2012 Elections

[Captain Caveman]

I meant that it is distinct from the previous workplace accusations. I'm definitely ignorant about this topic, but outside of the described unwelcomed groping which is obviously sexual assault, is it illegal for this sort of quid pro quo to be proposed when the man in question is in a position of power and influence but the woman is not an employee of the company? I would imagine so, but perhaps Isgie could pull up the definitive statement on the topic.

[silverjon]

I see. By definition, harassment isn't always illegal. What he did here was harassment ("unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"), but not necessarily of a criminal nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment" target="_blank

[stessier]

I meant that it is distant from the previous accusations. I'm definitely ignorant about this topic, but outside of unwelcomed groping which is obviously sexual assault, is it illegal for this sort of quid pro quo to be proposed when the man in question is in a position of power and influence but the woman is not an employee of the company? I would imagine so, but perhaps Isgie could pull up the definitive statement on the topic.

We should just ask Mr Fed since he's taught classes on the subject.

His quid pro quo was to give her a job, right? As someone who has been through corporate classes for 15 years now (none that Fed has taught, unfortunately, as I assume he ends them all by shouting "Ex parte" which is something I've always really wanted to see), yes, that is most definitely illegal. It's like the textbook definition of sexual harassment, actually - or at least it was in all my classes.

[silverjon]

Contextually, she had asked for assistance in finding a job. If he'd said he'd hire her in exchange for sexual favours, that's different than helping her find a job with someone else.

[stessier]

Contextually, she had asked for assistance in finding a job. If he'd said he'd hire her in exchange for sexual favours, that's different than helping her find a job with someone else.

I didn't read the article, just saw CC's quote about "You want a job, right?" and assumed he was offering her one. If he was just offering her assistance to find a job with someone else, I'd have to go with not sexual harassment, just scummy. (And that is assuming he was just talking and didn't do anything that constitutes assault.) I really should just read the article.

[silverjon]

Like I said, sexual harassment isn't always a criminal act. Look at how much it's defined by corporate or institutional policies, rather than any kind of state or federal law.

What she describes is very much sexual harassment. It's just not something Ms. Bialek has ever been in a position to do much about other than avoid further contact with Mr. Cain.

[Captain Caveman]

To be clear, what she describes is certainly sexual assault.

[silverjon]

To be clear, what she describes is certainly sexual assault.

Yeah, unwanted touch. But it didn't go far enough to lay charges and have them stick.

"And he stopped and took you back to your hotel immediately after you told him to?"
"Yes."
Subtext: What exactly are you complaining about?

[Captain Caveman]

To be clear, what she describes is certainly sexual assault.

Yeah, unwanted touch. But it didn't go far enough to lay charges and have them stick.

"And he stopped and took you back to your hotel immediately after you told him to?"
"Yes."
Subtext: What exactly are you complaining about?

He (allegedly) forcibly pushed her head towards his crotch. Thats a little worse than just unwanted touch, I'd say.

[silverjon]

Yep, but there's no indication he'd opened his fly or anything. He stopped when she asked him to. He didn't try to make her pay for the hotel upgrade, with "services" or otherwise.

I'm not defending Cain in the least. I thought he stank before Ms. Bialek came forward.

I just can't honestly see this having resulted in anything but further grief and humiliation for her if she'd tried to pursue it at the time.

[Mr. Fed]

I meant that it is distinct from the previous workplace accusations. I'm definitely ignorant about this topic, but outside of the described unwelcomed groping which is obviously sexual assault, is it illegal for this sort of quid pro quo to be proposed when the man in question is in a position of power and influence but the woman is not an employee of the company? I would imagine so, but perhaps Isgie could pull up the definitive statement on the topic.

There are two types of sexual harassment: quid pro quo (blow me if you want a job) or hostile work environment (help, I work with [name of forum member here]).

Sexual harassment is illegal under Title VII because it constitutes a form of discrimination. So a quid pro quo job offer -- blow me if you want a job -- is treated like other forms of sexual discrimination, like "I won't hire you because you're a woman." In other words, quid pro quo applies to prospective employees.

The question is whether Cain was a prospective employer, or representing one. It's probably not actionable under Title VII to demand a sexual favor in exchange for offering to use your unofficial influence with a third party employer. If they're talking about getting a job at Cain's company, it's actionable, if not, it may not be.

[silverjon]

^ See?

I am a not-lawyer who talks a lot of crap, but it's knowledgeable crap.

[stessier]

^ See?

I am a not-lawyer who talks a lot of crap, but it's knowledgeable crap.

Oh sure, like we're supposed to just trust a guy who reads the full article and then comments on it intelligently. Like that type of analysis has any place on this board.

[Kraken]

Whether his actions were illegal or not probably won't make much difference; the slimeball factor toasts his campaign either way.

[Holman]

Whether his actions were illegal or not probably won't make much difference; the slimeball factor toasts his campaign either way.

The irony is that next month's suddenly popular anti-Romney will probably be Newt Gingrich.

[Zarathud]

The Cain train is now derailed by bad crisis management. You don't get away from this type of allegation by saying you're just not going to talk about it anymore or suggesting it's unethical to pursue. Cain tossed a can of gasoline on the issue and practically dared any woman to come forward with new allegations.

Now will anyone pay attention to Bachman? She's been desperate enough to try for attention calling Romney a "fiscally responsible sociailst."

[Rip]

Whether his actions were illegal or not probably won't make much difference; the slimeball factor toasts his campaign either way.

The irony is that next month's suddenly popular anti-Romney will probably be Newt Gingrich.

Irony is a clear consciousness of an eternal agility, of the infinitely abundant chaos.

[Kraken]

Whether his actions were illegal or not probably won't make much difference; the slimeball factor toasts his campaign either way.

The irony is that next month's suddenly popular anti-Romney will probably be Newt Gingrich.

Wasn't it Perry's campaign that dished this dirt? He probably thinks he deserves to float back to the top of the bowl.

[Bruce]

I find this part of the US process really odd to watch from the outside.

Most other democracies have their leadership battles behind closed doors and then present a mostly united front to the electorate to try and beat the other team. Having your own team airing the dirty laundry seems an odd way to decide leadership issues.

Is this another factor counting in favour of the imcumbant? Surely half the time the current President gets to run again and so there isn't the same level of battle fought to secure the nomination.

[Exodor]

"You want a job, right?"

That's the most damning line

[Teggy]

All this "machine that doesn't want a businessman to become president" talk is making him sound a little nutty.

[Mr. Fed]

Cain's campaign manager Mark Block is a daily joy. He's like a character on an edgy HBO drama.

[El Guapo]

All this "machine that doesn't want a businessman to become president" "everything that Herman Cain says" talk is making him sound a little nutty.

Mortoned.

[Rip]

Not surprising the more I find out about Cain's accuser the less I am likely to find them credible.

A woman who settled a sexual harassment complaint against GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain in 1999 complained three years later at her next job about unfair treatment, saying she should be allowed to work from home after a serious car accident and accusing a manager of circulating a sexually charged email, The Associated Press has learned.

To settle the complaint at the immigration service, Kraushaar initially demanded thousands of dollars in payment, a reinstatement of leave she used after the accident earlier in 2002, promotion on the federal pay scale and a one-year fellowship to Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, according to a former supervisor familiar with the complaint. The promotion itself would have increased her annual salary between $12,000 and $16,000, according to salary tables in 2002 from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management.

Kraushaar said Tuesday she did not remember details about the complaint and did not remember asking for a payment, a promotion or a Harvard fellowship. Bennett, her lawyer, declined to discuss the case with the AP, saying he considered it confidential. Kraushaar left her job at the immigration service after dropping the complaint in 2003, and she went to work at the Treasury Department.

So if she can't remember details about something way after the incident we are supposed to rely on her memories of it? And because Cain didn't recall information about it he is hiding something?

Kraushaar's complaint was based on supervisors denying her request to work full time from home after a serious car accident in 2002, three former supervisors said. Two of them said Kraushaar also was denied previous requests to work from home before the car accident.

The complaint also cited as objectionable an email that a manager had circulated comparing computers to women and men, a former supervisor said. The complaint claimed that the email, based on humor widely circulated on the Internet, was sexually explicit, according to the supervisor, who did not have a copy of the email. The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because "in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on." Women were like computers because "even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval."

Kraushaar told the AP that she remembered the complaint focusing on supervisors denying her the opportunity to work from home after her car accident. She said other employees were allowed to work from home.

Sounds to me like someone that would cause whatever fuss they could to get what they want. The e-mail sounded funny to me and complaining about it was petty.

Maybe she flirted with Cain just hoping he would bite so she could sue?

[Freezer-TPF-]

Cain's campaign manager Mark Block is a daily joy. He's like a character on an edgy HBO drama.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that "Cain for President" is a stealth reality show.

[Carpet_pissr]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

[Pyperkub]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

He's not (a front runner). Romney has as much money as he needs. The only one of the current GOP that might have challenged him is Perry (and maybe Gingrich), but they've both imploded, as is Cain, while he coasts along. This is reality TV, and Cain makes great fodder for that - from his 9-9-9 sound bite plan, to the electrified fence with alligators, to this.

[Rip]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

I would agree but then I examine the other candidates and am much less surprised.

Give me a Jindal or Daniels first any day. I am actually reduced to having to reconsider Gingrich.

[Pyperkub]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

I would agree but then I examine the other candidates and am much less surprised.

Give me a Jindal or Daniels first any day. I am actually reduced to having to reconsider Gingrich.

The funny/strange/horrifying thing is that I can't see any of them winning a nomination with how far to the right the GOP has gone, although Romney is well on his way...

[Rip]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

I would agree but then I examine the other candidates and am much less surprised.

Give me a Jindal or Daniels first any day. I am actually reduced to having to reconsider Gingrich.

The funny/strange/horrifying thing is that I can't see any of them winning a nomination with how far to the right the GOP has gone, although Romney is well on his way...

So the GOP has strayed to the right and how does that help Romney win nomination? I don't see him getting any more support from the base than he has. Once the others start to drop whomever the anti-romney is they should have enough to beat him. I don't know a single republican who prefers Romney outside this forum.

[Captain Caveman]

Oh jeez... Watch Rick Perry have a massive brain fart during tonight's GOP debate.

Oops.

[Mr. Fed]

Oh jeez... Watch Rick Perry have a massive brain fart during tonight's GOP debate.

Oops.

Anyone can have a brain fart.

What's bad about that clip is his utter inability to navigate out of it with any grace or skill.

[Grundbegriff]

"I would do away with the Education..."

Instead of eliminating education, maybe he should double down.

[Kraken]

Ron Paul missed a golden opportunity too. Instead of helpfully suggesting the EPA, he could have supplied the DoD.

[Exodor]

Oh jeez... Watch Rick Perry have a massive brain fart during tonight's GOP debate.

Oops.

Anyone can have a brain fart.

What's bad about that clip is his utter inability to navigate out of it with any grace or skill.

Watching him is physically painful

I think I prefer drunk Perry

[Victoria Raverna]

Not surprising the more I find out about Cain's accuser the less I am likely to find them credible.

A woman who settled a sexual harassment complaint against GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain in 1999 complained three years later at her next job about unfair treatment, saying she should be allowed to work from home after a serious car accident and accusing a manager of circulating a sexually charged email, The Associated Press has learned.

To settle the complaint at the immigration service, Kraushaar initially demanded thousands of dollars in payment, a reinstatement of leave she used after the accident earlier in 2002, promotion on the federal pay scale and a one-year fellowship to Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, according to a former supervisor familiar with the complaint. The promotion itself would have increased her annual salary between $12,000 and $16,000, according to salary tables in 2002 from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management.

Kraushaar said Tuesday she did not remember details about the complaint and did not remember asking for a payment, a promotion or a Harvard fellowship. Bennett, her lawyer, declined to discuss the case with the AP, saying he considered it confidential. Kraushaar left her job at the immigration service after dropping the complaint in 2003, and she went to work at the Treasury Department.

So if she can't remember details about something way after the incident we are supposed to rely on her memories of it? And because Cain didn't recall information about it he is hiding something?

Kraushaar's complaint was based on supervisors denying her request to work full time from home after a serious car accident in 2002, three former supervisors said. Two of them said Kraushaar also was denied previous requests to work from home before the car accident.

The complaint also cited as objectionable an email that a manager had circulated comparing computers to women and men, a former supervisor said. The complaint claimed that the email, based on humor widely circulated on the Internet, was sexually explicit, according to the supervisor, who did not have a copy of the email. The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because "in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on." Women were like computers because "even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval."

Kraushaar told the AP that she remembered the complaint focusing on supervisors denying her the opportunity to work from home after her car accident. She said other employees were allowed to work from home.

Sounds to me like someone that would cause whatever fuss they could to get what they want. The e-mail sounded funny to me and complaining about it was petty.

Maybe she flirted with Cain just hoping he would bite so she could sue?

But that doesn't mean Cain didn't sexually harass her. Just because the victim is not credible doesn't mean the accused is innocent.

Maybe Cain specially targetted women that are not credible?

[Arcanis]

Not surprising the more I find out about Cain's accuser the less I am likely to find them credible.

A woman who settled a sexual harassment complaint against GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain in 1999 complained three years later at her next job about unfair treatment, saying she should be allowed to work from home after a serious car accident and accusing a manager of circulating a sexually charged email, The Associated Press has learned.

To settle the complaint at the immigration service, Kraushaar initially demanded thousands of dollars in payment, a reinstatement of leave she used after the accident earlier in 2002, promotion on the federal pay scale and a one-year fellowship to Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, according to a former supervisor familiar with the complaint. The promotion itself would have increased her annual salary between $12,000 and $16,000, according to salary tables in 2002 from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management.

Kraushaar said Tuesday she did not remember details about the complaint and did not remember asking for a payment, a promotion or a Harvard fellowship. Bennett, her lawyer, declined to discuss the case with the AP, saying he considered it confidential. Kraushaar left her job at the immigration service after dropping the complaint in 2003, and she went to work at the Treasury Department.

So if she can't remember details about something way after the incident we are supposed to rely on her memories of it? And because Cain didn't recall information about it he is hiding something?

Kraushaar's complaint was based on supervisors denying her request to work full time from home after a serious car accident in 2002, three former supervisors said. Two of them said Kraushaar also was denied previous requests to work from home before the car accident.

The complaint also cited as objectionable an email that a manager had circulated comparing computers to women and men, a former supervisor said. The complaint claimed that the email, based on humor widely circulated on the Internet, was sexually explicit, according to the supervisor, who did not have a copy of the email. The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because "in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on." Women were like computers because "even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval."

Kraushaar told the AP that she remembered the complaint focusing on supervisors denying her the opportunity to work from home after her car accident. She said other employees were allowed to work from home.

Sounds to me like someone that would cause whatever fuss they could to get what they want. The e-mail sounded funny to me and complaining about it was petty.

Maybe she flirted with Cain just hoping he would bite so she could sue?

But that doesn't mean Cain didn't sexually harass her. Just because the victim is not credible doesn't mean the accused is innocent.

Maybe Cain specially targetted women that are not credible?

2 things. 1 if she isn't credible it means we can't really trust her. So Yes it is possible that Cain did these things but it is just as possible he didn't (with her) and this is just a hatchet job. 2 If he did target women who weren't credible then I want him as president since he can apparently see the future. He allegedly harassed her in 99 and all of the reports of things hurting her credibility happened after that.

I had high hopes for Cain as a nominee and if he did these things he should be flogged IMO. I have no expectations of actual journalism from the media (all of them) so until they can provide something more than allegations against him that is credible then I don't really care what they have to say.

[Captain Caveman]

Mike Tyson as Herman Cain.

[Arcanis]

Mike Tyson as Herman Cain.

That was good.

[Holman]

2 things. 1 if she isn't credible it means we can't really trust her. So Yes it is possible that Cain did these things but it is just as possible he didn't (with her) and this is just a hatchet job. 2 If he did target women who weren't credible then I want him as president since he can apparently see the future. He allegedly harassed her in 99 and all of the reports of things hurting her credibility happened after that.

I had high hopes for Cain as a nominee and if he did these things he should be flogged IMO. I have no expectations of actual journalism from the media (all of them) so until they can provide something more than allegations against him that is credible then I don't really care what they have to say.

Benefit of the doubt and all that. But:

1) It's not like every successful executive goes around dogged by sexual harassment charges from multiple accusers. One case could be an unfortunate misunderstanding, but several cases make you go Hmmm.

2) While we may never know what actually transpired between Cain and his accusers, we can take the measure of Cain as a leader by watching how he handles this eruption. So far he's been pretty terrible.

3) Cain wants to spin this as Herman vs. the Big Bad Media. Since even Cain admits that the accusations and settlements did happen, in what universe would these revelations not be news? When the whole basis of his candidacy is his competence as a business executive, anything that reflects on that competence is going to get scrutiny.

Cain was an idiot to put himself up for nomination. You can bet that Bill Clinton didn't enter the arena expecting never to have to deal with the skeletons in his closet.