Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Zaxxon]

But unfortunately they're also much smaller, yielding additional cargo room.

[Default]

Yesterday's xkcd comic...

An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that's the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill

Fun fact: in all the older movies, the car engine sound effects are recordings of MoPar big blocks, 440 cid engines. So, play an mp3 on the sound system at full volume, and install a smoke screen dispenser at the back bumper, and you will be accepted at a maga rally.

[The Meal]

I tell gear head passengers they have to make their own vroom vroom noises.

[GreenGoo]

Opinions of the Nissan Ariya?

Priced out similar Mach-Es and EV6's. Basically identical for both 2023 and 2024s with similar features. Within $1k or so, which surprised me.

Getting real close now. Most of this is me procrastinating because holy fuck these are expensive and I feel naked without money. Mach-E charger is nearly 3x as expensive for some reason, and proprietary (I think).

[Zaxxon]

You don't need a specific charger for any of these. You can pick whatever you like, and all of these cars will take a J1772 plug.

As for the Ariya, I have no direct experience with it but am seeing more of them around here over the past couple of months. So they're doing something right.

[Pyperkub]

Fisker died this week...

Fisker filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection late on Monday, ending months of speculation over the future of the company. Now the EV maker is looking to sell its assets and restructure its debt after pausing production of its sole car model back in March.

To anyone familiar with the Ocean all-electric SUV, news of Fisker's bankruptcy may have been predictable. WIRED tested the Fisker Ocean in July 2023 but, due to the obviously unfinished nature of the test car, was left in the unprecedented position of being unable to score or rate the EV. Our test Ocean was plagued with squeaky pedals, an inoperative California mode (where the EV drops all its windows save the windscreen) that forced a switch in car mid-test, and poor handling.

I seem to recall another EV manufacturer declaring bankruptcy recently, but didn't see it.

[Isgrimnur]

Goodbye Lordstown Motors, hello Nu Ride - March 15th

A March 14 filing by the United States Securities and Exchange Commission shows that the former EV builder is back in business and being traded in the OTC Pink Market under the ticker symbol 'NRDE.'

The filing shows the new business is located in New York City, and according to their website, Nu Ride has approximately $78 million in cash along with "$1 billion of net operating loss carry forwards and various causes of action."

[Carpet_pissr]

Welp, I'm out of the market for now - Hyundai corporate stepped in and the local dealer fixed my car, so they won't be buying it back from me.

Guess I will wait another year to replace our Odyssey and wait on the second model year of the EV9, which should be better for a number of reasons anyway. Every year that passes I assume also means the charging network is growing. Hope so, at least.

[Kurth]

After a lot of back-and-forth, we decided to go with a long range, AWD Model Y. I hate to support Elon, but his software is so far ahead of what I was seeing in other EVs, I bit the bullet. All the reviews of the Rivian said the Gen2s have tons of potential and are great cars, but Rivian has a lot of work to do to catch up to where Tesla is on the software side of things. My wife also really liked the Model Y . . .

Interestingly, we decided to lease. First time we've done that. I didn't want to buy outright due to the crazy price fluctuations (especially at Tesla) and the continual improvements which lead me to believe that in three years, we won't necessarily want to be in the EV we would buy today (let's go, Rivian!!!). When I ran the numbers, this is what I got, taking into account a conservative 5% rate of return if we squirrel away the money we would be deploying on purchasing a vehicle:

Buy New: $50,630
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $7,981
Estimated Residual Value: $32,995 (assuming depreciation comparable to 2021 car)
Total cost over 36 months: $25,616

Lease: $5,466 due at signing; $504/month for 36 months
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $3,722
Total cost over 36 months: $23,610
Estimated Residual Value: $0
Total cost over 36 months: $27,332

Buy Used: $32,995 (2021 w 27K miles; local via AutoTrader)
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $5,201
Total cost over 36 months: $32,995
Estimated Residual Value: $16,498 (assuming 50% depreciation)
Total cost over 36 months: $21,698

Clearly, leasing was our most expensive option, but it also maintains the most flexibility going forward. It's also pretty hassle free. I still think the used option might have been best (especially if my 50% depreciation guess is off), but buying used cars is also a pain in the ass.

[Zaxxon]

Sweet. I've never leased, but I'm considering that path on our next car (which may be a Rivian R1S or new X in 2025), in part to maintain the tax credit eligibility.

When do/did you get the car? What are your plans for home charging setup?

[Pyperkub]

After a lot of back-and-forth, we decided to go with a long range, AWD Model Y. I hate to support Elon, but his software is so far ahead of what I was seeing in other EVs, I bit the bullet. All the reviews of the Rivian said the Gen2s have tons of potential and are great cars, but Rivian has a lot of work to do to catch up to where Tesla is on the software side of things. My wife also really liked the Model Y . . .

Interestingly, we decided to lease. First time we've done that. I didn't want to buy outright due to the crazy price fluctuations (especially at Tesla) and the continual improvements which lead me to believe that in three years, we won't necessarily want to be in the EV we would buy today (let's go, Rivian!!!). When I ran the numbers, this is what I got, taking into account a conservative 5% rate of return if we squirrel away the money we would be deploying on purchasing a vehicle:

Buy New: $50,630
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $7,981
Estimated Residual Value: $32,995 (assuming depreciation comparable to 2021 car)
Total cost over 36 months: $25,616

Lease: $5,466 due at signing; $504/month for 36 months
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $3,722
Total cost over 36 months: $23,610
Estimated Residual Value: $0
Total cost over 36 months: $27,332

Buy Used: $32,995 (2021 w 27K miles; local via AutoTrader)
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $5,201
Total cost over 36 months: $32,995
Estimated Residual Value: $16,498 (assuming 50% depreciation)
Total cost over 36 months: $21,698

Clearly, leasing was our most expensive option, but it also maintains the most flexibility going forward. It's also pretty hassle free. I still think the used option might have been best (especially if my 50% depreciation guess is off), but buying used cars is also a pain in the ass.

I thought the EV's/Tesla depreciation wasn't as high - where'd that 50% depreciation come from? It seems like the huge off-the-lot depreciation has already happened (for the used model).

Edit - also, are you factoring in ongoing tesla subscriptions to your total costs/payments?

[Kurth]

After a lot of back-and-forth, we decided to go with a long range, AWD Model Y. I hate to support Elon, but his software is so far ahead of what I was seeing in other EVs, I bit the bullet. All the reviews of the Rivian said the Gen2s have tons of potential and are great cars, but Rivian has a lot of work to do to catch up to where Tesla is on the software side of things. My wife also really liked the Model Y . . .

Interestingly, we decided to lease. First time we've done that. I didn't want to buy outright due to the crazy price fluctuations (especially at Tesla) and the continual improvements which lead me to believe that in three years, we won't necessarily want to be in the EV we would buy today (let's go, Rivian!!!). When I ran the numbers, this is what I got, taking into account a conservative 5% rate of return if we squirrel away the money we would be deploying on purchasing a vehicle:

Buy New: $50,630
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $7,981
Estimated Residual Value: $32,995 (assuming depreciation comparable to 2021 car)
Total cost over 36 months: $25,616

Lease: $5,466 due at signing; $504/month for 36 months
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $3,722
Total cost over 36 months: $23,610
Estimated Residual Value: $0
Total cost over 36 months: $27,332

Buy Used: $32,995 (2021 w 27K miles; local via AutoTrader)
AWD Long Range/White Exterior/Black Interior
Investment Potential Loss: $5,201
Total cost over 36 months: $32,995
Estimated Residual Value: $16,498 (assuming 50% depreciation)
Total cost over 36 months: $21,698

Clearly, leasing was our most expensive option, but it also maintains the most flexibility going forward. It's also pretty hassle free. I still think the used option might have been best (especially if my 50% depreciation guess is off), but buying used cars is also a pain in the ass.

I thought the EV's/Tesla depreciation wasn't as high - where'd that 50% depreciation come from? It seems like the huge off-the-lot depreciation has already happened (for the used model).

Edit - also, are you factoring in ongoing tesla subscriptions to your total costs/payments?

Good questions: The depreciation from the new Tesla to the used Tesla is just based on an equivalent used car I saw being sold locally that seemed to be valued reasonably (per KBB at least). I had no idea how to approximate the depreciation on the used Tesla, because they haven't been making the Model Y long enough to find an equivalent used car being sold today. I do think the 50% depreciation is probably too high, but I don't know what a 2018 Model Y would go for since they don't exist.

What are the ongoing Tesla subscriptions? There's a connectivity plan, right? I did see that one, but that's a rounding error, I think. Couple hundred dollars or so. Am I missing something else?

[Zaxxon]

What are the ongoing Tesla subscriptions? There's a connectivity plan, right? I did see that one, but that's a rounding error, I think. Couple hundred dollars or so. Am I missing something else?

You'll probably want the premium connectivity, which is $99/year. I'd mostly skip FSD, but you can get that for $99/mo when you may want to play with it for a road trip rather than planning to subscribe all the time.

[Kurth]

Sweet. I've never leased, but I'm considering that path on our next car (which may be a Rivian R1S or new X in 2025), in part to maintain the tax credit eligibility.

When do/did you get the car? What are your plans for home charging setup?

Tesla says delivery in June, but I'm not sure I believe that.

For the charging set up, I contacted PGE (our electric company), and they have me set up with an installer who is supposed to be getting me a quote. I have a somewhat funky electrical set up (2 main disconnects in the garage feeding 2 breaker panels, one downstairs and one upstairs). PGE is offering me a rebate of $350 off the charger and $1000 off electrical work. The only catch is, you can't use a Tesla charger. Instead, they're going to install a Charge Point Home Flex Level 2 Charger, which seems to get solid reviews.

We also bought the Tesla home charger, too, so we can get buy with the trickle charge until we get the Level 2 charger installed. That's all my daughter has been using for her Hyundai Kona, and she seems to have gotten by alright.

[Kurth]

What are the ongoing Tesla subscriptions? There's a connectivity plan, right? I did see that one, but that's a rounding error, I think. Couple hundred dollars or so. Am I missing something else?

You'll probably want the premium connectivity, which is $99/year. I'd mostly skip FSD, but you can get that for $99/mo when you may want to play with it for a road trip rather than planning to subscribe all the time.

Yeah, no way I'm paying $8K for FSD. Seems like in its current state, it's a neat trick, but not something worth that amount of money. I also understand that an FSD purchase is tied to the car, not to the owner, so I'm not sure how that would even work with a lease.

[Zaxxon]

Our utility has a very similar deal for the Chargepoint, and in fact we took them up on it for a rental. That unit has been solid for us. The only downside is you'll need to use the J1772 adapter unless you have Chargepoint swap out the cable and connector for a NACS connector. Not a big deal, but it does add a step when plugging/unplugging.

[Zaxxon]

What are the ongoing Tesla subscriptions? There's a connectivity plan, right? I did see that one, but that's a rounding error, I think. Couple hundred dollars or so. Am I missing something else?

You'll probably want the premium connectivity, which is $99/year. I'd mostly skip FSD, but you can get that for $99/mo when you may want to play with it for a road trip rather than planning to subscribe all the time.

Yeah, no way I'm paying $8K for FSD. Seems like in its current state, it's a neat trick, but not something worth that amount of money. I also understand that an FSD purchase is tied to the car, not to the owner, so I'm not sure how that would even work with a lease.

I wouldn't touch the FSD purchase on a lease (and probably not even on a purchase I intend to keep for a very long time, unless it drops back to $5k or lower). I do like the ability to add it for a month at a time at $99/mo. Even if I subscribed for every road trip I take, that'd be like $300-$400/year, or far less than $8k over the life of the car even without taking into account the time value of money saved upfront.

(Of course it may not be $99 forever, but I'll take my chances for now.)

[Kurth]

What are the ongoing Tesla subscriptions? There's a connectivity plan, right? I did see that one, but that's a rounding error, I think. Couple hundred dollars or so. Am I missing something else?

You'll probably want the premium connectivity, which is $99/year. I'd mostly skip FSD, but you can get that for $99/mo when you may want to play with it for a road trip rather than planning to subscribe all the time.

Yeah, no way I'm paying $8K for FSD. Seems like in its current state, it's a neat trick, but not something worth that amount of money. I also understand that an FSD purchase is tied to the car, not to the owner, so I'm not sure how that would even work with a lease.

I wouldn't touch the FSD purchase on a lease (and probably not even on a purchase I intend to keep for a very long time, unless it drops back to $5k or lower). I do like the ability to add it for a month at a time at $99/mo. Even if I subscribed for every road trip I take, that'd be like $300-$400/year, or far less than $8k over the life of the car even without taking into account the time value of money saved upfront.

(Of course it may not be $99 forever, but I'll take my chances for now.)

My engineer son (and Tesla fanboy) is very excited to make use of the 30 day FSD trial! I’m interested to see what it can do, too.

[Zaxxon]

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s super-cool. Just not $8k cool.

[Zaxxon]

We’re on our summer road trip through WY, UT, ID, and back through CO. Today marked the first time I’ve used the CCS adapter in a mission-critical way (as opposed to a ‘I just paid to have this capability retrofit, so let’s try EA rather than Superchargers today’ way).

We were heading west on I-80 through western Wyoming, heading to Fossil Butte National Monument and on toward Pocatello, ID. You know, the boonies. The Tesla route would have kept us on 80 to Evanston, WY, which would have worked fine but added dozens of miles to the route.

Instead, we left the interstate after Rock Springs, went to the Monument, then hit a ChargePoint CCS station in Garden City, UT. Was only 75 kW but it worked well for us, adding 50 kWh while we checked out the Bear Lake beach and got some burgers and shakes. And the town covered the cost of the juice!

Definitely recommend this stop if you’re in the area.

[GreenGoo]

Electrician (who I may hire to upgrade the panel and power with Hydro's help to the house) has asked me if I want enerlink also. I didn't know what this was, but it looks to be an interface so you can power your house more easily via gas generator or EV battery. So a tool to help use the car when the power is out. I hadn't considered that.

Looks like it probably requires V2L, which I hadn't anticipated including in my car purchase. I know you can buy an adapter after the fact, but I am now wondering if buying it at purchase time means it's integrated, or are we still talking about an adapter?

Things are already getting insanely expensive just to put the infrastructure in, although admittedly I'm upgrading things that aren't necessarily needed, at least not upfront. Still...if I'm going to upgrade the power I might as well upgrade the rest of it too.

We do get the infrequent power outage, and some have been fairly severe, although at an absolute maximum, we might average once a year for less than a day. "Once in a lifetime" storms not included, although I expect those to start getting more frequent.

Thoughts?

[stessier]

Sorry, but what is a V2L?

[Isgrimnur]

vehicle-to-load

With an electric SUV fitted with V2L technology, for example, it would be theoretically possible to drive off-road to a remote camping location, and then draw power from the car’s battery to use everyday appliances such as a coffee machine, microwave, or an electric pump for inflating an air mattress.

V2L functionality can also have benefits in more serious situations, including rescue and relief efforts during natural disasters or other crises.

Mitsubishi, for example, says it used V2L technology in suitably equipped i-MiEV vehicles as a backup power source in the aftermath of the 2011 Fukushima earthquake and tsunami, and more recently to power mobile refrigeration appliances to deliver COVID-19 vaccines in remote areas of Indonesia.
...
Even if a household battery was not being used, a connected EV could potentially mitigate any power loss in the event of a blackout by acting as a temporary power supply for several hours.

[Zaxxon]

I think that’s probably a lot of money to protect against a very infrequent event for you.

[GreenGoo]

I think that’s probably a lot of money to protect against a very infrequent event for you.

Looks like the V2L is included in the trim I'll likely be buying from Kia already. Not sure about the Ford. Will look. Waiting to hear how much the "enerlink" is going to be.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, I mean the home interface part.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, I mean the home interface part.

Yeah, too much, plus electrician is trying to get me to buy a gas generator from costco (handles natural gas too, apparently). Things are starting to spiral out of control, costwise. Can't help but feel like I'm being upsold repeatedly on this. I need to get another quote from a different electrician.

So I'm passing on the generlink product.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, seriously I’d just get a 240V charger, whatever amperage you can cost-effectively go with. That’s all you really need. If I were looking for backup power, I sure wouldn’t be going gas in 2024. Solar + battery or bust.

[Hrdina]

My friend bought a Ford F-150 Lightning when the first became available.

He updated his house with solar panels, and with the ability to power the house from the truck whenever the power goes out.

He sometimes seems disappointed when there's a big storm and he doesn't get the opportunity to test out this capability.

[Zaxxon]

Back from our road trip (AAR to come). Had to hop in and mention that if any of you are looking for a Kia EV6, you may want to strike. Here in CO, lease deals are being had for $1500 down incl taxes, and < $200/mo for the long-range AWD Wind trim. Absurd deal.

[Jeff V]

Yesterday I saw a Toyota Crown. I didn't even know Toyota made an EV, I'm pretty sure they aren't being sold here, this car had Nevada plates.

[Zaxxon]

Road trip AAR: NW CO, Wyoming, Southern Idaho, Salt Lake/Park City, UT.

Miles: 2285
kWh used: 891.9 (26.5 gal gasoline equiv)
MPGe: 86.2

496 kWh from Superchargers, 333 from CCS and L2 charging. (The remainder came from filling back up at home after the trip.)

This is the first real road-trip where I used non-Tesla DCFC for a significant portion of our charging. As a result, the car got nervous a few times as we left the Tesla guardrails behind:


It's nice to see other providers' charging sites becoming more useful. And they all worked out for me, with a couple niggles. We used on Electrify America station. The unit # was only labeled on the back, while the connector # (which is irrelevant when starting charging) was on the front. So I struggled with that for a min before finally just paying with tap-to-pay with my credit card. So I charged fine, but the session wasn't tied to my EA app. Right after I started charging I figured out my issue and 1) felt dumb, and 2) wondered why EA made it this complicated.

Had better experiences with Chargepoint. I used one 60 kW unit at Bear Lake, UT with no issues (and great location--0 min 'cost' as it was right by some good lunch/dessert options), another in Arco, ID (near a cool WW2 museum), a third in Dinosaur, CO, and a 4th at a Kia dealership 0.5 mi from one of our Airbnbs. These all worked great other than having crappy speeds--one was 60 kW, another 40 kW, and the Kia dealer 22 (!) kW), stretching the definition of 'fast-charging.' They all worked well for our needs on this trip, though.

One interesting observation was our Supercharging stop in Edwards, CO. This site has 8 v3 Supercharging stalls immediately adjacent to 4 EA stalls. The 8 Tesla stalls were all cycling through users, with a car exiting/entering the station every ~2 min. The EA station saw 0 total vehicles during our ~15 min stop. This along I-70 on a busy Sunday. I was surprised to see the EA station that empty.

We also had one unscheduled excursion after a tire had a RUD exiting a construction zone:


Thankfully this happened < 2 miles from Twin Falls, ID. We were towed, 2 tires replaced, and on our way again in ~90 min.

Great trip.

[GreenGoo]

If there was a lineup for the Tesla charger, but no lineup for the other chargers, how big a difference in price/charge time are we talking here? What would be the motivation to wait in line?

[Zaxxon]

If there was a lineup for the Tesla charger, but no lineup for the other chargers, how big a difference in price/charge time are we talking here? What would be the motivation to wait in line?

There wasn't a line; someone left right when we got there and from there it was 6-7 full at any given time. But in general for a Tesla owner the EA stations would be ~$0.10-$0.20/kWh more, assuming they don't pay for the EA membership. I'm still burning through some referral miles, so for me the Supercharger cost is $0.00. So I would have waited a couple min if needed.

[Haavok1]

How much is an average kWh when u are charging

[Zaxxon]

How much is an average kWh when u are charging

At home? $0.10. At fast chargers, usually $0.30-$0.46.

[coopasonic]

After driving a Tesla for nearly 6 years, next week will be my first time needing to use Fast Charging. I’ll be driving my son to college orientation. 330 miles each way. I’m both excited and starting to understand the concept of range anxiety. Realistically a quick stop mid way is all I’ll need but that doesn’t make me super confident.

[Zaxxon]

After driving a Tesla for nearly 6 years, next week will be my first time needing to use Fast Charging. I’ll be driving my son to college orientation. 330 miles each way. I’m both excited and starting to understand the concept of range anxiety. Realistically a quick stop mid way is all I’ll need but that doesn’t make me super confident.

You're taking interstates? Is there any reason to be concerned?

[coopasonic]

After driving a Tesla for nearly 6 years, next week will be my first time needing to use Fast Charging. I’ll be driving my son to college orientation. 330 miles each way. I’m both excited and starting to understand the concept of range anxiety. Realistically a quick stop mid way is all I’ll need but that doesn’t make me super confident.

You're taking interstates? Is there any reason to be concerned?

I have options. Frisco, TX to Lubbock, TX if you want to look for yourself and share thoughts. I leave next Monday so haven’t really looked with intent yet.

[Isgrimnur]

I-20 keeps you on Interstate until after Sweetwater.