Enough wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:36 pm
Have to admit I am sort of happily shocked they would take action like that in GA. I wonder if he was just peacocking or was intending a mass shooting?
The problem is that a nonzero number of open-carriers "peacocking" are also the type who might go off if anyone reacts negatively to it.
I worry about anyone who gets their jollies by passively intimidating strangers in public.
+1
Absolutely agree!
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:02 pm
by Paingod
Zarathud wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pmA fat man can pull the trigger as easily as a thin one.
Technically incorrect. His finger pudge may make him more prone to accidentally discharging his firearm.
I'm simply saying that in the culture I was raised in, no one seems to be even remotely concerned about someone open carrying unless they're being weird about it. Open carrying in Maine in itself is not cause for alarm. Not up here, anyway. Tourists may be alarmed and back away, but locals don't even look twice. It seems like half the state are hunters and the other half still owns a firearm. The guys I've known who carried concealed all the time also took their training seriously and loved their firearms. They weren't crackpot kooks who did it for attention.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:15 pm
by Blackhawk
Zarathud wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pm
If you’re living for that remote possibility you have to use your gun, there’s something wrong.
If you're living for it, you're probably working to find an excuse.
It's the modern equivalent of a chip on their shoulder. It is someone looking for a fight.
Zarathud wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pmA fat man can pull the trigger as easily as a thin one.
Technically incorrect. His finger pudge may make him more prone to accidentally discharging his firearm.
I'm simply saying that in the culture I was raised in, no one seems to be even remotely concerned about someone open carrying unless they're being weird about it. Open carrying in Maine in itself is not cause for alarm. Not up here, anyway. Tourists may be alarmed and back away, but locals don't even look twice. It seems like half the state are hunters and the other half still owns a firearm. The guys I've known who carried concealed all the time also took their training seriously and loved their firearms. They weren't crackpot kooks who did it for attention.
You got me curious. Quick googling indicates Maine is around 19th in gun deaths (Wikipedia, but from 2013) and 22nd in gun ownership (RAND Corp study). With age-adjusted rates it looks to be a little more in the middle of the pack for gun deaths.
Zarathud wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pm
If you’re living for that remote possibility you have to use your gun, there’s something wrong.
If you're living for it, you're probably working to find an excuse.
It's the modern equivalent of a chip on their shoulder. It is someone looking for a fight.
Robert Conrad says hello.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:34 pm
by Paingod
Enough wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:23 pmWith age-adjusted rates it looks to be a little more in the middle of the pack for gun deaths.
They don't seem to be sensationalized, then.
By the CDC's site, Maine's gun death rate puts us at 33rd place in the nation. I'm not saying that's stellar. 50th at zero deaths would be stellar. Massachusetts has the best rate. I'd assume more road rage incidents given how they drive, but stopping in the road to attack another driver there will get you killed by someone speeding past.
Enough wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:23 pmWith age-adjusted rates it looks to be a little more in the middle of the pack for gun deaths.
They don't seem to be sensationalized, then.
By the CDC's site, Maine's gun death rate puts us at 33rd place in the nation. I'm not saying that's stellar. 50th at zero deaths would be stellar. Massachusetts has the best rate. I'd assume more road rage incidents given how they drive, but stopping in the road to attack another driver there will get you killed by someone speeding past.
It's hard to not notice how the data seems to hint that maybe gun ownership rates are more important for death rates than responsible gun culture found in states like Maine. You all track with right about where expected if it's a major factor.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:45 pm
by Holman
Something about open-carry just seems to raise the expectation (not just the possibility) of violence. People aren't smart about their emotions and sudden reactions. Throwing deadly weapons into the mix just seems like a bad idea.
An anecdote:
Once I went shooting with a friend down South. We took his guns and drove out to an informal automobile graveyard where people sometimes liked to shoot. I can attest that shooting abandoned cars is more fun than shooting beer cans or paper targets.
It was a good time. I didn't own any weapons, but I got to shoot my friend's AK-47, his AR-15, his M1 Garand, his Mauser, his M1911, etc. He's a lifelong hunter and a competitive shooter, and he was very careful and instructive in every way.
At first we were alone at the site. Later, though, a car came down the road towards us and I saw my friend tense up. "Keep your gun pointed down and don't make eye contact," he said. I realized that the presence of our weapons and (presumably, given the location) the strangers' weapons had made everything much more tense.
Later I asked my friend why he got worried at that point. He didn't claim that armed people are just necessarily more polite or anything like that. Instead he said "Guns attract assholes. Armed assholes are dangerous."
I think about this every time I see the gun-carry debate flare up.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:48 pm
by Pyperkub
I like that line from your friend.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:07 pm
by stimpy
Holman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:45 pm
"Guns attract assholes. Armed assholes are dangerous."
Pyperkub wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:48 pm
I like that line from your friend.
You mean his armed asshole friend.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:39 pm
by Blackhawk
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:15 pm
It is someone looking for a fight.
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:15 pm
It is someone looking for a fight.
His friend or the mysterious, possibly armed asshole stranger in a car?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:55 pm
by Blackhawk
None of the above.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:09 pm
by stimpy
I dont get it. I mean....I get it. You're referring to me but I dont see why.
An assumption was made about a total stranger just driving in a car near where he and his friend are shooting guns.
Maybe the guy was lost. Maybe he was scared.
Maybe the only people there that were attracted to guns were those 2.
His friend obviously likes guns. His friends theory is "Guns attract assholes. Armed assholes are dangerous.".
Maybe to that person passing by they were the armed assholes.
Ergo......
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:50 pm
by Jaymann
If the holster fits.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:47 am
by Paingod
stimpy wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:09 pmI dont get it. I mean....I get it.
Translation: I just need to argue about something, anything.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:43 am
by Unagi
stimpy wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:09 pm
Maybe to that person passing by they were the armed assholes.
I'm sure we would all agree to this point of perspective, but the rest of what you say is meaningless here and only makes you sound like a person that just needs to be a dick.
just FYI.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:02 am
by stimpy
Let's say I have a theory that meat eaters are jagoffs.
I'm sitting at a restaurant eating a nice juicy steak.
I look at the guy that just sat down by me and say to to my companion, keep your steak knife down, that guy might be a meat eater because he is at this restaurant. Meat attracts eaters. Meat eaters are jagoffs.
Does that not make me a meat eating jagoff?
My point is, making such a wide reaching comment as "guns attract assholes" is beyond ridiculous.
How these conversations always turn to be about me is mind boggling. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of a gun lover thinking that guns attract assholes.
Am I really that important to you all?
Then ya'll need a new hobby.......
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:25 am
by Holman
Nice try, but fail.
A competent reader would understand that a "lifelong hunter and competitive shooter" wouldn't believe that everyone who uses guns is an asshole.
"Guns attract assholes" means what it says, not "all gun-users are assholes."
Try to keep up.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:50 am
by stimpy
Holman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:25 am
Nice try, but fail.
A competent reader would understand that a "lifelong hunter and competitive shooter" wouldn't believe that everyone who uses guns is an asshole.
"Guns attract assholes" means what it says, not "all gun-users are assholes."
Try to keep up.
I'll try.
Please clarify what "guns attract assholes" means exactly? And how that isnt a sweeping statement about guns and gun owners?
I'm an asshole and I have no interest in guns other than to protect my home and family.
Sitting in a tree for hours waiting for a deer to wander into my line of sight and then calling myself a hunter doesnt impress me at all.
Get out of the tree and wrestle it to death. Then I'll be impressed.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:25 am
by Zarathud
stimpy wrote:I'm an asshole and I have no interest in guns other than to protect my home and family.
Guns attract assholes. QED
You don’t need a gun to protect your family. We live in a civilized nation and your fantasy of being the “good guy with a gun” is bullshit.
stimpy wrote:I'm an asshole and I have no interest in guns other than to protect my home and family.
Guns attract assholes. QED
You don’t need a gun to protect your family. We live in a civilized nation and your fantasy of being the “good guy with a gun” is bullshit.
Hahahahaha.......what a joke. Civilized society.....
Tell that to all of the innocent victims of mass shootings and gun violence. I'm sure they'll agree with you.
Are guns needed to hunt? Why? Go to Jewel and buy what you need. Are deer pelts making a comeback?
What will you do when someone breaks down your door, ask them nicely to leave? Remind them we are a civilized nation?
You're a victim waiting to happen.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:40 am
by Skinypupy
stimpy wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:32 am
You're a victim waiting to happen.
Which would all be fixed if he were packing heat because reasons.
stimpy wrote:I'm an asshole and I have no interest in guns other than to protect my home and family.
Guns attract assholes. QED
You don’t need a gun to protect your family. We live in a civilized nation and your fantasy of being the “good guy with a gun” is bullshit.
I think the fact that we have this topic kind of refutes the notion that we are a civilized nation. We have the most guns per capita in the world with one of the most militarized police forces and the world's largest military, by sheer power. We have an untouchable ruling class structure and a stark wealth divide.
Sweden is a civilized nation. The US is, at best, not completely savage.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:42 am
by Paingod
Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:25 amYou don’t need a gun to protect your family. We live in a civilized nation and your fantasy of being the “good guy with a gun” is bullshit.
The fantasy that police can be everywhere is a fantasy. Not every situation is the same. I don't begrudge anyone the means to protect themselves or others. It's not the first time this argument has come up on the forum and there's a lot that can go back and forth. If you live in a place where you feel absolutely safe and like nothing could ever invade your home, that's awesome. Not everyone has that.
It makes my wife feel better knowing she has a way to defend the kids if she's home with them when someone tries to break in, so that makes me feel better. We live in the deep woods and help could be like 10+ minutes away, even if she hid in a closet with her cell phone and the kids at her side. It's in that closet that we keep the home defense gun and the hobbyist guns.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:46 am
by Daehawk
Better to own a gun and never use it than need a gun and not have it.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:47 am
by Zarathud
No. My wife worked at the Indiana state prison. Her cat burglar porter showed her how to buy a home that is least likely to be robbed on the block. We know how to handle ourselves in bad areas without a gun — awareness, not a security blanket gun, is your best protection. We are not victims in waiting.
Your example is more fantasy bullshit. The persons most likely to break down your door are the police. You lose that gunfight. Plus if someone breaks down your door, they’re on top of you and it’s too late for your gun in close quarters. Use a bat.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am
by Paingod
Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:46 amBetter to own a gun and never use it than need a gun and not have it.
I was coming back to edit my post with this exact comment.
If we never fire that home defense gun outside the range, that's awesome. If we ever find ourselves thankful we had it, that's terrible but not as terrible as it could have been.
Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:47 amYour example is more fantasy bullshit. The persons most likely to break down your door are the police. You lose that gunfight. Plus if someone breaks down your door, they’re on top of you and it’s too late for your gun in close quarters. Use a bat.
I invite you to do whatever you want to keep yourself safe, and we'll do the same. I don't expect my wife to chase out a home invader with a baseball bat. I'm not sure how you got to "We want a gun fight with the cops" out of my saying she'd basically hide in the closet with our kids and use the gun as a last resort if someone gets to the closet.
Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:46 amBetter to own a gun and never use it than need a gun and not have it.
I was coming back to edit my post with this exact comment.
If we never fire that home defense gun outside the range, that's awesome. If we ever find ourselves thankful we had it, that's terrible but not as terrible as it could have been.
The prevalence of accidental and family-related shootings suggest that this blanket statement might not be 100% accurate.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:57 am
by Unagi
Paingod wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:42 am
It makes my wife feel better knowing she has a way to defend the kids if she's home with them when someone tries to break in, so that makes me feel better. We live in the deep woods and help could be like 10+ minutes away, even if she hid in a closet with her cell phone and the kids at her side. It's in that closet that we keep the home defense gun and the hobbyist guns.
Sadly, while it may make you feel better, the hard truth is that it's more likely to be used in a desperate moment of depression or simply normal childhood curiosity - and end in tragedy.
I'm seriously worried (I wouldn't call it 'begrudging them') for houses with guns and kids in them. Serious concern there.
Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:00 pm
by Zarathud
There are shootings 3-4 blocks away from my house, and I feel safer than you do in your rural community. That’s paranoia talk.
As noted above, the gun is a bigger danger than the boogie man.
Holman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:25 am
Nice try, but fail.
A competent reader would understand that a "lifelong hunter and competitive shooter" wouldn't believe that everyone who uses guns is an asshole.
"Guns attract assholes" means what it says, not "all gun-users are assholes."
Try to keep up.
I'll try.
Please clarify what "guns attract assholes" means exactly? And how that isnt a sweeping statement about guns and gun owners?
I'm an asshole and I have no interest in guns other than to protect my home and family.
Sitting in a tree for hours waiting for a deer to wander into my line of sight and then calling myself a hunter doesnt impress me at all.
Get out of the tree and wrestle it to death. Then I'll be impressed.
Guns attract assholes because (a certain kind of) asshole loves the fantasy of power and macho toughness that attends them.
It doesn't mean that every hunter or every shooter is an asshole, so it's not a sweeping statement about gun owners.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:06 pm
by Paingod
Unagi wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:57 amI'm seriously worried (I wouldn't call it 'begrudging them') for houses with guns and kids in them. Serious concern there.
Like sex and drugs, communication with kids is essential. Our kids know what guns are, know how to leave them alone, and know what to do if any of their friends ever brandish them. They absolutely understand that a firearm is first and foremost a lethal tool and not a toy. Remove the mystery, provide education, and a lot of problems are minimized or removed.
Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:00 pmThat’s paranoia talking to you.
I'm gonna get all stimpy and just now while you persist in telling me how to live my life.
We don't feel unsafe in our home. We feel safer knowing we have an emergency plan.
One of the great problems in all of these debates is the absolute lack of clear statistics. There are a lot of studies that lean this way or that way, but because the US government seems to do everything in its power to not accumulate data on this subject, people on both sides never really know.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:17 pm
by Daehawk
Had a bb gun at 5. At 10 or 12 I had a .22 and a 410 shotgun. I was taught about guns from a young age. Ive never fired a gun in anger, shot someone, or shot myself. Id never even pick one up as a child without my dad approving and with me...except my bb gun. I got to take that out alone.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:22 pm
by Blackhawk
I have had a lot of training with firearms, especially with handguns, and it's not just range training. I've carried them in multiple jobs. I've pointed them at fellow humans, and I've been shot at. I'd be confident I could use one safely in the event of a break-in. But unless I knew they were coming in advance, I'd reach for a knife, the handaxe I keep near the door, or just use my bare hands. Firearms suck for quick, close quarters response. If someone is five feet away from me with a gun, my hands would be a better response than a gun. I'd be more likely to survive unless I had time to prepare and position in advance. Not only that, but if the invader isn't armed, I've added a gun to the situation. Now if something goes wrong, I could very well simply end up arming the attacker.
And if I did know someone was coming in advance, I'd actually A) knock the fridge over in front of the door, B) get the kids into the bathtub, and C) call the police. Only then would I start to worry about weapons.
Guns are great defenses, but they're incredibly situational. If you aren't warned, it's unlikely you'll have immediate access to it when you need it unless you have it sitting ready and in the open. And even if you have it in hand, it takes a great deal of training to know when your shot is going to be clean, and when it is going to go through your target, through the wall, and into the neighbor's house. Or off of the ground and into traffic. For instance, how many people who have guns for self defense keep it ready with frangible ammunition? How many have taken the time to walk their property considering sight lines and backdrop to plan in advance where it will be safe to shoot? Have taken the time to know which of their walls will stop a bullet and which will not?
And these concerns are all doubled if people who aren't me would be the one to use the gun (say, if I weren't home and Michelle were the one defending the house.)
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:28 pm
by Z-Corn
I like guns because I enjoy the challenge of using one to hit a target.
I grew up in a hunting family. Started shooting while hunting with my Dad and Grandpa in third grade. Got my own .22 rifle at about 10 years old and my first shotgun for my 11th birthday. Shot lots of rabbits and grouse and squirrels.
The first year I was able to carry a shotgun for deer season was when I turned 14. I made my Dad and my Grandpa proud by shooting a 6-point buck on opening day. Picked him out of a group of three does around him. That was the last animal I ever killed. It really freaked me out to shoot something that big and beautiful.
Now I like guns because I enjoy the challenge of using one to hit a target.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:34 pm
by Alefroth
Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:46 am
Better to own a gun and never use it than need a gun and not have it.
True if not for the fact that guns kill more family members than they do intruders.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:34 pm
by LawBeefaroni
Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:47 am
No. My wife worked at the Indiana state prison. Her cat burglar porter showed her how to buy a home that is least likely to be robbed on the block. We know how to handle ourselves in bad areas without a gun — awareness, not a security blanket gun, is your best protection. We are not victims in waiting.
This may come as a surprise but all competent defensive firearm training emphasizes situational awareness and teaches that escape is the best, most desirable option in any confrontation.
Shooting someone is the second to last thing any responsible gun owner should want to do. Unfortunately far from all gun owners are responsible or properly trained.
Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:47 amYour example is more fantasy bullshit. The persons most likely to break down your door are the police. You lose that gunfight. Plus if someone breaks down your door, they’re on top of you and it’s too late for your gun in close quarters. Use a bat.
Using a bat is just as fantastical. The only difference is that a firearm isn't as dependent on size or physical fighting skills. Not everyone is The Rock. A handgun can index shoot, a bat can't.
I get both sides of these arguments. I've made both earnestly, probably even in my posts here. I've learned that it's far more nuanced than "Guns = Charles Bronson fantasy, no-guns = sheep-like victim."
The main thing to remember is that what is right for you (general you) isn't necessarily right for the other guy. The main problem is that guns too often shoot the other guy. It's not like being fitness nut or collecting Hungarian vodkas.
now while you persist in telling me how to live my life.