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[Apollo]

I'm also tired of it.

This isn't like Vanilla needs to be more appealing to compete with Chocolate.

This is Vanilla losing to a pile of loose dog shit and people talking about how maybe a syrup or sprinkles is what Vanilla needs to do.

The attitude that "It's fine, everything's fine!" as the Democrats fail to change their message on the national level is what is dooming us. The party keeps moving to the Left while the country as a whole has been moving to the Right (on most issues) for decades now. We need to deliver what people ACTUALLY want instead of what we, the Democratic Party, have determined that they SHOULD want.

Kamala, to her credit, understood this and tried to move the party back to the center in her brief run. Unfortunately, she went on the record backing many unpopular stances in her 2020 run, and the GOP dug those up and used them against her.

But, hey, OO R&P has gradually become an echo chamber of Left wing ideology since all the right wingers left or just don't want to get ambushed anymore, and I think that is a reflection of what has been happening all over the web over the last 20 years. Everyone has retreated to a "Safe Space" and show instant hostility to any viewpoints don't agree with Party Ideology. We definitely need some Rip and Grundbegriff, among others, around here again IMHO.

[Alefroth]

We need to deliver what people ACTUALLY want

Who are you to say what people ACTUALLY want?

[GreenGoo]

Who do you mean by YOU. America?

No, I mean you, specifically. But I'm a foreigner so what do I know?

[Apollo]

We need to deliver what people ACTUALLY want

Who are you to say what people ACTUALLY want?

Almost anytime I post anything in R&P you come back with one of these cryptic one liners slamming me. Why not put out your own ideas on what we should be doing out there instead of just taking potshots at others ideas or takes? You're not advancing the discussion with this sort of crap, you're just trolling. I want to start a discussion on what we need to do to get the American public behind us again to stop the country from sliding into Fascism. If people disagree, that's fine but tell me why and what we should do instead, and we can go from there.

[Apollo]

Who do you mean by YOU. America?

No, I mean you, specifically. But I'm a foreigner so what do I know?

Well, I can do that too, and I think YOU are at fault. How do you like them apples?

[GreenGoo]

For the record, I like hearing your opinions and don't want you to get ganged up on until you feel unwelcome.

That said, you're kind of a broken record and we've discussed your point of view before. I'm willing to discuss actions that the dems can take to make progress. I'm not interested in slam pieces disguised as "valid criticism" nor am I interested in discussing anything from anyone who thinks the dems are too far left. The American political system is extreme right, far right, and vaguely centrist. There is no left in America. Let me rephrase. There is no left with any significant impact on American politics.

Too left? Give me 3 policies that the Dems hold that are "too far left", please and thank you.

You're right though, OO is filled with people of similar political views, most of which are as simple as people first. But people only a little first. If that's too far left, then...guilty, I guess. The horror.

[GreenGoo]

Oh, and let's get something out of the way, if it wasn't clear before.

Drumpf et al are burning down your country, but you feel like now is the right time to post a hit piece on problems with the democrats that they need to fix so they can win more in an election 2 years out.

Drumpf is out there with a flame thrower, cackling like a super villain, exactly as he said he would, but today seems to be a pretty good day to focus on the dems problems and what that means 2 years out.

I mean, read the room, my dude.

[Alefroth]

We need to deliver what people ACTUALLY want

Who are you to say what people ACTUALLY want?

Almost anytime I post anything in R&P you come back with one of these cryptic one liners slamming me. Why not put out your own ideas on what we should be doing out there instead of just taking potshots at others ideas or takes? You're not advancing the discussion with this sort of crap, you're just trolling. I want to start a discussion on what we need to do to get the American public behind us again to stop the country from sliding into Fascism. If people disagree, that's fine but tell me why and what we should do instead, and we can go from there.

It seems like figuring out who is responsible for determining what people want is part of the discussion, but if you don't want to answer I understand. I'm a 'left winger' and I don't feel like you represent me.

[Apollo]

...I'm not interested in slam pieces disguised as "valid criticism" nor am I interested in discussing anything from anyone who thinks the dems are too far left. The American political system is extreme right, far right, and vaguely centrist. There is no left in America. Let me rephrase. There is no left with any significant impact on American politics...

Exactly! This is a conservative country for better or worse, so we need to sell our ideology with that in mind. It doesn't mean we have to abandon every Left wing idea in the Democratic party but we need to either ditch or re-configure unpopular ideas (Like DEI or Foreign aid to nations that hate the US, or letting transgender girls play women's sports, just to name a few) and make our main message one that is widely popular with the general public. I know I'm not the only one out there who thinks like this as I read the same sentiment daily in right wing rags like the NY Times and the Atlantic.

I will try to get my thoughts together on the matter and start a dedicated thread in the next week or two and stop hijacking other threads. I will answer your question about where I think the Dems have gone too far to the Left there and maybe we can all find a consensus on a new way forward. Despite what some of you think, I greatly value most of the opinions you guys express on politics even when I disagree, as it is nice to be able to talk to folks who have a similar outlook and aren't up to their elbows in disinformation. That's why I want you guys, most of whom live in Blue states, to know that the perception of Democrats, especially after the Covid shutdowns, is getting worse, even among the Democrats core constituents. We need to Stop, Look, and Listen and find a new path other than just banging our head against the wall and thinking everyone who doesn't support us is an idiot (though many ARE low information voters...Just sayin' ).

[Blackhawk]

We keep having people try to find blame. Don't try to figure out where to point the finger. Instead, spread out the fingers on both hands and point them all. There are a lot of things that went wrong to get us here, from loopholes in the Constitution to failures in education (science itself being controversial, critical thinking, glossed over history that left us blind to past failures), to going too long with no real national challenges leading to complacency, to the decadence and plenty we've been living in, to putting the cart before the horse to bring change (if you want big social changes, you have to start with underlying social infrastructure, not addressing controversial end-game stuff), to the American mentality of "I've got mine."

Our failures weren't a single party, or individual voters. Our failures were a massive, interconnected mess of societal errors that magnified our collective weaknesses until it was only a matter of time before someone took advantage of us.

[Kraken]

Democrats are losing (or have lost maybe) the culture war. Their actual economic and social policies poll pretty well when presented alone, without reference to their origin, and indeed have been successful on the whole. People like healthcare and Social Security. Most Americans believe we need to fight global warming, although they don't prioritize it. The various pieces of Biden's signature legislative achievements are likewise popular when they aren't presented as "Biden policies." Democrats are the party of good government, facing an audience that doesn't believe good government is possible. Republicans win when they prevent Dems from accomplishing anything.

This is not to say that Dems should turn their backs on the marginalized and powerless, and de-emphasizing their messaging won't work, either -- Republicans are very good at making things like litter boxes in the bathrooms the face of the D Party. Rather, I think Dems need to find a charismatic leader who can sell their actual policies and effectively ridicule Rep fearmongering about immigrants eating your cats and dogs. It's not so much content as presentation that needs improvement. Having a D equivalent to Fox Noise wouldn't hurt.

However, we're currently on the verge of the whole system seizing up and harming a lot of people regardless of their political philosophy; Dems will benefit from the dramatic Republican failures that are already in the pipeline, and will most likely perform very well in the midterms without changing anything beyond not being Republicans. All my life, the canard has been that Republicans are evil and Democrats are incompetent, and the electorate swings when it gets sick of whichever force has prevailed for the past four or eight or 12 years.

[Smoove_B]

It doesn't mean we have to abandon every Left wing idea in the Democratic party but we need to either ditch or re-configure unpopular ideas (Like DEI or Foreign aid to nations that hate the US, or letting transgender girls play women's sports, just to name a few) and make our main message one that is widely popular with the general public.

[GreenGoo]

Exactly! This is a conservative country for better or worse, so we need to sell our ideology with that in mind. It doesn't mean we have to abandon every Left wing idea in the Democratic party but we need to either ditch or re-configure unpopular ideas (Like DEI or Foreign aid to nations that hate the US, or letting transgender girls play women's sports, just to name a few) and make our main message one that is widely popular with the general public. I know I'm not the only one out there who thinks like this as I read the same sentiment daily in right wing rags like the NY Times and the Atlantic.

I don't know what to tell you. It already is conservative. There's no "stop not being conservative" to be done.

I started writing a long response about why your "left wing" policies aren't actually left wing at all, but I can't compete with the constant right wing propaganda that you (and many others) clearly suffer from. Your world view is skewed and it's being done to you with lies and warped "facts". Yes, I really mean you are being lied to by your sources of information. It's intentional and obviously working. I know because drumpf is in the white house and he should never have been a viable candidate in 2016. I've just posted some links that came up. They are not definitive nor authoritative. They are just easy to find.

If you don't like my links, find your own.

American foreign aid - Surprise, it's not primarily about helping people, and America as the richest country in the world does less of it by GDP than many other wealthy countries.

Forbes article on DEI - (My own comment here:)The ideology behind DEI, equality, is what emancipated the slaves. Geezus wept. But now he's armed with a russian made AK to keep filthy lefties out of office.

Democratic stance on transgender sports - Shocker - Biden removed protections from transgender athletes prior to the election. Also shocking, Drumpf ran on anti-transgender plank, spending 100's of millions of dollars on an issue that has very little impact to anyone or anything in America. A percentage of a percentage of a percentage. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that this is important to you. There aren't eye rolls big enough for this. Drumpf made you care about something you don't give two shits about, mislead you about what the Dems think about it, then won an election on it. YOU are the problem.

Seriously, I could do this all day. But it should be YOU who does it. Find out the truth about your push button issues, then come back here and we can debate them using facts. Not distortions or emotions. Facts. Stop reading articles that tell you how to feel about things, and start reading articles that tell you the facts. Then decide how you feel about them based on what you know.

That's a start. Good luck.

[gbasden]

It doesn't mean we have to abandon every Left wing idea in the Democratic party but we need to either ditch or re-configure unpopular ideas (Like DEI or Foreign aid to nations that hate the US, or letting transgender girls play women's sports, just to name a few) and make our main message one that is widely popular with the general public.

Yeah. I get that old white dudes are freaking out that they aren't at the apex of the pyramid anymore. I don't think the answer is to tear down gay or trans people or to scrap trying to help minorities in order to protect the status quo. Just because people are afraid of change doesn't mean that we should stop fighting for what is right. The foreign aid thing is particularly dumb. We are scrapping food and medicine that are helping stabilize countries so their people don't feel like fleeing to a first world country is the only option. When did the majority of this country collectively lose both their empathy and their deductive reasoning?

[GreenGoo]

My position is that any attempts to "move" the dems to the right because they are too far "left" is simply right wing propaganda meant to weaken the opponents of the GOP right wing ideology. "don't fight us so hard, it will all be over soon if you just quiet down". The dems are in no way a left wing party, let alone extreme left wing.

That's what drives me absolutely nuts when I hear "the dems are the problem". The dems aren't burning your country to the ground. It's gaslighting of the worst kind.

I challenge anyone, right or left, to discuss their pet issues without using talking points or easy media-fed terms. Don't like DEI? What don't you like about it? Does it have any positives? What are they? Do the negatives outweigh the positives? How so? What is DEI anyway?

Etc.

[ImLawBoy]

We need to deliver what people ACTUALLY want

Who are you to say what people ACTUALLY want?

Almost anytime I post anything in R&P you come back with one of these cryptic one liners slamming me. Why not put out your own ideas on what we should be doing out there instead of just taking potshots at others ideas or takes? You're not advancing the discussion with this sort of crap, you're just trolling. I want to start a discussion on what we need to do to get the American public behind us again to stop the country from sliding into Fascism. If people disagree, that's fine but tell me why and what we should do instead, and we can go from there.

I've tried to engage with you in good faith on this a couple of times, but for whatever reason it hasn't stuck. I'll repeat what I wrote in the Fighting Back thread in case you missed it.

Until the Left does some soul searching and realizes that their views don't excite or interest anyone outside of SJW's and Left Wing activists we're going to be in Big Trouble, Trump or no Trump. While I think we will win the House back in '26, I don't see many victories after that. We need to go back to doing things that help EVERYONE, yes, even the white working class. Obama's ACA was huge, but that was 15 years ago and what have we done for anyone lately? Taking care of the unfortunates on the fringe of our society is good and noble, but the party's main thrust needs to be for policies that at least potentially help EVERYONE and we need to learn how to express those views in terms everyone can understand.

I don't get this. The Ds are the ones pushing financial policies that will help all, including the white working class. They're pushing for increased taxes on the wealthy and lower taxes on the middle class. They're pushing for pro-labor positions that would help blue collar workers in the middle class. They're pushing to keep (if not improve) the ACA so everyone can have (semi) affordable healthcare. The Rs are against all of that. Maybe this goes toward your point about expressing those views better, but their policies are simply better for the middle class than anything the Rs are putting out there for the economy.

And the Ds aren't out there leading with the types of policies you dismiss as SJW issues. Yes, they support them, but the ones who constantly raise the issues are the Rs because they see weakness there. They know the Ds aren't going to denounce LGBTQ+ rights (and they shouldn't). So they raise the issues, often mischaracterizing them, so that they can appeal to the bigotry of their base. There's not much the left can do there if they're not willing to abandon their base.

[hepcat]

...I'm not interested in slam pieces disguised as "valid criticism" nor am I interested in discussing anything from anyone who thinks the dems are too far left. The American political system is extreme right, far right, and vaguely centrist. There is no left in America. Let me rephrase. There is no left with any significant impact on American politics...

Exactly! This is a conservative country for better or worse, so we need to sell our ideology with that in mind.

If that sale includes embracing homophobia, racism and authoritarianism, then what's the point?

You complain that the left is being left, essentially. I find it confusing. It sounds like you want the left to just disband and turn themselves into the moderate voice of the right.

Do I believe that there is extremism on the left that needs to compromise with the moderate voices? Sure. But as we're seeing, the right is embracing EVERY aspect of right wing extremism. Isolationism, homophobia, etc.. The moderate voices are almost all being silenced.

As for OO R&P being an echo chamber after losing some conservative voices, those voices often delighted in trying to get a rise out of everyone. Very rarely did they attempt to start a good faith conversation, but rather as insults to anyone who didn't subscribe to their belief system. Go back and review them. I think time has dulled your memory of how those voices were raised.

[gbasden]

My position is that any attempts to "move" the dems to the right because they are too far "left" is simply right wing propaganda meant to weaken the opponents of the GOP right wing ideology. "don't fight us so hard, it will all be over soon if you just quiet down". The dems are in no way a left wing party, let alone extreme left wing.

That's what drives me absolutely nuts when I hear "the dems are the problem". The dems aren't burning your country to the ground. It's gaslighting of the worst kind.

I challenge anyone, right or left, to discuss their pet issues without using talking points or easy media-fed terms. Don't like DEI? What don't you like about it? Does it have any positives? What are they? Do the negatives outweigh the positives? How so? What is DEI anyway?

Etc.

I work for a company that strongly embraces DEI initiatives because in part it believes that you can't have a genuine meritocracy unless everyone can get to the table. The team I work with is very diverse, and that helps us given that our customers are also very diverse. Having many viewpoints at the table helps us come up with solutions to problems from different perspectives.

And I agree with the rest of your thoughts as well.

[stessier]

Exactly! This is a conservative country for better or worse, so we need to sell our ideology with that in mind. It doesn't mean we have to abandon every Left wing idea in the Democratic party but we need to either ditch or re-configure unpopular ideas (Like DEI or Foreign aid to nations that hate the US, or letting transgender girls play women's sports, just to name a few)

DEI - good for businesses, good for employee work satisfaction, morale, and productivity
Foreign aid to nations that hate the US - the things we support in those nations, like disease prevention, help keep us safe
Letting transgender people play sports - the NCAA president testified they were aware of 10 transgender athletes competing in 2024 - out of 500,000

None of these things should be apologized for.

[Blackhawk]

...I'm not interested in slam pieces disguised as "valid criticism" nor am I interested in discussing anything from anyone who thinks the dems are too far left. The American political system is extreme right, far right, and vaguely centrist. There is no left in America. Let me rephrase. There is no left with any significant impact on American politics...

Exactly! This is a conservative country for better or worse, so we need to sell our ideology with that in mind.

If that sale includes embracing homophobia, racism and authoritarianism, then what's the point?

You complain that the left is being left, essentially. I find it confusing. It sounds like you want the left to just disband and turn themselves into the moderate voice of the right.

While I don't agree with all of Apollo's nuances, that's not how I've read this aspect of the discussion. I read it as saying that if you want to create meaningful and lasting social change, you have to take the current culture into account. You build toward the end goal, and you keep building until you achieve it. If you jump straight to the end (make every social wish into a law), you're going to get blowback. No, bowing to that blowback isn't good or fair. But now we're seeing that just brushing past it is going to have consequences that are likely to end up with progress on the entire thing rolled back a half a century.

It's like with mental health - you tailor the treatment to where the patient is now and start laying the groundwork that you build on to reach the objective. You can't just bypass all of that and jump to where you want to be.

[GreenGoo]

While I don't agree with all of Apollo's nuances, that's not how I've read this aspect of the discussion. I read it as saying that if you want to create meaningful and lasting social change, you have to take the current culture into account.

This is in no way Apollo's stance, if previous comments from him are to be taken as a whole. I mean, I like your view, and it would be great if it were true, but it simply isn't.

[Blackhawk]

While I don't agree with all of Apollo's nuances, that's not how I've read this aspect of the discussion. I read it as saying that if you want to create meaningful and lasting social change, you have to take the current culture into account.

I like your view, and it would be great if it were true, but it simply isn't.

My view of his comment, or that position that I described in general?