Octopus Overlords

El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:21 am One can make of that what one will.

Crooked Hillary.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:21 am There is a clear correlation between education levels and having voted for Trump or supporting Trump. One can make of that what one will.

I was kinda sorta also hinting that 'uninformed' is probably highly correlated to 'uneducated/undereducated'. And I'm not talking about whether or not someone has a college degree. Some people just aren't curious about things, in general, and much less politics, as YK pointed out. We saw again and again people interviewed about why they voted for Trump, and it's basically because they identify with his "straight talk" and very likely, limited, simple speech. "He talks like me."

Now think of the eloquent speech of a black constitutional law professor, and they couldn't find ONE thing to identify with. Intelligent, even nerdy, eloquent, super educated, black, wordy, professorial. Same for Hillary - she was very wonkish, and spoke intelligently most of the time. I feel the hate for Hillary was as high or higher than Obama, so skin color doesn't explain everything. And I don't think it's merely "they weren't on my team". I really think it's tapping some kind of "they are smarter than me, and I'm jealous and/or don't trust them, because I don't care about the things they care about, or I have no clue about them" It might also explain the Bush Jr. love. The anti-education crowd LOVED him...just a simple guy, with simple words that could easily be understood.

I'll say it again, I think we are less in a culture war, than an education war. Could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:34 amI'll say it again, I think we are less in a culture war, than an education war. Could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Could be that they are the same thing. Highly educated people of any background have more in common with each other than they do with folks from a similar beginning that have much much less education. The culture surrounding higher education in many ways defines us more deeply than that of our origins.

I think calling Trump supporters uneducated racists is working fine, you should keep on doing it.

Rip wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:22 pm I think calling Trump supporters uneducated racists is working fine, you should keep on doing it.

When the white cowl fits the white cowl fits.

Rip wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:22 pm I think calling Trump supporters uneducated racists is working fine, you should keep on doing it.

Ah, it's one of those days where you totally support him. I'm getting old and can't keep up with the changes. When he does something extraordinarily stupid you tend to vacillate a bit.

Rip wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:22 pm I think calling Trump supporters uneducated racists is working fine, you should keep on doing it.

I'm good with that too.

minus the ninja, I guess.

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here. Thus the correlation.

Nothing passive aggressive about it.

Rip wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:22 pm I think calling Trump supporters uneducated racists is working fine, you should keep on doing it.

OK, thanks for your approval. I will continue to call out racism when I see it.

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here. Thus the correlation.

Nothing passive aggressive about it.

I'm perfectly calm. I'm just tired of you coming in just to let us know about your disapproval of whatever conversation is annoying you this week.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you were passive aggressive.

If you want to talk about the bombings, start a freakin' thread. I'm sure many of us will participate. It's not the forum's responsibility to make sure topics are already underway when you arrive, so I'm not sure why you would criticize it instead of meaningfully participating.

There is plenty going on to get passive aggressive about for everyone. This IS the darkest timeline, after all.

geezer wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:03 pm

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

I can only imagine how awful that must feel. I hope you folks catch the evil son of a bitch soon.

geezer wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:03 pm

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

I was living in Maryland just outside DC in 2002 when the DC sniper happened and understand the shift in perspective. Hope they catch the guy soon and stay safe.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:06 pm

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here. Thus the correlation.

Nothing passive aggressive about it.

I'm perfectly calm. I'm just tired of you coming in just to let us know about your disapproval of whatever conversation is annoying you this week.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you were passive aggressive.

If you want to talk about the bombings, start a freakin' thread. I'm sure many of us will participate. It's not the forum's responsibility to make sure topics are already underway when you arrive, so I'm not sure why you would criticize it instead of meaningfully participating.

Oh man, so close to this scene!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5VT-ofxdh4

Is Trump or his flunkies never going to be kicked out or better yet arrested for anything??

geezer wrote:

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

I heard about a trip wire. I'm wondering if the "wrong" target tripped it or the bomber screwed up. It's very strange.

Stay safe man.

stessier wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:18 pm

geezer wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:03 pm

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

I was living in Maryland just outside DC in 2002 when the DC sniper happened and understand the shift in perspective. Hope they catch the guy soon and stay safe.

I'm from that area, and most of my family still lives there. I'd honestly forgotten about it until I heard people drawing parallels today, but now that I think about it the "feeling" in the community seems to be similar.

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:19 pm

geezer wrote:

tjg_marantz wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am I'm not sure I understand that. Was it snark or something else?

If tjg wants to talk about something, then he should talk about something. If he doesn't like what people are talking about, he should say so. I'm not a fan of passive aggressive.

Christ man chill out. I did talk about something, the Austin bombings. I don't like that their President hasn't said shit about it. There is no thread about the bombings here.

We're all a little freaked out here. The latest bombing is slightly out of pattern in both location and technique, so now it's moving from concern and morbid curiosity to nervous...

I heard about a trip wire. I'm wondering if the "wrong" target tripped it or the bomber screwed up. It's very strange.

Stay safe man.

Doing our best! Yeah - the latest one is really strange.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:21 am There is a clear correlation between education levels and having voted for Trump or supporting Trump. One can make of that what one will.

While it paints a picture, it still means that 37% of college graduates support him and obviously the number is much higher if you're asking people who identify Republican. Insulting their intelligence is not likely to garner you any support in the mid-terms. Generally speaking, who cares, but the vote totals in PA18 were close enough that you should.

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-instit ... us_031918/

Essentially says that 74% of Americans believe in the Deep State. They go into some tangents related to that all of which, I think, are interesting.

I wonder if this is more or less enlightening than the education bit?
I honestly don't know but I think it plays at least a role.

My posting skills are in poor repair so y'all will have to be content with a mere link. My apologies.

EDIT: to say that finding 74% of people to agree on ANYTHING is pretty remarkable, no matter the reasoning behind it. I'd be surprised if you could get 74% of people to agree it's daytime at noon

The best and simplest reason to stop treating people like dicks is to stop treating people like dicks.

A big part of the reason that we're in this mess is because both sides have spent the last couple of decades slowly escalating from disagreeing with the opposition to openly hating the opposition. Each side refuses to listen to the other because the other side has become a 'them.' Each side has dehumanized the other much the way soldiers do in war (krauts, libruls, japs, snowflakes, trumpists.) We're not going to get anywhere until we deescalate back to civility.

And you deescalate by not treating other people - whether you agree with them or not - like dicks.

Even if it winds up being useless, I'll at least be happy to be able to claim I wasn't gleefully making it worse along with the masses.

We've been over this. This exact conversation happened before and during the election.

Here's the deal. If you're going to behave like a racist dick, then you can't vote a piece of crap into the white house just because someone calls you deplorable. Well you can, but that makes you a deplorable dick.

Listen, I get it. In a hostage situation you don't start making jokes about the guy's momma. The idea that the governance of the US is being held hostage by trumpalopes is not an unreasonable one. In fact Rip has gleefully alluded to that idea multiple times.

The problem as I see it, is that people are willing to flush everyone down the toilet if they aren't allowed to openly be racist dicks with no one calling them on their racist dickishness.

The solution is not to capitulate to the hostage taking, it's active campaigning. It's not treating deplorable dicks as equals with valid viewpoints, because they chose to be deplorable dicks BEFORE you called them that. They are perfectly happy being deplorable dicks, they want to continue to be deplorable dicks, they just don't want you judging them for it, otherwise they'll flush the whole god damn system down the toilet like children throwing a tantrum.

The solution is not to treat their deplorably dickish viewpoints with respect and openmindedness, unless the goal is to return to pre-civil rights America, and if that's the goal, then just flush the whole thing. I'd rather you guys put a bullet in your country's head than settle on a compromise where brown people are scary and ostracized and America is Great Again, but only for (some) white people.

GungHo wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:51 am I'd be surprised if you could get 74% of people to agree it's daytime at noon

Maybe in your time zone.

Of course there's a deep state, if you mean career civil servants who don't face elections. There's nothing nefarious about people keeping their heads down and doing their jobs. That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:33 am Each side refuses to listen to the other because the other side has become a 'them.' Each side has dehumanized the other much the way soldiers do in war (krauts, libruls, japs, snowflakes, trumpists.)

That's what I'd expect you people to say.

The basic premise that governance of the US is being held hostage somehow is laughable.

The sky isn't falling Henny Penny.

That suggesting it is because you don't agree with the decisions being made is hyperbole and fear mongering, nothing more.

Relax everyone, Rip says you can call deplorables as you see them, no one is going to do anything stupid with their vote just because you hurt their feelings and they're not going to stigginit to anyone.

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:33 am A big part of the reason that we're in this mess is because both sides have spent the last couple of decades slowly escalating from disagreeing with the opposition to openly hating the opposition. Each side refuses to listen to the other because the other side has become a 'them.' Each side has dehumanized the other much the way soldiers do in war (krauts, libruls, japs, snowflakes, trumpists.) We're not going to get anywhere until we deescalate back to civility.

This is a big part of the problem. People in general still can't accept that this isn't a both sides issue. This is a one sided issue. The Republican party is demonstrably much, much worse. They are the problem.

And you deescalate by not treating other people - whether you agree with them or not - like dicks.

The dicks were dicks already. The Republicans just weaponized their racism. They weaponized their ignorance. The Republicans became more extreme because they've gradually shrank their base courting them and now have to resort to 'cheats' like gerrymandering, voter disenfranchisement, and more to keep power. They are essentially becoming an authoritarian party out of necessity. This is why it is coming to a head because they can't retain power and protect white privilege much longer without throwing the whole shooting match out.

Even if it winds up being useless, I'll at least be happy to be able to claim I wasn't gleefully making it worse along with the masses.

It isn't the masses. The masses are appalled right now. We are held hostage by an angry minority of the majority.

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:44 am The solution is not to treat their deplorably dickish viewpoints with respect and openmindedness

I agree! The problem is that most people don't know how to treat the viewpoint different from the holder of that view. And yes, doing disgusting things can make you a disgusting person. This ties in with my second point: You absolutely can treat people with disgusting viewpoints with disrespect and hatred. As long as you're willing to accept the cost of doing so - which is an endless quagmire of openly hostile tribalism/partisanship. I don't think the cost is worth venting my anger at human beings.

Anyway, remember when someone said that people hesitate before posting a viewpoint because it is exhausting having the 90% jump down your throat for not going along with the crowd?

The single biggest problem is that we, on the left, seem incapable of believing that there are some who support Trump that are not racist dicks and/or ignorant and those are the people making up the difference. There are still angry voters out there who are not racist or ignorant but whom have become so hopeless with the way things are that they became and remain willing to risk Trump's agenda because they have fully embraced the idea that the left's agenda gains them nothing. We need to address their needs to be able to court their votes. And no, their needs are not to be handed anything but rather to be shown a path to some sort of stable future. Trump waves the illusion of one before them and they flock to him because we don't offer them anything.

The service based economy isn't going to work in rural areas where there aren't people and few are wealthy. The Democrats need an economic message for those voting out of economic insecurity. Give working people less excuses to hate brown people.

But the deplorable racists are going to back Trump until the end. So fuck them, but remind all Trump voters that he's done nothing but a tax cut for himself and those who stay in Trump properties. No opioid solution. No economic ideas other than a trade war. No foreign policy. No solution to gun violence. Just chaos that he revels in while nothing gets done.

Zarathud wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 am remind all Trump voters that he's done nothing but a tax cut for himself and those who stay in Trump properties. No opioid solution. No economic ideas other than a trade war. No foreign policy. No solution to gun violence. Just chaos that he revels in while nothing gets done.

If we are going to convert their votes then we need to tell them what WE are going to do. Pointing out that Trump has done nothing for them will just play into his message that we are blocking him from doing anything. We need to combine the truth of his uselessness with the promise of action on their behalf.

Hence the 2 parts -- (1) an economic message coupled with (2) Trump's epic incompetence and unworthiness to lead. #2 is an easy argument.

I mean, you can say 2 is an easy argument, but it's been an easy argument for a very long time. Those folks, by and large, aren't buying it.

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:46 am

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:44 am The solution is not to treat their deplorably dickish viewpoints with respect and openmindedness

I agree! The problem is that most people don't know how to treat the viewpoint different from the holder of that view. And yes, doing disgusting things can make you a disgusting person. This ties in with my second point: You absolutely can treat people with disgusting viewpoints with disrespect and hatred. As long as you're willing to accept the cost of doing so - which is an endless quagmire of openly hostile tribalism/partisanship. I don't think the cost is worth venting my anger at human beings.

Anyway, remember when someone said that people hesitate before posting a viewpoint because it is exhausting having the 90% jump down your throat for not going along with the crowd?

Come on, man, no one is jumping down your throat. And I for one, highly value your input here, and welcome your balancing voice. Goo can be a bit direct, but I think most of us are grown ups and can take his somewhat aggressive posting style.

There have been some great points raised in the past several posts, namely (summing up for my own brain):

1. Even though data shows a negative correlation between voting for Trump and education, it's probably a bad idea to call that out since it's highly insulting to any higher than average-educated Trump voters, and ends up pushing them farther away.
2. Escalating the culture/education/political war is not going to benefit anyone. Only by reversing the trend of the past couple of decades of increasing partisanship, will we become better as a nation. Continuing on the same path of us vs them will only make things worse for the entire country, so neither "side" wins in that scenario. But the country seems more divided today than it has been in a long time (at least in modern times), with signs of even further divisiveness for the future.
3. Pandering to, or even tolerating, the extreme voices on the right is not an acceptable response. Many people see Trump support as de facto "extreme" but in actuality, there were plenty of non-racist Trump voters, who were only voting party. Lumping those voters in with the racists and the other 'ists' in the current resurgent nastiness, is again, probably a strategic mistake if someone is trying to win future elections.

Personally, I completely get Blackhawk's comments, and agree...to an extent. It saddens me that we seemingly suddenly find ourselves at each others' throats here (country, not OO). We are definitely now shouting at each other, if you will, and a strong 'us vs them' mentality is already in place. I guess the cynic in me does not see this trend moving to us all holding hands and working together as a country, with Dems and Reps having lunch together again, as before. At least some kind of bi-partisanship was possible not even that long ago, but now? Pfft.

I sure don't know the answer, but I have to say that GG's words resonate strongly with me, in terms of not tolerating hate, or even white-washing it. I really think we must have a no tolerance attitude toward it, and by backing off(even if it means political losses), we diminish ourselves. There is a line somewhere in there between GG's position and BH's, but I''ll be damned if I know where it is.

malchior wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 am

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:33 am A big part of the reason that we're in this mess is because both sides have spent the last couple of decades slowly escalating from disagreeing with the opposition to openly hating the opposition. Each side refuses to listen to the other because the other side has become a 'them.' Each side has dehumanized the other much the way soldiers do in war (krauts, libruls, japs, snowflakes, trumpists.) We're not going to get anywhere until we deescalate back to civility.

This is a big part of the problem. People in general still can't accept that this isn't a both sides issue. This is a one sided issue. The Republican party is demonstrably much, much worse. They are the problem.

Blackhawk has a point. The last couple of decades has definitely seen a escalation from disagreeing with the opposition to openly hating the opposition. Living in the DC area is a prime example of this. Even going back to the early 2000s, there is a very large subset of people who want NOTHING to do with someone of the opposite political party because a vote for GWB made them an evil person.

I was told by someone once when I mentioned that I had voted for Romney in 2012 that I was trying to control her uterus. Me, personally, trying to control her uterus by voting for Romney.

My dad has gotten worse, too. He still can't believe that I didn't vote for Donald Trump. If he knew who I really voted for, I shudder to think how he'd respond. He's highly educated, but retired, and has fallen into the "FAKE NEWS" trap by watching too much Fox News and listening to too much right wing talk radio.

Yes, one party is currently objectively worse than the other. But there are ugly people entrenched on both sides who want nothing more than to see the opposition party, and it supporters, burn, so they can remain safely ensconced in their liberal/conservative bubble and not have to hear from the other side at all.

Zarathud wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 am but remind all Trump voters that he's done nothing but a tax cut for himself and those who stay in Trump properties.

That is going to be hard to sell in 30s commercials. I'm definitely getting more back next year, but I have read enough to know what that means, what was given up to get it, and what is going to happen in a few years. Hoping the general populace has read as much is not likely to turn out well.

No opioid solution.

He put out a plan to execute the dealers. People in my neck of the woods are glad to see someone suggesting such a tough stance.

No economic ideas other than a trade war.

Again, the people around here see the stock market up and are glad that someone is standing up to the governments dumping products in our market. I've tried to have discussions with them about this. It is very depressing.

No solution to gun violence.

No solution to ending world hunger either. A better phrasing would be "taking steps to curb gun violence." It's not something that someone is just going to wake up one day and solve.

stessier wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:28 am

No opioid solution.

He put out a plan to execute the dealers. People in my neck of the woods are glad to see someone suggesting such a tough stance.

Supplier-side economics doesn't work, either.

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:07 am

stessier wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:28 am

No opioid solution.

He put out a plan to execute the dealers. People in my neck of the woods are glad to see someone suggesting such a tough stance.

Supplier-side economics doesn't work, either.

I'm just saying you are going to have to build a case and it's not going to be easy to keep people's attention that long.

Rip wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:42 am The basic premise that governance of the US is being held hostage somehow is laughable.

The sky isn't falling Henny Penny.

That suggesting it is because you don't agree with the decisions being made is hyperbole and fear mongering, nothing more.

Laughable like desperate laughable? Or maniacal laughable? That you can't see a very small minority is controlling the US against the wishes of the people and the states in the name of preventing the tyranny of the majority while redefining the law because they control government. Well, it's not laughable. It's lamentable. A minority of voters seized power by the nature of the institution of preventing the majority from trampling them. They took that power and expanded it through gerrymandering. They intended to vote their wallets and their (a?)moral agendas. They have since been exploited by a smaller minority with their own wallets and amoral agendas and they don't want to be wrong so they eat their shit sandwich in the name Ayn Rand or Donald Trump or Guns or God and they expect me to be happy about having to partake. Fuck that.

When we break gerrymandering I will accept that we are not being held hostage. This is my government but at this point it's by accident of birth not out of love for what we have. The institution has no respect for the institution, why should I?