Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:27 am**

This may be the dumbest collection of humans I've ever come across.

Jesus H. Christ

Does anyone understand the *absurdity* of Lindsey Graham looking like the reasonable man in the room?

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:34 am**

[paraphrasing the don]My muslim friends are so happy I brought this up (the idea of banning their travel).[/paraphrase]

*WHO SERIOUSLY BELIEVES THIS SHIT?*

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:37 am**

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:22 pm**

hepcat wrote:

Sadly, that actually took me a bit to see it. Then I laughed.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:41 pm**

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:48 pm**

Is Donald Trump a Democratic secret agent?

Republican leaders are currently thrashing about - holding secret meetings, issuing confidential memos and making public denunciations - as they approach a state of near panic over what Donald Trump is doing to their party. It's enough to make some believe that Mr Trump may not have the Republican establishment's best interests at heart. Could Donald Trump be a secret double-agent, sent by Democrats to destroy their party from within?

Former Florida governor Jeb Bush, who has borne the brunt of more than a few Trump barbs, seems to think there's a possibility. "Maybe Donald negotiated a deal with his buddy Hillary Clinton," Mr Bush tweeted this week, after Mr Trump cited a poll showing his supporters would stick with him if he left the Republican Party. "Continuing this path will put her in the White House."

The New York billionaire has a spotty political history, at best. He was a Republican, then he was a pro-choice Democrat, and now he's a fire-breathing, anti-immigration populist conservative. Could this latest iteration of Mr Trump's political brand be just a ruse, the elaborate cover for a liberal saboteur who has spent the past year setting explosives that threaten the unity of the party he pledged to support?

He's belittling his Republican colleagues. He's pulling the party to the nativist right in direct conflict with the goal set by strategists in 2013 to appeal to a more ethnically diverse nation. And he's generally sucking up all the political oxygen, making it harder for other candidates to get their message out. All in all, many experts say he's making it much more difficult for a Republican to win the general election next fall. Maybe he's doing it on purpose. It's a theory that has been bubbling long before Mr Bush's recent Twitter accusation. "If Donald Trump were a Democratic mole placed in the Republican Party to disrupt things, how would his behaviour be any different?" asked conservative political commentator George Will in July. "I don't think it would be."

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:51 pm**

He's not. It's just a GOP strategy to try to pull voters from him. "You're falling for the enemy's ruse!!!"

Of course I also wouldn't put it past Trump to say he was a secret Dem agent in 3 years when he wants to sell a book or launch another campaign.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:14 pm**

The entire thing is stupid. Trump gains nothing from throwing the election for the dems and he is losing a lot financially in the battle. He isn't that stupid.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:17 pm**

Becoming known by his first name outside the USA is worth more than you think.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:58 pm**

It would never work.

Plus it's insulting to think that conservative voters would fall for such a mix of xenophobia, racism, greed, and empty rhetoric just because the pretended candidate talks tough and lets them hate and makes them feel safe.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:18 pm**

Donald Trump is the apotheosis of the tea party movement. Fox News and talk radio prepared the way for him.

Plus, the Democrats just aren't that clever.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:41 pm**

If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:30 pm**

GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.

When that happens can we move in with you?

Posted: **Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:55 pm**

tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?

If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:48 am**

GreenGoo wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?
If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.

Well, then, can I have your stuff?

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:21 am**

tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?
If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.
Well, then, can I have your stuff?

I call his house!

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:04 am**

For the 1 or 2 among us still not taking Trump seriously:

6 scenarios that can lead to a Trump victory.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:46 am**

Archinerd wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?
If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.
Well, then, can I have your stuff?
I call his house!

from inside the house?

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:12 pm**

tgb wrote:For the 1 or 2 among us still not taking Trump seriously:

6 scenarios that can lead to a Trump victory.

I've gone from thinking he was a loudmouth to thinking he was a troll to thinking he was a vicious troll, but I still think it's fairly unlikely he'll even be in the general election.

(I also think the accusations of fascist are unfounded and the comparisons to Hitler absurd - there are dozens of other evil tin pot leaders that would make for a far more appropriate comparison.)

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:19 pm**

Unagi wrote:
Archinerd wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?
If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.
Well, then, can I have your stuff?
I call his house!
from inside the house?

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:26 pm**

Defiant wrote:
tgb wrote:For the 1 or 2 among us still not taking Trump seriously:

6 scenarios that can lead to a Trump victory.

I've gone from thinking he was a loudmouth to thinking he was a troll to thinking he was a vicious troll, but I still think it's fairly unlikely he'll even be in the general election.

(I also think the accusations of fascist are unfounded and the comparisons to Hitler absurd - there are dozens of other evil tin pot leaders that would make for a far more appropriate comparison.)

OK, I'll call you on it...name some.

The reason for the Hitler comparison is both rode FUD and xenophobia to high degrees of popularity; they got to where they did by finding what the most despicable people wanted then appealed to them.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:42 pm**

We can start with FDR's internment of Japanese Americans, and then follow that up with middle eastern countries where you will have great difficulty in getting a Visa if you are observably Jewish and which have had a history of persecution of Jews in those countries that even allowed Jews to worship or be citizens, and have widely used anti-semitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.

Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:04 pm**

Unagi wrote:
Archinerd wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:If Trump gets elected President of the US of A I think we'll have our answer then.
When that happens can we move in with you?
If that happens I'm moving off continent, I think I already said.
Well, then, can I have your stuff?
I call his house!
from inside the house?

I'm taking my stuff with me. Duh.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:13 pm**

Defiant wrote:We can start with FDR's internment of Japanese Americans

Did FDR campaign on that, whipping his supporters up into a frenzy by playing on their fear and hate?

And the comparison isn't to Hitler during his implementation days. And the comparison is being made because he's specifically endorsing things that Hitler did. Are there others that did shitty things that Trump also supports? Of course. But the Hitler comparisons aren't outlandish.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:44 pm**

Even pre-holocaust Hitler is such a limit case that it never does an argument any good: yes, he was democratically elected, but in a system so broken that rival candidates and their supporters were routinely beaten in the streets and political murder was routine. A Mussolini comparison doesn't work either, as it requires an army of violent supporters marching on the capital and demanding a change of government from the king.

The better comparison is George Wallace, who melded racism with resentment-based populism to ride dog-whistle politics all the way to the national stage. Wallace ran on an explicit defense of Jim Crow, and (whether or not he deserves the term "fascist") he exploited nativism, xenophobia, and hate into something peculiarly ugly and peculiarly American--all while promising alienated whites the chance to "Send Them a Message" and "Stand Up for America."

A Wallace presidency would have sunk our international prestige and crippled our civil and political culture for at least a generation. The difference between Wallace and Trump is that Wallace's appeal was largely regional, and he never had the kind of support or the media presence Trump is seeing now. He was mostly about keeping second-class citizens in their place, while Trump is riding the kind of fear and hate reserved for foreigners with minority religions. Trump is also a much better campaigner, and Wallace was apparently pretty entertaining and good for provocative soundbites.

With a Wallace comparison, we don't need to ask if it could really happen here. When you look at what Wallace was defending, you can see that it already has, and now Trump is trying to make it sound great again.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:30 pm**

Wallace is an apt comparison. The other big difference between the two campaigns is how media and communication have changed. If Al Gore had invented the Internet 20 years earlier, Wallace's campaign might have looked a lot different.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:25 pm**

Although to be fair, Donald Trump has invited the FDR comparison, as he thinks that it reflects well on him that he is advocating measures that were instituted by a President that many Democrats/liberals consider one of our greatest. He doesn't seem to get that they view FDR that way *despite* their revulsion for his actions towards Japanese Americans.

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm**

RunningMn9 wrote:Although to be fair, Donald Trump has invited the FDR comparison, as he thinks that it reflects well on him that he is advocating measures that were instituted by a President that many Democrats/liberals consider one of our greatest. He doesn't seem to get that they view FDR that way *despite* their revulsion for his actions towards Japanese Americans.

Plus, Trump is moving so fast that few have noticed how deftly he alienated Asian-Americans on top of Muslims, Latinos, and African-Americans.

Really, Donald, don't they at least deserve at least a brief denigration of their own?

Posted: **Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:39 pm**

Defiant wrote: Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.

What genocides did Hitler commit before he became the leader of the country? Compare apples to apples. Hitler's rise was based on the same sort of crap that Trump is coddling.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:18 am**

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:38 am**

The market place of ideas is starting to show some cracks around the edges, it seems to me.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:36 am**

I'm just really disappointed that after eight years of Obama, the best candidates the Republicans could put up was this bunch of buffoons. It just shows how off the rails the party has become, and this is a natural outcome of the self-implosion I've seen coming for a long time. We are in desperate need of a third party for people out there who have common sense and know the world isn't divided into two extremes.

I mean we're just a little less than a year out from the election and the American people have already lost. There's nobody up on either of those debate stages that should be President.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:39 am**

Jeff V wrote:
Defiant wrote: Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.
What genocides did Hitler commit before he became the leader of the country? Compare apples to apples. Hitler's rise was based on the same sort of crap that Trump is coddling.

Hitler's rise was based on gangs of thugs burning the houses and beating the skulls of his opponents before the elections ever occurred. The Nazis--not an army, just the toughs who fought in the streets for the party--already had barracks stocked with weapons in the early 1920's. Hitler attempted an actual violent coup in 1923, leading to his arrest and a treason trial. Things went on like this with Weimer politics becoming essentially lawless for another decade before Hitler took real power.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:48 am**

YK - I feel your pain. I don't think that all of the Republican candidates are blithering idiots, just the ones that the GOP primary voters seem to favor.

In other words, the problem isn't the candidates. The problem is the people choosing them.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:20 pm**

Holman wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Defiant wrote: Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.
What genocides did Hitler commit before he became the leader of the country? Compare apples to apples. Hitler's rise was based on the same sort of crap that Trump is coddling.
Hitler's rise was based on gangs of thugs burning the houses and beating the skulls of his opponents before the elections ever occurred. The Nazis--not an army, just the toughs who fought in the streets for the party--already had barracks stocked with weapons in the early 1920's. Hitler attempted an actual violent coup in 1923, leading to his arrest and a treason trial. Things went on like this with Weimer politics becoming essentially lawless for another decade before Hitler took real power.

Passionate’ Trump fans behind homeless man’s beating?

Are you suggesting that militia groups and white supremists that like what Trump is saying aren't already armed? Are you suggesting that Trump isn't tapping into hatred that already exists, for his own gains?

Let's be clear. Trump isn't Hitler incarnate and this isn't some weird parallel universe where every single step, political move and result is identical to Hitler's rise to power. Arguing that because Trump and Hitler are not identical comparisons are unreasonable is a straw man.

For me personally, I don't think Trump actually hates anyone, not in the way Hitler did anyway. That doesn't mean he isn't playing fire that is humanity's worst traits.

Can you imagine the absolute shit storm that would follow a Trump arrest? Being Martyr'd by the state would almost certainly result in Hitler-like popularity beyond what he is currently experiencing.

Criticizing Trump does not require invoking Hitler, but there are certainly aspects that seem similar. Unfortunately just the name Hitler makes everyone lose their shit, and that results in arguments about how Trump is or isn't exactly like Hitler, like this one. And that's a distraction and beside the point.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:36 pm**

RunningMn9 wrote:YK - I feel your pain. I don't think that all of the Republican candidates are blithering idiots, just the ones that the GOP primary voters seem to favor.

In other words, the problem isn't the candidates. The problem is the people choosing them.

I hate to say it (I really do), but I think this is the natural result of a party that campaigns on anti-intellectualism, educators as ivory tower residents out of touch with reality and that scientists and their science are what they are because they hate america.

This doesn't get talked about much (at least not where I see it) but it's an aspect of Conservatism (there's a touch of this in Canada too) that I despise, mainly because I value education and knowledge so much. I can't treat any group seriously that portrays education as a negative trait and something to be ridiculed. The drive for mankind to better itself has been almost universally through education and science. When I hear that being educated is a trait to be ashamed of, all I hear is people trying to keep Humanity down. And fuck those people. That they are pushing this for personal/political gain is that much worse. Double fuck those people.

And now we have Trump leading the polls followed closely by an overly religious (not extremist) person.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:54 pm**

GreenGoo wrote:
Holman wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Defiant wrote: Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.
What genocides did Hitler commit before he became the leader of the country? Compare apples to apples. Hitler's rise was based on the same sort of crap that Trump is coddling.
Hitler's rise was based on gangs of thugs burning the houses and beating the skulls of his opponents before the elections ever occurred. The Nazis--not an army, just the toughs who fought in the streets for the party--already had barracks stocked with weapons in the early 1920's. Hitler attempted an actual violent coup in 1923, leading to his arrest and a treason trial. Things went on like this with Weimer politics becoming essentially lawless for another decade before Hitler took real power.
Passionate’ Trump fans behind homeless man’s beating?

Are you suggesting that militia groups and white supremists that like what Trump is saying aren't already armed? Are you suggesting that Trump isn't tapping into hatred that already exists, for his own gains?

See Wallace comparison above.

Let's be clear. Trump isn't Hitler incarnate and this isn't some weird parallel universe where every single step, political move and result is identical to Hitler's rise to power. Arguing that because Trump and Hitler are not identical comparisons are unreasonable is a straw man.

It's not just that they're "not identical;" it's that they're an order of magnitude apart. You really can't read anything about Weimar Germany and not see that Hitler comparisons (even pre-war Hitler comparisons) are overblown.

For me personally, I don't think Trump actually hates anyone, not in the way Hitler did anyway.

"Not hating anyone" pretty much disqualifies you as Hitler, doesn't it?

That doesn't mean he isn't playing fire that is humanity's worst traits.

Humanity has lots of awful traits, but we can at least be grateful that racial eliminationism isn't in play this time around.

Can you imagine the absolute shit storm that would follow a Trump arrest? Being Martyr'd by the state would almost certainly result in Hitler-like popularity beyond what he is currently experiencing.

Arresting Trump would be pretty weird, but then again he hasn't tried a coup via assassinations and a private army.

Criticizing Trump does not require invoking Hitler, but there are certainly aspects that seem similar. Unfortunately just the name Hitler makes everyone lose their shit, and that results in arguments about how Trump is or isn't exactly like Hitler, like this one. And that's a distraction and beside the point.

The only way to compare Hitler and Trump as populist demagogues is in very specific, very particular ways, and there's not much of that going on.

Beyond this, all Hitler comparisons make Trump's critics look silly and hyperbolic--which only helps Trump. It turns the criticism into a cartoon. We can identify all the similarities we want (both stoked racism, both appealed to patriotism, both had peculiar hair), but there's no getting around the fact that all Hitler comparisons imply that the object represents the extreme limits of political evil imaginable in the modern world.

I think Trump is awful, probably the nastiest thing and the greatest risk we've seen in American politics since the rise of the modern Radical Right. I think pretty much everything he says is wrong and is calculated to play to Americans' fears and worst qualities. I do believe he is stoking racism and nativism to frightening effect, and I fear that it will only get worse. But criticize Trump as Trump. There's more than enough material there.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:05 pm**

GreenGoo, the thing that drove me out of the GOP is their anti-intellectualism and how it has impacted everything they do.

Posted: **Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:17 pm**

Holman wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Holman wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Defiant wrote: Lets leave the Hitler comparisons for those actually committing mass genocide.
What genocides did Hitler commit before he became the leader of the country? Compare apples to apples. Hitler's rise was based on the same sort of crap that Trump is coddling.
Hitler's rise was based on gangs of thugs burning the houses and beating the skulls of his opponents before the elections ever occurred. The Nazis--not an army, just the toughs who fought in the streets for the party--already had barracks stocked with weapons in the early 1920's. Hitler attempted an actual violent coup in 1923, leading to his arrest and a treason trial. Things went on like this with Weimer politics becoming essentially lawless for another decade before Hitler took real power.
Passionate’ Trump fans behind homeless man’s beating?

Are you suggesting that militia groups and white supremists that like what Trump is saying aren't already armed? Are you suggesting that Trump isn't tapping into hatred that already exists, for his own gains?
See Wallace comparison above.

Let's be clear. Trump isn't Hitler incarnate and this isn't some weird parallel universe where every single step, political move and result is identical to Hitler's rise to power. Arguing that because Trump and Hitler are not identical comparisons are unreasonable is a straw man.
It's not just that they're "not identical;" it's that they're a couple of orders of magnitude apart. You really can't read anything about Weimar Germany and not see that Hitler comparisons (even pre-war Hitler comparisons) are overblown.

For me personally, I don't think Trump actually hates anyone, not in the way Hitler did anyway.
"Not hating anyone" pretty much disqualifies you as Hitler, doesn't it?

That doesn't mean he isn't playing fire that is humanity's worst traits.
Humanity has lots of awful traits, but we can at least be grateful that racial eliminationism isn't in play this time around.

Can you imagine the absolute shit storm that would follow a Trump arrest? Being Martyr'd by the state would almost certainly result in Hitler-like popularity beyond what he is currently experiencing.
Arresting Trump would be pretty weird, but then again he hasn't tried a coup via assassinations and a private army.

Criticizing Trump does not require invoking Hitler, but there are certainly aspects that seem similar. Unfortunately just the name Hitler makes everyone lose their shit, and that results in arguments about how Trump is or isn't exactly like Hitler, like this one. And that's a distraction and beside the point.
The only way in might be possible to compare Hitler and Trump as populist demagogues is in very specific, very particular ways, and there's not much of that going on.

Beyond this, all Hitler comparisons make Trump's critics look silly and hyperbolic--which only helps Trump. It turns the criticism into a cartoon. We can identify all the similarities we want (both stoked racism, both appealed to patriotism, both had peculiar hair), but there's no getting around the fact that all Hitler comparisons imply that the object represents the extreme limits of political evil imaginable in the modern world.

I think Trump is awful, probably the nastiest thing and the greatest risk we've seen in American politics since the rise of the modern Radical Right. I think pretty much everything he says is wrong and is calculated to play to Americans' fears and worst qualities. I do believe he is stoking racism and nativism to frightening effect, and I fear that it will only get worse. But criticize Trump as Trump. There's more than enough material there.

Are you seriously going to go point for point with this? Geezus.

Trump is calling for the outlawing of all people of a specific religion but you think it's a worthwhile endeavour to clarify all the ways that Trump isn't like Hitler? Who gives a shit? It's 2015 and we have decades of recent examples of why this crap is awful and leads to awful things. When our PM was asked why it was important to have an equal gender government, he replied "because it's 2015". Listening to your politicians, its sounds an awful lot like the ramp up to WWII. And that's why Trump is being compared to Hitler. Not because he's Hitler, but because it's 2015 and the west should be long, long past this sort of nonsense. Order of magnitude is only important if he starts rounding up Muslims (which, if he had any government power whatsoever, he might actually try). The comparisons are not because X=Y. The comparisons are because X plus a little more hate mongering could = Y.

"Not hating anyone" pretty much disqualifies you as Hitler, doesn't it?

.

Yes, it does. But it doesn't disqualify comparisons to Hitler. Personal motivations for fascist positions are only useful on the psychiatrist's couch, not when discussing politics. I'm not sure you understand why comparison is a valuable tool. If things were identical then there would be no need for comparison. Unless you think people are suggesting that Trump is literally Hitler. Enjoy arguing that non-position.

While I've enjoyed your history lesson on why Trump is not Hitler, I'm actually not all that interested in a dead guy. My concern (and let's face it, the world as a whole) is that you might put this bozo in a position to actually implement some of the things he's saying. So instead of focusing on why Trump isn't Hitler, maybe spend some of that energy in the market place of ideas to get some of his supporters to realize what they are supporting.

Everyone understands he's not Hitler. I'm sorry if feel the comparison is not apt because Trump hasn't managed to do the things he says he wants to do, yet.

Octopus Overlords

The Art of the Donald Trumpocalypse

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