Octopus Overlords

I Robot and I Am Legend are enough evidence that he shouldn't be writing science fiction....or fiction in general.

As for Discovery, I also agree that the myceleal thing was kind of stupid. I think they even realized that and have been trying to downplay or even write it out of the show for a while now (although I didn't find the resolution of season 1 as awful as you did). And while Discovery certainly has its stupid bits, it at least tries to capture the feeling of classic Trek. The strength of the show though has to be its characters. They do a great job (for the most part) of making them feel lived in and 3 dimensional. I recently went back and watched some of the Trek Shorts on Paramount Plus, and I was again reminded that Zora has been in the making for a while now.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:10 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:01 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:52 am I also find it humorous that a group of super beings held peace talks a long time ago that ended up with a genie bottle for future communication.

....yeah, the dumb on this show is staggering when you hold it up to the light.

Right. So I just did a sanity check and looked up the showrunner for this and it's Akiva Goldsman. Responsible for screenwriting Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, I am Legend, I, Robot, the DaVinci Code movies. Guess that explains all of this.

Also the showrunner for ST: Discovery, though. Which certainly has its whoppers at times (honestly the whole myceleal network thing is a little dumb, and the big resolution at the end of season 1 was incredibly stupid) but overall it's just a lot smarter and better done. Makes me think he's less involved in that one?

Fuller or Kurtzman are/were the big chair showrunners on Discovery. Goldsman provided support. And only 1st season and part of 2 I think. But still Goldsman's record is pretty much chock full of dumb even if a nugget of good appeared.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:13 am That essentially the whole season is set in 2024 United States is certainly part of what I dislike about the season, since the whole season doesn't have any, you know, Stars, and fairly minimal Trekking. But honestly the main thing that I hate about it is that the writing is just so stupid. Sure, Jurati has to do a musical number to save the crew, but oh wait that singing gave the secret Borg Queen inside her head just the opportunity to take over her mind! But the Borg Queen has to randomly shatter some restaurant's window in order to keep control! Oh, and to gain the ability to assimilate the Borg Queen has to eat f'ing car batteries that would annihilate Jurati's body but somehow doesn't.

I mean...sure, that all might as well happen. I will say that I am winding up enjoying this season in kind of a hate watch fashion, plus I'm enjoying watching youtube videos after each episode ruthlessly mocking how stupid it is.

I'd completely forgotten about the musical number. Honestly, I think everything is just so forgettable about this season. It feels like a series of mad-libs strung along without much sense or purpose. Worse yet, I doubt the showrunner will realize the downward spiral the show's gone in and will claim 100% success. Every time I watch a scene, I keep wondering where they're going with it. But time and time again, it feels like there's no real rhyme or reason for things happening, and the show feels very scattered and unfocused as a result. If by showing bleakness, Trek should also be able to show that there's hope and that not all is lost, but my feeling is that Picard isn't even entertaining that.

It's one of those rare instances where I disagree with the critics and agree with the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes (the site that rated me Certified Fresh). On RT it has a 92 percent critics rating, and a 34 percent audience rating.

Yeah, that's the inverse scenario that The Orville was in. First season was hammered by critics while the audience loved it. It was such an odd even split, and they'd gotten it so wrong they had all come around by the second season.

With the Abrams movies, I was disappointed and never watched the two other movies. I've felt since then, Trek's been coasting on name recognition alone. I even feel Picard is more in line with the Abrams movies in terms of ideals and plot. The plot feels written by 7 year olds.

I didn't mind the Abrams' Star Treks. They were fun and entertaining at times. Plus, he did seem to understand the characters to a degree, which made for some nostalgic moments....even if artificial in a way. Were they the Star Trek I wanted? No, not really. But I didn't find them insultingly bad, like I do with Picard.

I'm also of the mind that Orville isn't/wasn't all that great, so I agree with the critics. It wants to be The Family Guy version of Star Trek way too often, and I find that distracting/annoying. Sometimes it does display some Star Trek level story telling, but then McFarlane goes and adds in a fart joke or references pop culture from the 21st century (apparently that's the only period anyone remembers on Orville because they NEVER reference any other point in history for these jokes) in a way intended to be humorous, and it collapses.

FWIW, Season 2 was much better than the first. It had much better storytelling and the humor was more mature and better integrated into the stories rather than being like skits. There was much less of fart level jokes during that season than there were in the first.

We enjoyed the Orville for what it was and generally agree that S2 had stronger themes and was less immature joke wise.

Episode 8 has so far been one of the better episodes. But that's not saying much. The show in general has some big pacing issues, which were also present in the first season. And it doesn't help that with the way they cut to the cliffhanger at the end of the episodes, the following episode has to retread so much ground which breaks a lot of the momentum.


And everyone is broken. Even Q, which they can't put together again. The Borg Queen isn't what's futile in this series. It's the writing and plotting which really feel like they're going nowhere. I seriously feel like the serialized nature of these shows will be their undoing. It only really works if the stories are interesting and coherent enough, which they're not.

Episode 9 of Picard season 2 kept reminding me of a bad cable movies from twenty years ago. Some of the effects are bad, and the writing's not much better. I really can't accept this as something made by Trek-loving fans (and I still have that problem with Discovery after catching up, too). I'm OK with the advancement of certain non-main plot points...some have been pretty interesting. But the dialogue and scenes surrounding them feels hollow.

One of my favorite Soong moments is the genius scientist and master planner deciding the best way to prevent an astronaut from fulfilling their destiny is to hit her with his car in front of a public event. He makes Snidely Whiplash look like Moriarty.

Why cant we get a good space sci fi that isn't Trek? Why does it always have to have Star Trek attached to it?

Expanse, Firefly, Mandalorian, Babylon 5, Far Out Space Nuts....I mean, there are plenty.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:36 am Why cant we get a good space sci fi that isn't Trek? Why does it always have to have Star Trek attached to it?

Oh there's plenty. It's just not Star Trek

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:31 am One of my favorite Soong moments is the genius scientist and master planner deciding the best way to prevent an astronaut from fulfilling their destiny is to hit her with his car in front of a public event. He makes Snidely Whiplash look like Moriarty.

That was pure desperation! We should really take it up with the Security Lead on-site. I mean the idea that an insanely secure event where every face is being biometrically validated in real-time would skimp on security *right outside the doors*? Talk about an overreliance on security gadgets instead of basic tried and true process. They actually missed folks carrying a badly injured person away to who knows what sort of fate awaited them.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:58 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:31 am One of my favorite Soong moments is the genius scientist and master planner deciding the best way to prevent an astronaut from fulfilling their destiny is to hit her with his car in front of a public event. He makes Snidely Whiplash look like Moriarty.

That was pure desperation! We should really take it up with the Security Lead on-site. I mean the idea that an insanely secure event where every face is being biometrically validated in real-time would skimp on security *right outside the doors*? Talk about an overreliance on security gadgets instead of basic tried and true process. They actually missed folks carrying a badly injured person away to who knows what sort of fate awaited them.

Also - maybe don't take the person that you apprehended to the central security control room? Just stick her in a closet or something.

Now I’m just watching it to make fun of it.

I think one of my favorite things about season 2 is that they’ve given up on making a show set in any semblance of Star Trek and have decided to just set up action scenes that sound cool on paper….but then they have one writer who doesn’t understand this and continually brings the entire show to a screeching halt so he can show Picard having mommy issues through flashbacks. If it were possible to get whiplash from this constantly happening, I’d be suing the pants off them.

News at 11! Disgruntled Scientist Runs over Retired Starfleet Admiral!

It's not even so much the action scenes that are the problem. It's that there's hardly followup or consequence or logic to much of what's happening on screen. In terms of Picard, his character lends more to having an introspective story. It should be a chance to explore what's been going on in his world since he left Starfleet, but they're clearly not interested in doing that. Instead, the show is filled will platitudes that absolutely lead nowhere. It's a very shallow representation of Picard's character.

Michelle Hurd, who plays Raffi, is married to Garret Dillahunt. If your show sucks, you should always bring him on board to make things better. Are you listening, Paramount?

Also, here’s something ESPECIALLY effing stupid about episode 9
This show makes Abram’s Star Trek movies look like Citizen Kane.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 9:41 pmIt's not even so much the action scenes that are the problem. It's that there's hardly followup or consequence or logic to much of what's happening on screen.

Sort of like when Raffi pulls out a phaser she isn't supposed to have and vaporizes a police car's window in the cop shop parking lot in plain sight. Only to moments later demonstrate she didn't need to if she only waited but 5 seconds to just open the door with her gadget. I think it is a ham-fisted way to show us the audience for the hundredth time that Raffi's sad and wants to break things. But then that is followed up by a variant of the 'out of control horse' trope where 7 sort of knows how to drive, but only at high speed, which she can't handle, unless she needs to pull off dangerous high-skill manuevers. In the end it is complete filler consisting of her just driving her out of control horse around like a lunatic for absolutely no reason and eventually no consequences.

Yeah or Jurati/Borg Queen smashing the store windows. Why this has to happen is puzzling, as there's no real precedent for it happening. Then there was the random smashing of a bottle on the street. The whole show is based around situational story developments that mean little. It should have been more character-driven from the get-go, a sort of Character study on life after Starfleet.

I really wish I had something to offer other than shared disappointment. I didn't hate some of the individual plot elements this season, but the execution of the story is just embarrassing. I thought this show might have the capability to redeem itself after season one.

One more nit to pick on the whole shenanigans at the police station sequence. They establish very clearly that the reason they can't find Rios is because the police don't know where ICE prisoners are...unless you use the computer in the car? And then you can get the exact bus and real-time coordinates of the bus. WTF. Embarrassing is right.

Yeah, the writing has been baffingly simple at best. I mean, whatever happened to 'the writing is in the details"? I really wish Picard as a character would have been given a better treatment than this. It makes me surprised Stewart signed off on this. He'd originally said he'd only ever do it if they found a good way to bring him back in. But this isn't it. Not by a longshot.

All they're doing is setting up action scene after action scene (except for that one writer, who I will call Ned, who never got the memo and keeps writing the mommy scenes). They've given up any pretense of making them organic to the show, or even logical.

Honesty, I don't want a season 3 as I have no faith they can redeem themselves.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 8:51 am All they're doing is setting up action scene after action scene (except for that one writer, who I will call Ned, who never got the memo and keeps writing the mommy scenes). They've given up any pretense of making them organic to the show, or even logical.

Honesty, I don't want a season 3 as I have no faith they can redeem themselves.

Yeah, I can't wait to see Season 3, as I imagine they'll have the TNG crew reunite to do a train heist in the 19th century wild west or some shit.

And honestly, the way they did the season 3 teaser mid-season feels a bit like Paramount was like "oh shit, you guys don't like this? Well....we're bringing back all those people that you like, so we're good, right???"

At this rate they'll be doing a groundhog's day episode for season 3....that's the usual final act of a creatively bankrupt writing team.

p.s. just out of curiosity, why does Tallinn's transporter cause people to go poof in a cloud of smoke? I mean, did her people base all their technology on stage magic?

The smoke transporter - yeah. I don't know. I think they just wanted to differentiate things. Like why are the new borg teleporting green? Is that a nod that she somehow built borg transporter tech here on earth? I don't know. Maybe but they don't even really explain it. It's pure story effect.

Another random thought for me is Soong. Beyond his paper thin motive I was thinking about his technology. The cloning. It's plausible. You could imagine that working in even our 2024. But the drones that can generate an energy shield that can block out UV radiation? He should be one of the richest man on earth. Instead he is trying to run down astronauts in parking lots.

I would LOVE to see a race that based their technology on stage magic though.

Faced with the Borg?

"Pick a card"

Klingons?

"Get in this box so I can saw you in half, Commander K'Dar!"

Also - has there been any explanation about why she looks exactly like the woman who lives in Chateau Picard with him in the present?

Saves having to hire another actress?

Poofs of smoke aren't cheap, man.

She "might" be an ancestor was as close as they got. Apparently genetic recombination breaks down completely around 2024 and every generation starts to look exactly the same.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 8:51 am All they're doing is setting up action scene after action scene (except for that one writer, who I will call Ned, who never got the memo and keeps writing the mommy scenes). They've given up any pretense of making them organic to the show, or even logical.

Honesty, I don't want a season 3 as I have no faith they can redeem themselves.

Yeah, the only way I'd want Season 3 at this point is if they shove the writers out an airlock. Because with the fact that they're getting the crew back together, it's bound to be excuse after excuse for getting them together rather than any logical reason for doing so, or with anything meaningful to say about it.

The show seems strangely to be in its own little continuity. It hardly ever references past events, or anything of its current political climate, and therefore doesn't feel like it has a place anywhere in its universe. It may be life after Starfleet, but throw us a bone in terms of world development! And I'm not just talking about the Borg or Romulans either. Where's everything else? What are the Klingons up to? Cardassians? Ferengi? Helloooo, Bueller! If there's a show that would be able to make those connections, it would technically be Picard. But instead it's all gone mope-valley central. "Oh woe is me. I'm an old fart who's become cynical as shit." For as dark as their world has become, I'm surprised Picard also can't see shit.

Honestly, I feel streaming has damaged the brand. They're making so many Treks right now. They seem more interested in getting people to subscribe for their service instead focusing on fewer quality shows. So they'll put lots of them out there, and they can't exactly cancel them out of rating concerns. What it's doing is diluting the brand and experiences associated with them. But they'll continue to make them to set up more income to support their streaming services. Wouldn't be so bad if they were all good experiences, but they're clearly not.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 10:07 am Also - has there been any explanation about why she looks exactly like the woman who lives in Chateau Picard with him in the present?

My estimated guess would be that because of this being an alternate timeline, people are in different time and places as compared to their counterparts. When Q first sends him to this alternate version, she was nowhere to be found when it came to his vineyard. Instead, there was this android. It seems to be that it's not just an alternate version of the timeline, but one in which a time displacement has occurred as well, and the people he knows are in actually different roles and not where you'd expect them, similar to how Seven was President of the Federation.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 12:59 pm Wouldn't be so bad if they were all good experiences, but they're clearly not.

I like Discovery a great deal, and the upcoming Pike series looks good. The only other ones they have are the cartoons (Lower Deck and Prodigy...the latter of which I haven't seen as it's supposedly a more kid focused show, and the former I've grown to somewhat like due to its frequent fan service via the easter eggs they toss in for fans). Nature will take its course and weed out the crap as times goes on. I'd rather have a bunch of Star Trek and some of it good, than no Star Trek at all (which was the case for a very long time).

( I still can't keep track of which show this thread is about - Discovery? Picard? New Worlds?)

It's like the board gaming forums that discuss 18 different ones per page. Although we only have about 5 things to choose from in this one.

The board gaming threads aren't really a spoiler concern when you've played some of the games, but not all of them.

Ah, it's spoilers you're concerned with. Got it.

Here's my spoiler free advice:

Avoid Picard.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 1:19 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 12:59 pm Wouldn't be so bad if they were all good experiences, but they're clearly not.

I like Discovery a great deal, and the upcoming Pike series looks good.

Yeah, what I meant was that they're uneven at best. Discovery has its moments and when it shines, it truly shines, but clearly when it comes to the rest, the brand is not firing on all cylinders. You have a series like Picard that feels quite at odds with what came before, like a bargain basement chinese knockoff attempt at Trek.
And yeah, while the Pike series does look good, we still don't know if it will be. Picard initially looked good via the trailers, but look at the disappointment it caused. I just don't know if I could stand another disappointment in Trek at this point.

Picard is probably one of those things that sounded great on paper, but when it came time to put it together, it was terribly executed by giving it to the wrong showrunners and writers that likely never understood their source material. It's a pale imitation and the ideas don't quite come together like they should be. Honestly, I think Frakes should have been tagged as showrunner as someone with direct links to the TNG and 24th Century Trek.