Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Kurth]

Contrary to my 'in-defense-of-the-X' commentary upthread, I am not trying to convince you to get the Tesla. I think you'd probably be very happy with the Rivian. My main thrust there was to hit the perceived negatives you saw in the X, as they've all wound up being major positives for us in the long run. Either of these cars is likely to serve you very well.

I appreciate the commentary. Very helpful. Honestly, the price of the Rivian is the biggest thing that would convince me to get the Tesla. Maybe I’ll feel different after driving one, but I just can’t get my head around the $90K price of the R1S.

[GreenGoo]

Not likely to surprise you, but I'd get him a used electric. I'm assuming you have at least an outlet available where he parks at your house. You can pretty easily get a full electric with 200+ miles of range for that price.

My research shows that Zax is right, and if you are looking to save money (on fuel and maintenance) then an EV is the way to go. I realize it feels like you are being cautious by buying a car with both engines, but an EV is less likely to run out of juice than an ICE is to run out of gas, given that the EV will warn you AND take steps to prevent you from running out.

Is remembering to charge your EV harder than remembering to buy gas? Personally I don't think so.

Some people argue that EVs have a harder time in cold weather, but my research has shown that it is mostly a decrease in range of about 10%, which I found to be acceptable. The last time I discussed this with someone who suggested EVs were a problem in cold weather, I pointed out that AAA had over 400,000 calls to boost car batteries over a 6 month period. I don't think cold weather is uniquely an EV problem.

Of course if you're not looking at PHEVs, and just an HEV, then you get all the costs of both engines, plus the ICE maintenance, without much in the way of fuel savings. There's a reason that here in Canada HEVs get zero federal grants, but most PHEV get the maximum.

I briefly considered the KIA PHEV Sportage, but it's probably too big for your son (it's not big, but still bigger than needed for 1 driver, or 1 driver and a couple of friends). The main consideration was the significantly discounted purchase price compared for their EVs, but in the end the research I read showed that it would cost *much* more to maintain, and if I or my wife got lazy and never charged it (using the ICE most of the time) then it becomes just a more expensive ICE car.

My problem is that I'm trying to buy a single car that can do everything for a family of 5, as cheaply as possible. The EV market is *really* good at single passenger city driving. If you buy an EV for your son, you will have a LOT of selection. Maybe too much, due to decision paralysis. Your use-case is where EVs are the most exciting.

I think an important question is how long you/he intends to own it. The longer you own an EV, the more you save. But if you plan on selling within 5 years, you can still do fine with a (newish) ICE car. My wife is trying to convince me to go ICE (just because of purchase price), but I'm not budging. Our car use is practically custom made for all the benefits of an EV. The upfront cost though, is intimidating.

edit: I see follow up comments from others and I agree with pretty much all of them. This is a pro-EV thread, but my independent research agrees with them on most of the theory (2 engines are more expensive than one, etc). I wasn't sold on EVs until I started researching. Now I'm very pro, even if not a zealot.

Lastly, the used EV market in my area is a desert. They are few and far between. So new it is.

[GreenGoo]

So with two hybrids currently in our stable, I’ve decided to finally plunge into an all electric for our next car. And the winner is:

Kia EV9

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/kia-ev ... -best.html

A bit spendy for the one or two below the top trim that I want (horribly named ‘Land’) but lots of credits and rebates gets the price way down off MSRP.

I’m ready!

Oh f**k! I just sat in one this past weekend. I LOVED it. And yes, about $10K CAD more than the EV6, assuming higher tier package. However, I've decided to get the smaller EV6 for various reasons. Mostly because of how we will use it, rather than anything specific to the car itself. I should mention that I was considering the EV9 due to increased interior space, and I think it meets that criteria well. I called it a "minier-van"

[GreenGoo]

F150 Lightening?

If I were just buying for me, the F150 Lightening would definitely be in the running.

Ok, I can't let this go any longer. The truck is electric, not pale.

[Kurth]

So with two hybrids currently in our stable, I’ve decided to finally plunge into an all electric for our next car. And the winner is:

Kia EV9

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/kia-ev ... -best.html

A bit spendy for the one or two below the top trim that I want (horribly named ‘Land’) but lots of credits and rebates gets the price way down off MSRP.

I’m ready!

Oh f**k! I just sat in one this past weekend. I LOVED it. And yes, about $10K CAD more than the EV6, assuming higher tier package. However, I've decided to get the smaller EV6 for various reasons. Mostly because of how we will use it, rather than anything specific to the car itself. I should mention that I was considering the EV9 due to increased interior space, and I think it meets that criteria well. I called it a "minier-van"

I think that EV6 is really sharp! They also must be selling well as I’m starting to see them everywhere I go.

[GreenGoo]

Yes, I'm getting really close to buying. Wait time is still going to be 3ish months, give or take, assuming I don't want exactly what's on the lot (which is only a handful of cars).

Excited! So is my daughter, not because she wants to drive, just because our current car is as old as she is

[Carpet_pissr]

F150 Lightening?

If I were just buying for me, the F150 Lightening would definitely be in the running.

Ok, I can't let this go any longer. The truck is electric, not pale.

YES! So proud of myself for not posting about that (first). It took some self control, I won’t lie.

[Carpet_pissr]

Re: “minier van” comment, I can’t believe no one has a mini-van EV out yet. That’s crazy. I have to think whoever is first is going to reap some big rewards.

[GreenGoo]

Re: “minier van” comment, I can’t believe no one has a mini-van EV out yet. That’s crazy. I have to think whoever is first is going to reap some big rewards.

It's my understanding that minivans aren't cool, that everyone wants an SUV, and they basically serve the same function. I was opposed to SUVs originally, because they were being sold as "sports utility" i.e. offroad, which I thought was ridiculously stupid branding with no actual functional value.

But that was 20+ years ago, everything is an SUV now, and all mid-sized SUVs are identical looking (I mean, seriously, I sometimes can't tell a manufacturer, let alone model, when I see the profile of a mid-sized SUV on the road). I've since become resigned to the fact that cars are SUVs now. Period.

The Ioniq 5 (and Hyundai in general) is a bit boxy. My daughter hated it. I liked it just because it was different.

[Zaxxon]

I think that EV6 is really sharp! They also must be selling well as I’m starting to see them everywhere I go.

When we checked out the EV9 this weekend, it was interesting--I saw at least a few EV6s right outside the showroom. I asked the salesdude to see the EV9, and it took him > 10 min to find one--one of two hidden in the back of the lot. I think it's largely a supply issue right now of the EV9 vs EV6, but it was striking. 2 EV9s in this Denver-leading Kia dealer's lot, vs at least 50 Tellurides. Kia's trying, but as with most traditional manufacturers, they're just kinda trying. It's now mid-2024 and they still know where their bread is buttered.

[GreenGoo]

My local dealership had a single EV9, that was already sold. He let us sit in it and look around. I didn't ask for a test drive. Supply does seem to be an issue. That said, it's a brand new model and Canada is not a priority, apparently.

However, the EV6 selection wasn't great either. I fully expect to wait 3 months at a minimum if I do buy one.

[GreenGoo]

My plan is to take my wife to look at the Mach-E and test drive it, then do the same with the EV6. I expect that she will hate both of them, because she drives a minivan now and change is hard and scary. Then I will decide on the EV6

[Zaxxon]

I fully expect to wait 3 months at a minimum if I do buy one.

My plan is to take my wife to look at the Mach-E and test drive it, then do the same with the EV6. I expect that she will hate both of them, because she drives a minivan now and change is hard and scary. Then I will decide on the EV6

Pro tip: order it now, then do the test drives, then get the car that much sooner! Profit?

[Kurth]

F150 Lightening?

If I were just buying for me, the F150 Lightening would definitely be in the running.

Ok, I can't let this go any longer. The truck is electric, not pale.

YES! So proud of myself for not posting about that (first). It took some self control, I won’t lie.

I blame stessier! I was just copying him.

[GreenGoo]

I hope people realize that we correct typos in good humour around here. Everyone makes typos. Every. One.

[Zaxxon]

I hope people realize that we correct typos in good humour around here. Everyone makes typos. Every. One.

Humor. You filthy animal

[Kurth]

Another EV thought: My son (a mechanical engineer in training) suggests leasing an EV. I'm not usually a fan of leasing cars, but his argument is that EVs are improving at such a fast clip, it makes a lot of sense to lease one now, planning to turn it in and for another lease or possibly a purchase in 3 years.

As I look at the numbers, it seems like I could lease an R1S for ~$30K or a Model Y for ~$18K over three years.

The R1S is still too expensive, but that Y at $6K a year is more attractive.

Also looking at used Model Ys and seeing quite a few. Like this 2021 Long Range Dual Motor AWD Model Y with 28K miles for $31,800.

That's like $19K less than the $50,630 I'm seeing on the Tesla website for a similarly equipped new Model Y.

[stessier]

If the model Y is on the table, you should review the Mach E as they are the same size (ok, Model Y is fractionally larger).

[Zaxxon]

Also note that if you don’t qualify for the fed incentive due to income but lease a vehicle that would otherwise qualify, the credit can be rolled into the lease.

[Kurth]

Also note that if you don’t qualify for the fed incentive due to income but lease a vehicle that would otherwise qualify, the credit can be rolled into the lease.

Yep, but sadly, Tesla is already baking that into the numbers on their website, so that doesn't really help. Also, I realized I was looking at total due at signing without fees/taxes. Those balloon the total due at signing from $2,999 to $5,488 which brings the total cost of the lease for 3 years to just over $21K. That feels . . . less good.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, not good enough to convince me to lease.

[GreenGoo]

Yep, but sadly, Tesla is already baking that into the numbers on their website, so that doesn't really help. Also, I realized I was looking at total due at signing without fees/taxes. Those balloon the total due at signing from $2,999 to $5,488 which brings the total cost of the lease for 3 years to just over $21K. That feels . . . less good.

I pride myself on being a data and numbers guy, but leasing is where that all falls down. I just can't bring myself to spend 10's of thousands of dollars just to "rent" a car and give it back at the end. It just feels wrong, no matter how the numbers work out.

It doesn't help that I still own my minivan 17 years after buying it, meaning I'm not car hopping every 3 years. The car before that was 5 years and we only traded it in because we needed something bigger.

I think I'm literally incapable of leasing, even if you show me the depreciation of a new car as it drives off the lot and cost of operating it over the next 3 years as compared to leasing for 3 years.

[LordMortis]

I am also not a fan of leasing but if I were to get a BEV, leasing would be on the table, if only because I don't yet trust the longevity of batteries not the cost of mid to long term maintenance on said battery and the maintenance on the rest of the more complex stuff innate to the vehicle to drive, vehicle. I'd probably get a fairly long lease with a smaller monthly payment if possible and then let the car be someone else' problem after.

I'm still thinking my next car will be a plug in hybrid and those maintenance cost concerns and the increasing "...aaS" model for vehicle sales as well as customer as product concerns haunt me generally for a new car purchase.

[Zaxxon]

I pride myself on being a data and numbers guy, but leasing is where that all falls down. I just can't bring myself to spend 10's of thousands of dollars just to "rent" a car and give it back at the end. It just feels wrong, no matter how the numbers work out.

I've never leased, and don't think I'm likely to do so. The only reason I'd consider it is if something like the ability to roll in a credit I'd otherwise not qualify made the numbers move enough to get me over my anti-lease bias. But it hasn't happened yet.

I'm still thinking my next car will be a plug in hybrid and those maintenance cost concerns and the increasing "...aaS" model for vehicle sales as well as customer as product concerns haunt me generally for a new car purchase.

Speaking as someone who's owned two PHEVs, those maintenance/longevity fears are real. I can't imagine buying one at this point, but that's me. Seems very much like a technology whose window of viability was 2016-2020 or so. My FIL has our old Volvo and it's had... numerous issues relating to the PHEV systems. This after our first Volvo PHEV was eventually bought back due to numerous issues relating to the PHEV systems.

Meanwhile no major issues on any of the 6 BEVs in the extended family; the oldest of which are 6+ years old and approaching 100k miles. Small sample sizes, YMMV, etc etc. But these experiences have certainly colored my own views at this point.

[ImLawBoy]

FWIW, I'm about 2.5 years into owning a Volvo PHEV. My only real issue so far was that the electric heating component went out over the winter and they were backed up with replacements (i.e., it was a known issue) so I pretty much had to run on gas most of the winter if I wanted heat. (I did want heat.) Other than that it's been good so far, but I'll report back if I have other issues.

Also FWIW, I imagine whenever i replace the Volvo it will be with a full-on BEV.

[Kurth]

Found another, maybe better, used Model Y, this time on Carvana: 2021 Long Range AWD with 18K miles for $32,990. It’s also at a Carvana facility 40 minutes away, so we could pick it up and inspect and avoid any shipping costs.

Anyone have any experiences using Carvana? Reputable? I’m assuming it’s just a Carmax-like experience.

[GreenGoo]

A PHEV would calm my wife's fears of the unknown, and I did consider it, but in the end it made no sense and I (finally) had to decide what was right for our family over my wife's fears and negativity. That was hard, and has always been difficult for me. My wife does *not* like new ideas or change , and ignoring her as an equal partner in our relationship so as to be able to improve our family's life despite her, is not easy for me. We are MUCH poorer than we should be at this stage in our lives, and that's her fault and mine (for hesitating due to her concerns). I'm not bitter though

The fact that my wife does most of the driving so I'm essentially buying her a car that she is afraid of, makes it extra tough for me.

I think PHEVs are a cool concept but ownership costs vs benefits are just too out of whack to warrant it, *especially* because we only do about 10k km a year, and all of it city. If we had a cottage that we drove 200 km back and forth to every weekend, I might have reconsidered, but we don't.

[Carpet_pissr]

Found another, maybe better, used Model Y, this time on Carvana: 2021 Long Range AWD with 18K miles for $32,990. It’s also at a Carvana facility 40 minutes away, so we could pick it up and inspect and avoid any shipping costs.

Anyone have any experiences using Carvana? Reputable? I’m assuming it’s just a Carmax-like experience.

It's like Carmax but with no physical lots and a 20% markup for funsies.

[ImLawBoy]

I think PHEVs are a cool concept but ownership costs vs benefits are just too out of whack to warrant it, *especially* because we only do about 10k km a year, and all of it city. If we had a cottage that we drove 200 km back and forth to every weekend, I might have reconsidered, but we don't.

I'd argue the opposite. We don't drive a ton living in the city, which means that most days of driving we don't touch the gas - especially when the weather is nice and battery drains slower. If you were driving long distances, you'd use up your battery in the first 20-40 miles (based on capacity, conditions, and driving style, of course) and then you'd be running on a less-efficient-than-standard-hybrid. It's less efficient, as I understand it, because the extra weight of the second engine reduces the energy efficiency.

[Kurth]

Found another, maybe better, used Model Y, this time on Carvana: 2021 Long Range AWD with 18K miles for $32,990. It’s also at a Carvana facility 40 minutes away, so we could pick it up and inspect and avoid any shipping costs.

Anyone have any experiences using Carvana? Reputable? I’m assuming it’s just a Carmax-like experience.

It's like Carmax but with no physical lots and a 20% markup for funsies.

Hmmm. No physical lots? So I’m wrong that this car is at a Carvana facility? It’s just with a private party? So is Carvana just brokering a deal between private parties then? Strange.

[Carpet_pissr]

Found another, maybe better, used Model Y, this time on Carvana: 2021 Long Range AWD with 18K miles for $32,990. It’s also at a Carvana facility 40 minutes away, so we could pick it up and inspect and avoid any shipping costs.

Anyone have any experiences using Carvana? Reputable? I’m assuming it’s just a Carmax-like experience.

It's like Carmax but with no physical lots and a 20% markup for funsies.

Hmmm. No physical lots? So I’m wrong that this car is at a Carvana facility? It’s just with a private party? So is Carvana just brokering a deal between private parties then? Strange.

Was not aware they have lots now, sorry - I am a few years behind.

[Carpet_pissr]

So I found this pretty good thread on reddit comparing the EV-9 and the Rivian (was really trying to find one that also discussed Model X in the mix, but haven't yet).

From everything I have read so far, and being completely brand agnostic (and having driven none of them!):

Rivian R1S (base model, not Plaid)
Pros: Looks (subjective, but I think most would agree), cargo space, big frunk, higher quality interior materials, many say it was just more "fun" to drive than the EV-9, better software (but amazingly lacking both Apple Carplay and Android Auto - wtf?!), and the biggie, and certainly the clincher if you do this at all: off-road capability.
Cons: Price, dealer service availability and wait times on service, less comfortable ride (more like a truck), seating is cramped compared with EV9.

Kia EV-9 GT trim
Pros: Much better ride quality, some say most quiet ride out there, very smooth. Much cheaper. Much better tech in general (cameras, Carplay, driver safety tech (blind spot, auto stops, et al) much better sound system). Much more comfortable seating all over, 800v charging (vs 400 on Rivian)

At some point I will add the X to this as well, but not enough info yet.

The lease comment above make a LOT of sense in theory, esp. for a first year model like the EV-9, and esp. for such a young company like Rivian, but I am team GreenGoo on this...I am not sure I could ever bring myself to do it just out of principle.

I should also add I am only able to consider these because Hyundai is going to buy my Hybrid 22' Santa Fe due to multiple times trying to fix same issue. AFAIK, it's like getting the car, to date, for free (minus the miles you drove before the problem first appeared). And considering that I had to buy in the middle of the worst possible time (or at least on tail end of that period), I would probably come out really well.

[em2nought]

Have any of you installed smoke detectors in your garages? I was urging my college buddy to do that the other day after he showed me his shiny new Tesla. The torque sent my phone from the floor in the front seat to the floor in the back seat. If it was me I might even add a second layer of drywall to the wall between my garage and my house.

[Zaxxon]

More appropriate to remove the smoke detector after eliminating the gas-powered cars from the garage.

[em2nought]

More appropriate to remove the smoke detector after eliminating the gas-powered cars from the garage.

I hope so as they're buying lots of Chyna electric vehicles in Thailand, and parking them under the high rises they live in. I might buy & take a rappelling rope with me.

[Kurth]

I've been trying to nail down how the Tesla Model Y has changed year to year, but it's tough to really get a good read on it. Seems some of this has to do with where the car was manufactured maybe.

For our resident Tesla experts (looking at you Zaxxon!), if you were choosing between a 2021 Long Range AWD Model Y with 18K miles or a 2022 Long Range AWD Model Y with 30K miles, at the same price, which would you opt for?

In other words, should I be focused more on less miles or newer model year?

[Zaxxon]

For our resident Tesla experts (looking at you Zaxxon!), if you were choosing between a 2021 Long Range AWD Model Y with 18K miles or a 2022 Long Range AWD Model Y with 30K miles, at the same price, which would you opt for?

I'd probably opt for the 2021 with fewer miles, but I'm not tied to that; I'd definitely check out both.

The one thing I would not want to get is one of the Ys with the 4680 battery cells--I think that's only the RWD model so shouldn't impact you. At least the initial ones had... not great Supercharging curves.

[Zaxxon]

Dang, the Rivian R1 refresh specs just dropped. Impressive. Specifically, the Dual Max package ($89,900) now has 410 miles of range. This compared to a 7-seat base X with some paint added ($82,990) which is quicker but now 70 miles behind on range (and Rivian is more conservative with their range estimates than Tesla--so it's likely more like 90-100 miles real-world range diff).

[Zaxxon]

I should have included the newsroom link...

[Zaxxon]

The super-duper Kyle Conner deep dive...