stoop that low. I know I shouldn't have been.

And proving yet again that the GOP has no sense of irony.

Where in which this is the most obvious case and perhaps only time (scenario wise, not specifically) when truly the person firing the gun had absolutely NO intention of even firing a gun.... and so it was indeed the Gun that killed someone this time, not ‘the shooter’.

So fucking annoying when they think they have a ‘gotcha’ but don’t realize it’s actually not one, but their people eat it anyway.

McNutt wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:02 am Celebrity news always gets more press. Imagine if Alec Baldwin had shot up a school.

See, I've only ever seen it as an on-set tragedy first, celebrity second. I see it getting exposure because it's a tragedy and people have wanted to understand the circumstances behind the accident. In fact, it took a few stories for me to realize Alec Baldwin was actually the one that fired the gun, mostly because early stories were unclear.

McNutt wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:57 pm Wow. I was actually surprised he would stoop that low. I know I shouldn't have been.

I am no longer surprised that a Trump can always go lower.

I was clearly mistaken for wondering how a single live round made it on to the film set:

Mendoza confirmed that around 500 rounds of ammunition were found on set, and that the evidence will be handed to the FBI. Forbes reports that those findings include “a mix of suspected live rounds, blanks, and dummy bullets, and three firearms: the working gun discharged by Baldwin—which they found other rounds in—a real gun modified so that it was non-functioning and a plastic gun that does not shoot.”

Guess: The effing idiots were using the gun for target practice between shoots (this has, I believe, been confirmed), and were storing their live rounds in the same area as the dummy rounds and blanks.

Somebody really should be charged with negligent homicide on this, and I'm not talking Baldwin.

Holy crap! How can any set be that screwed up? This is insanity.

Unagi wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:08 pm And proving yet again that the GOP has no sense of irony.

Where in which this is the most obvious case and perhaps only time (scenario wise, not specifically) when truly the person firing the gun had absolutely NO intention of even firing a gun.... and so it was indeed the Gun that killed someone this time, not ‘the shooter’.

So fucking annoying when they think they have a ‘gotcha’ but don’t realize it’s actually not one, but their people eat it anyway.

A person pointed the gun at someone and pulled the trigger. While not intentional, and ultimately the result of many people fucking up, the gun didn't go off by itself.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is stupid. But that doesn't make the reverse true.

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:24 pm Guess: The effing idiots were using the gun for target practice between shoots (this has, I believe, been confirmed), and were storing their live rounds in the same area as the dummy rounds and blanks.

Somebody really should be charged with negligent homicide on this, and I'm not talking Baldwin.

I heard this on the news last night as well. I don't get how any of that could be allowed to happen. None of it. Any target practice, much less with a prop, live rounds on set, prop gun not being properly handled irrespective of whether or not it was properly stored at lunch. Sooo many failures. Gross negligence is understatement. It was a series of gross negligences if the report was true. And all that said, I still sat and wondered why it took so much of the News time. As stated up thread, this isn't rampant. It's a tragedy. It's likely a crime. It's gonna fuck a lot of people up for long time... for life even but sadly there's lots more important stuff out there that needs news focus.

Alefroth wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:32 pm Jr. doesn't pass up a money making opportunity-

https://ktla.com/news/donald-trump-jr-s ... movie-set/

The shirts retail for $27.99 and appeared online after Baldwin accidentally fired a prop gun on a movie set, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring director Joel Souza, Insider reported.

The T-shirts include the tagline “guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people.”

Does that sell as well as his "Let them eat cake" TShirt?

I don't understand why they just don't use fake guns that can't take live rounds in movies. Or am I just woefully unaware of how this all works?

hepcat wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:16 am I don't understand why they just don't use fake guns that can't take live rounds in movies. Or am I just woefully unaware of how this all works?

Because some idiots can't tell the difference.

I know I wouldn't be able to, to be fair. My knowledge of guns is about nil. I'd like to think they would just say "from now on, no real guns anywhere near a movie set...period". But I see your point that some moron would bring a real gun and it would get lost amongst the fake ones.

How about this, from now on all real guns are colored a bright pink and have a very pretty unicorn on the handle. It serves a dual purpose in making it clear what's a real gun, and being a deterrent for people looking for a penis extension.

Personally, I just always assume everything boils down to $$$$. That there are additional costs associated with getting appropriate fake guns.

I've heard of some productions already turning to using Airsoft guns.

Rumpy wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:04 pm I've heard of some productions already turning to using Airsoft guns.

"Assistant Director injured on set as prop gun discharges. Curmudgeonly voice in background heard to yell, "I told you you'd shoot your eye out!"

hepcat wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:13 am How about this, from now on all real guns are colored a bright pink and have a very pretty unicorn on the handle. It serves a dual purpose in making it clear what's a real gun, and being a deterrent for people looking for a penis extension.

I was thinking more of hidden but scannable NFC tags inside the handle area so the weapon is a trackable asset. EVERYONE who sees a weapon is welcome to scan the NFC tag (can be done with most smartphones), which also serves to "track" the weapon on the set, unless it's in the armorer's safe. ANYONE found a gun, fake or not, that has no tag, has the right to stop ALL production immediately, much like someone can slap the emergency stop button on an assembly line.

Something like this is already in some work trucks for contractors: all tools can be tagged and as they are moved out of the truck, is "checked out", and thus, any missing tools can be spotted right away. The extra scanning builds a safety culture that prevents extraneous weapons from entering the premises.

That's actually a great idea, Kasey. But I wouldn't be surprised if some form of that is already in use.

Rumpy wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:21 pm That's actually a great idea, Kasey. But I wouldn't be surprised if some form of that is already in use.

Pretty sure it was. I know I'm not that smart.

It doesn't matter how great the idea is if people skirt the rules.

Yeah, the key thing here is that the rules weren't being followed, ie the AD wasn't doing his job making sure the armorer was doing their job properly. So while they might have had a system in place for all we know, security on set wasn't being paid attention to.

I had a long post written out yesterday, but apparently didn't submit it. Short version: When it comes to guns that actually make a bang, you could get by with fake guns within a limited range of settings. Modern would be easy. Get some M4s, MP5s, a few generic pistols and revolvers, and an AK variant and you'd be good for 90% of films set in the modern day. For anything not taking place today, however, it becomes impractical to have a supply of guns that will fire blanks but not bullets. You'd have two choices - have them hand-made to order, individually, or modify real ones. A lot of the time on that sort of thing the studios simply rent real guns from reenactors or private collectors, so modifying them would be out. Hand making a bunch of new guns for each production would be impractical, not just from a financial angle, but also due to the sheer amount of time it takes for a gunsmith to custom build a safe, firing, non-shooting gun to each film's requirements. Prop shops whip out background props in a heartbeat, and every time the situation on set changes, they can modify them or make new ones by working late that night. It's a lot different when it comes to authentic, close-up weapons capable of firing actual blanks.

And again, why fix what isn't broken? This has happened twice. Ever. In millions of man-hours of production, this is an accident that has happened only twice. The system that is in place is working beautifully. It isn't an issue of guns being tracked. It isn't an issue of real vs fake guns. This is not a problem that needs solved.

The problem that needs solved is that this particular group was managed in such a way that one or more people were either completely unqualified or unwilling to follow the safety procedures. The people responsible (the armorer, whoever hired her, whoever managed her, and whatever crew was out joy-shooting with the production guns) need to made an example of, and there needs to be a mechanism in place by which staff with safety concerns can, without fear of reprisal, report those concerns to whatever authority exists above the production crew.

Keep the existing system. It works. Just make sure that people don't ignore it again.

Legal Eagle has a good video that discussed all the facts known, and there were a few interesting bits...

Like the armorer was also the assistant propmaster, and she claimed she wasn't able to train the actors properly if she had to do both jobs and was denied hiring another assistant. AND the director was apparently fired from a movie in 2019 (as assistant director) for injuring a cameraman (hearing damage) along with the armorer due to a negligent discharge.

Still, how the round got into the gun is a mystery. The armorer claimed that the guns were always locked up during lunch and overnight in a safe, and there were NO live rounds that she knows of on the set.

So I'm still not sure who to blame, but it's looking like a CSI case, where your focus keeps shifting from one person to another.

Kasey Chang wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:50 pm

So I'm still not sure who to blame, but it's looking like a CSI case, where your focus keeps shifting from one person to another.

Lots of blame to go around, looking like a terribly run production.

Kasey Chang wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:50 pm she claimed she wasn't able to train the actors properly

Irrelevant. Had Alec been fully trained, familiar with the gun in question, and motivated enough to check it himself, sure, the accident could have been avoided. But that wasn't his job. And it was her job.

there were NO live rounds that she knows of on the set

Um...

Mendoza confirmed that around 500 rounds of ammunition were found on set, and that the evidence will be handed to the FBI. Forbes reports that those findings include “a mix of suspected live rounds, blanks, and dummy bullets[...]"

Someone is either lying to safe her ass, or completely incompetent. Or both.

I know my job. I know what is and is not my responsibility. I expect that she knew the same. There may be additional blame for others, but she is definitely to blame. Everything after her was someone not verifying or double checking her work. I don't believe for a second that someone down the chain of custody thought it would be cool to stick a live round in the gun after she verified it. Or whatever bizarre logic/story makes it someone else's responsibility.

Edit: I just noticed the "suspected". So I will allow a very slight possibility that she seriously didn't know. But then it would fall pretty heavily on incompetence. An armorer should damn well be able to tell the difference between different types of ammunition.

I'm surprised she would claim she didn't know. Apparently the AD was also in on the target practice? That would make it gross negligence, because if he'd been doing his job properly, he'd have been the first to disallow any of that from taking place. Everything about the production seems to have reeked of corners being cut and not doing their jobs properly. Which makes it look like Alec Baldwin was dealt a bad hand. The bad day he must have been having...

TheMix wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:22 pm I know my job. I know what is and is not my responsibility. I expect that she knew the same.

Not sure how those are related, but in any case that’s a big assumption imo.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:03 am

TheMix wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:22 pm I know my job. I know what is and is not my responsibility. I expect that she knew the same.

Not sure how those are related, but in any case that’s a big assumption imo.

Really? You don't think she knows that it's her job to verify the presence and type, or absence, of ammunition in all of the weapons that are under her care and "locked" up in a safe when not in use?

But perhaps I'm mistaken. I have always assumed that most people know what the responsibilities of their jobs are, from burger flippers to CEOs. I suppose that if most people have no idea what is expected from their jobs, that would explain a lot of incompetence.

Or were you trying to make a joke that she wouldn't know the responsibilities of my job? In which case... whatever.

The former.

My point was you knowing your job and responsibilities (and presumably being good at it) has no bearing on how someone else performs.

As you mention, lots of incompetence out there. Been there myself (but at least I had the self-awareness to move out of those jobs).

I think it’s probably hard for most people to admit: hey, I’m not very good at this job I’m currently doing. I need to be doing something else (or do the hard work of training up to competence if that’s an option/needed). Sometimes it’s just not a good fit though, based on personality, habits, etc.

I suspect this job requires a very ‘detailed oriented’ person that is used to and likes to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s as it were.

There is a difference between knowing your responsibilities and being able to act upon that knowledge. It feels like you are suggesting that she wasn't even aware that one of her responsibilities was to insure that the guns on the set did not have live ammo. That's the part the I don't understand. I get that she didn't do it (as evidence would suggest), but that she didn't even know it was her responsibility? That seems like a stretch.

It kind of feels like we are arguing two different things. I'm not talking about competence at all. There have been plenty of times where I didn't do what I was supposed to. But I knew what I was supposed to do. After the fact, I could look at it and go "whoops... I didn't do what I was supposed to do...". I'm not arguing whether she did a bad job or not (though, again, seems pretty evident); I'm arguing that she did not fulfill her basic responsibilities - and therefore blame falls on her. It sounds like there are a number of other people that likely will also get some additional blame.

Rather than getting further into the weeds about something that is pure speculation at this point, I will just say that being so incompetent/new/irresponsible, whatever, to the point that it makes you unaware of even what you are supposed to be doing or keeping up with, is a thing.

ZERO idea if this was the case with this particular armorer.

I can agree with that. Or accept it at least. It scares me to think that someone in a position like that could be that way. But, as one comedian said, "somewhere there is the world's worst doctor.... and someone has an appointment to see him today..."

Why point a gun at someone and squeeze the trigger at all? Even if you don't believe its loaded?