LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:49 pm
That's actually one of the cases I was thinking of. But what happens when someone complains about an American Flag tattoo or "In God We Trust?" It's impossible to purge ideology from the ranks.
The solution isn't to depend on tattoos and/or books someone brings to the office.
"Depend on" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that last sentence. First of all, I'd argue that there are situations where you can "depend on" a tattoo or book. If someone has a a swastika tattoo or is carrying around the Protocols, you can pretty much depend on that. (Sure you do a little investigation on top of that, but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty easy.) With a 3% tattoo? Maybe you use that as the reason to open an investigation, but you're not "depending on" it at that point - it's just a data point. The investigation may find out that it's something concerning or not.
Talking about American flag tattoos and the like is the same kind of absurd slippery slope argument as comparing Protocols to Lolita.
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:30 pm
There's always going to be grey in the policy application. Which is the reason for the long sleeves. Have fun sweating your ass off in August in Texas .
But you can't have offensive/obscene tattoos. Sleeves are just to cover up the inoffensive ones.
There are always going to be borderline cases that individual departments will have to exercise judgment on. In practice I think the "all tattoos must be covered" is in part to deal with the grey area cases. Like in those, the department can always say "ok, fine, you can keep your tattoo, but you are required to make sure that it's covered at all times."
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:49 pm
That's actually one of the cases I was thinking of. But what happens when someone complains about an American Flag tattoo or "In God We Trust?" It's impossible to purge ideology from the ranks.
The solution isn't to depend on tattoos and/or books someone brings to the office.
"Depend on" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that last sentence. First of all, I'd argue that there are situations where you can "depend on" a tattoo or book. If someone has a a swastika tattoo or is carrying around the Protocols, you can pretty much depend on that. (Sure you do a little investigation on top of that, but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty easy.) With a 3% tattoo? Maybe you use that as the reason to open an investigation, but you're not "depending on" it at that point - it's just a data point. The investigation may find out that it's something concerning or not.
Talking about American flag tattoos and the like is the same kind of absurd slippery slope argument as comparing Protocols to Lolita.
So the investigation determines whether the tattoo is offensive? Th grounds for termination would still be the tattoo, not someone's thoughts, right? I guess if the investigation uncovers card-carrying membership in some organization that would work.
Also, an American flag is not an absurd slippery slope. The Thin Blue Line flag was inoffensive until it was co-opted by far-right racists.
El Guapo wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:34 am
And are people here really not familiar with Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
I've never heard of it, but I've lived a pretty sheltered life.
I just want to let stess know he is not alone on this. I guess I'm glad I'd never heard of it.
Jeez, you guys are terrible anti-semites.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:25 pm
by Holman
Speaking of Lolita, I wonder how many people open it expecting porn only to discover one of the greatest novels ever written (and not a single sex scene).
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm
by Jaymann
Holman wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:25 pm
Speaking of Lolita, I wonder how many people open it expecting porn only to discover one of the greatest novels ever written (and not a single sex scene).
El Guapo wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:34 am
And are people here really not familiar with Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
I've never heard of it, but I've lived a pretty sheltered life.
I just want to let stess know he is not alone on this. I guess I'm glad I'd never heard of it.
Jeez, you guys are terrible anti-semites.
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:43 pm
by Isgrimnur
coopasonic wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
coopasonic wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:49 pm
That's actually one of the cases I was thinking of. But what happens when someone complains about an American Flag tattoo or "In God We Trust?" It's impossible to purge ideology from the ranks.
The solution isn't to depend on tattoos and/or books someone brings to the office.
"Depend on" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that last sentence. First of all, I'd argue that there are situations where you can "depend on" a tattoo or book. If someone has a a swastika tattoo or is carrying around the Protocols, you can pretty much depend on that. (Sure you do a little investigation on top of that, but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty easy.) With a 3% tattoo? Maybe you use that as the reason to open an investigation, but you're not "depending on" it at that point - it's just a data point. The investigation may find out that it's something concerning or not.
Talking about American flag tattoos and the like is the same kind of absurd slippery slope argument as comparing Protocols to Lolita.
So the investigation determines whether the tattoo is offensive? Th grounds for termination would still be the tattoo, not someone's thoughts, right? I guess if the investigation uncovers card-carrying membership in some organization that would work.
No, the investigation determines whether the individual has more than just (literal) surface ties to racist or anti-semitic or whatever organizations. Is the officer's social media clean, or is it littered with 1488 references? The goal is to find out whether the person is a white supremacist, because that person should not be on the police force.
LawBeefaroni wrote:Also, an American flag is not an absurd slippery slope. The Thin Blue Line flag was inoffensive until it was co-opted by far-right racists.
It's an absurd slippery slope because it is the national symbol of the country and is displayed at every police station and at local, state, and federal buildings throughout the country. The Thin Blue Line flag had no such status.
coopasonic wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
coopasonic wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
Fiddler on the Roof is streaming on Netflix. That'll get you a good part of the way.
It worked for Hamilton.
...and more likely than me going to a museum that doesn't have planes, spaceships or dinosaurs.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:18 pm
by Holman
coopasonic wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, outside of this community and some random stuff on TV shows, I have basically no exposure to any Jewish culture or religion.
I wonder how common this is for many Americans who don't live in big cities (where I assume a certain degree of multiculturalism is the norm). Given that Jewish people are a little more than 2% of the US population and that that number is especially concentrated in a handful of areas, it's probably not unusual.
I grew up Evangelical in the South, but by the time I was old enough to notice these things we lived just outside Birmingham in an area that had for various reasons become "the Jewish suburb." I was a shy kid, but even I went to a half-dozen Bar Mitzvahs for my classmates. I was always surprised later to meet fellow Southerners who said they'd never had a Jewish friend, but I guess I shouldn't have been.
Later I married a Jewish girl, which makes my kids Jewish, although they are secular like their mother and older relatives.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:35 pm
by coopasonic
I grew up in a town of 600. We had two black families and one Indian family. Multi-cultural night was not a thing at my school. My kids are getting a much broader exposure but it is still suburbia.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:01 pm
by dbt1949
It used to be when I read a headline about a bunch of people getting killed in one spot I thought of gangs or a crazy. Now I think of it being caused by Trump supporters.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:30 pm
by Kraken
So...gangs of crazies, then.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:24 am
by Skinypupy
After perpetual victim/attention whore/outrage machine Marjorie Taylor-Greene claimed that Guam was a foreign country, the Guam Delegate and about a dozen Guam National Guard members brought some cookies and books to her office in an attempt to extend a (rather hilarious) olive branch and to educate her about the US Territory.
She responded by sending a letter to the head of the NG and DefSec Austin accusing Guam Del. Michael San Nicolas of "leading more than two dozen National Guard troops to ambush my office unannounced", and claims it's part of a "troubling trend."
Using this to try to get the National Guard removed from around the Capitol. Am I being too paranoid in wondering about whether she wouldn't mind another Capitol riot?
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:54 am
by Paingod
El Guapo wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:33 am
Using this to try to get the National Guard removed from around the Capitol. Am I being too paranoid in wondering about whether she wouldn't mind another Capitol riot?
She kind of strikes me as the kind of cuckoo that would bring a gun in herself to get the job done and go down screaming that she was righteous and justified.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:54 am
by malchior
It is a mix of treason and cuckoo. Is it performative? Is it real? Who cares. That it is happening and her colleagues are shrugging it off is just an indicator that the United States as serious nation is over for the time being.
This has real world effects that I'm already seeing. I had a conversation this morning with a client in Europe where they made an explicit reference to our political instability. It was part of a justification behind a big move of a large company to get their data out of the United States.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:00 pm
by malchior
dbt1949 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:01 pm
It used to be when I read a headline about a bunch of people getting killed in one spot I thought of gangs or a crazy. Now I think of it being caused by Trump supporters.
No. No. He had a "bad day" and was a sex addict. Really. That's the story right now.
dbt1949 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:01 pm
It used to be when I read a headline about a bunch of people getting killed in one spot I thought of gangs or a crazy. Now I think of it being caused by Trump supporters.
No. No. He had a "bad day" and was a sex addict. Really. That's the story right now.
On another random semi-political note, anyone heard from Mr Fed lately? Popehat hasn't tweeted anything for over a week now, which is odd. I miss the snark.
LawBeefaroni wrote:Also, an American flag is not an absurd slippery slope. The Thin Blue Line flag was inoffensive until it was co-opted by far-right racists.
It's an absurd slippery slope because it is the national symbol of the country and is displayed at every police station and at local, state, and federal buildings throughout the country. The Thin Blue Line flag had no such status.
I don't want belabor this one too much but I did say what if someone complains. Not that it would necessarily be a valid complaint.
And I didn't just pull that idea out of my butt.
Prepare for the absurd:
We heard a lot from people who shared this worry the U.S. flag has been weaponized, deliberately redefined as a more conservative symbol owned by some Americans more than others.
"We had a Black Lives Matter rally in our town and there were a lot of people driving by with American flags on the back of their pickup trucks as a counter-protest," said Ben Eagleson, a car mechanic who lives in Olney, Ill. "It was like those of us supporting Black Lives Matter were somehow un-American or something."
...
A lot of people told NPR that kind of national unity and shared meaning feels elusive now. For that reason, many have chosen to fly the flag next to other symbols to give it more personal context.
For some, that means raising the Stars and Stripes along with a "Make American Great Again" banner. For others, the American flag is flying alongside a gay pride banner or Black Lives Matter sign.
From this perspective, it can be understood how the flag can be seen as representative of white (and male) power. Until relatively recently, not only were white men dominant in virtually all aspects of everyday life in this country, but many took active steps to repress potential threats to their power. The flag can therefore serve as a reminder of how the nation has fallen well short of its noble ideals
dbt1949 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:01 pm
It used to be when I read a headline about a bunch of people getting killed in one spot I thought of gangs or a crazy. Now I think of it being caused by Trump supporters.
No. No. He had a "bad day" and was a sex addict. Really. That's the story right now.
On another random semi-political note, anyone heard from Mr Fed lately? Popehat hasn't tweeted anything for over a week now, which is odd. I miss the snark.
dbt1949 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:01 pm
It used to be when I read a headline about a bunch of people getting killed in one spot I thought of gangs or a crazy. Now I think of it being caused by Trump supporters.
No. No. He had a "bad day" and was a sex addict. Really. That's the story right now.
On another random semi-political note, anyone heard from Mr Fed lately? Popehat hasn't tweeted anything for over a week now, which is odd. I miss the snark.
I have it from unreliable sources he is on a
He is on a ninja?
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:07 pm
by Jaymann
The first rule of is...
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:17 pm
by Smoove_B
malchior wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:00 pm
No. No. He had a "bad day" and was a sex addict. Really. That's the story right now.
When the police chief is trying to get you sympathize with the killer at the press conference...
This is almost surreal to see.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:00 pm
by Paingod
I've had some really bad days where I felt like if someone just found my fuse and lit it, a city block would be leveled. Never once did I consider grabbing a gun and just killing some folks to blow off steam. WTF with the cops here?
How can we do a hard reboot on society? What will it take?
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:11 pm
by $iljanus
I'm waiting for certain evangelicals to start blaming victims for tempting the shooter into sin and had it coming.
I cheered for the guy in the movie and disliked the ending....but this real life guy is a POS that needed to be shot.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:54 pm
by Holman
$iljanus wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:11 pm
I'm waiting for certain evangelicals to start blaming victims for tempting the shooter into sin and had it coming.
The killer was an extremely active member of his Southern Baptist Church.
From what I've read today, it doesn't seem that this particular congregation was "right-wing radicalized," and the killer's parents (also church members) provided information that helped the police track him down. But I'm sure there are people online defending his actions as motivated by "misplaced good intentions" or some shit.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:28 pm
by LordMortis
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:11 pm stuff flag stuff etc
I don't find the American flag offensive but I have come to distrust anyone who uses the word patriot. And there seem to be a lot of people popping up with the word patriot in their company name. It's probably as close to the idea of a trigger word for me as you could be. People start throwing it around and I become filled with unease and distrust.
The ides of patriotism used to put a lump in my throat. Now it's invocation makes me raise an eyebrow and look for the exit.
It makes me sad.
Re: Political Randomness
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:40 pm
by Holman
Flag semiotics are complicated.
I'm at the point where an American flag on your porch could go either way, but an American flag on your truck means I assume you're a bigot until I see evidence to the contrary. I'm still trying to articulate what the truck has to do with it, but I guess it's the going out of your way to broadcast that seems suspicious.
I feel the same way about flags in public settings. One flag is patriotic, three flags are celebratory, but dozens of flags are chauvinistically nationalistic to a degree that suggests fascism. (Obviously July 4 provides a traditional exception.)
in the world for this woman.
