The Apprentice Season 2 - The Second Presidency of Donald Trump

[Skinypupy]

I just don’t see the movement coalescing around anyone other than Trump. It’s a cult of personality.

I dunno, seems like MAGA coalesced around Musk pretty easily. He can't be POTUS (for now) but it seems like he's simply the next in line assuming Trump doesn't throw him under the bus.

[Zaxxon]

I’m beating a dead horse on this point, I know, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that as Trump goes, so goes MAGA. I just don’t see the movement coalescing around anyone other than Trump. It’s a cult of personality. If they aren’t able to completely undermine the Constitution and turn this country into a totalitarian state before Trump dies (hopefully ASAP and of natural causes), I think there’s a chance we make it out of this. I realize that’s a very big IF, but I’m saying there’s a chance.

The problem (well, a problem--we have so many, at this point) is that now the destruction has reached 'point of no return' level, at least in a time frame measured in 'the remainder of my life.' The institutional knowledge being destroyed across the government is not coming back. The loss of trust across the world is not coming back. The ability of the American people to exhibit reason when voting (or ruling) and to vote to advance their own self-interests and those shared national self-interests are certainly not coming back during this generation's time in the sun.

Coming back from Trump 1.0? Sure, could have happened. This time? Not a chance. Now, 'come back' with such a low-bar definition of 'well, at least we're not a fully totalitarian state!'

Maybe.

[Blackhawk]

Coming back would have to be a reboot, not a continuation.

[GreenGoo]

A country is such a complicated, interconnected self referential machine that we are only discussing the obvious, surface problems right now. The cascading damage being done won't be completely identified for years, if then, and only by scholars spending a life time of study to do so.

I used to think drumpf was going to be a historical figure of some importance, like other despotic narcissists, except far stupider, but now I think he's going to be a footnote. The main historical texts will be about the collapse of America, and how it happened in the blink of an eye despite rot being identified and pointed out again and again. How no one did anything, and many cheered it on, many of who were Americans.

At this point drumpf is meaningless. MAGA is equally meaningless. Your government and everything that relies on it (which is most of the country) is being gutted. There's no coming back from that even if drumpf and MAGA vanish after this term (which they won't). Not in an election cycle or two, that's for sure. Particularly when many will be fighting against any recovery attempts.

@Kraken: the world will be fine. I realize you are being rhetorical, but let's keep a little perspective. It will be different, but it will be fine. The USA? Gone in the same sense that USSR is gone. We witnessed one super power collapse in our life time. Now we get to watch another one.

[YellowKing]

I'm not on board the "American Empire is dead" train yet. I feel like we're only a month into this administration and way too close to the subject matter to really know how this will all play out. Hell, most pundits couldn't even predict one election correctly, and now we're supposed to forecast the generational impact over the next few decades? Nah.

[Blackhawk]

No, we can't predict where we're going, but we also can't deny the impact of driving away all of our allies, making 'The USA" into an unreliable and untrustworthy partner globally, weakening NATO and the UN and forcing all of our trading partners to start planning how to avoid needing us in the future, and forcing many more European nations to build their own nuclear stockpiles, as they aren't able to rely on ours to protect them anymore. Or firing experts and/or shutting down multiple government agencies, losing all of the knowledge and expertise that we've disposed of, made those people - and future talent - unwilling to see the government as a safe or reliable employer. We've turned people more actively against science and cast medicine into doubt in many peoples' minds. Those things aren't predictions - those are the things that have absolutely happened.

The America that existed in 2024 and before is dead because of those things, the same way the USA prior of 1859 and before ceased to exist at the end of 1860 (the start of the civil war.) That time we came back, but we came back different.

We can't predict what the America of 2028 and beyond will look like, no. But we do that it won't be the nation that we all grew up in. That one's gone. Already.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, we're never going back; we're on a different path now. We've demonstrated we're willing as a nation to hand the keys over to a complete psychopath. How could any nation trust us with their information, their secrets or even their security ever again? It's going to take decades - possibly generations - to rebuild what was weakened between 2016-2020 and now likely destroyed in less than a month to start 2025. And that's assuming we' somehow pull out of the nosedive we're in and correct course quickly. I don't see that happening, but sure, opinions differ.

Regardless, we are absolutely diminished now as a nation.. As I said earlier, I've likened it to experiencing a fatal dose of radiation. Sure, you feel and look fine right now, but you're already dead; you just don't' know it.

Perfect example. This is indefensible and the people cheering this on are absolute ghouls. This is from an official White House social media account. It hasn't even been a month!

[YellowKing]

I'm not denying the damage being done. Or that things will be different than they were before (what else is new?) I'm just saying every generation that has been through a generation-testing low point has felt that there was no way out of their predicament while they were in it.

[Smoove_B]

Oh, we're going to come "out" of it. I'm just not sure we're all going to like what's on the other side.

[Kraken]

@Kraken: the world will be fine. I realize you are being rhetorical, but let's keep a little perspective. It will be different, but it will be fine. The USA? Gone in the same sense that USSR is gone. We witnessed one super power collapse in our life time. Now we get to watch another one.

I don't share your confidence. The post-WW2 order that mostly kept the peace for 80 years is over. Putin won in Ukraine and trump has as much as said that the US will cut Europe loose. We're entering a period where the world's major powers can do whatever the hell they want within their own claimed spheres of influence -- the US in its hemisphere, China in Asia and Africa, Russia in Europe. Instability will quickly follow uncertainty, and the world's dominant military is going rogue.

[Holman]

@Kraken: the world will be fine. I realize you are being rhetorical, but let's keep a little perspective. It will be different, but it will be fine. The USA? Gone in the same sense that USSR is gone. We witnessed one super power collapse in our life time. Now we get to watch another one.

I don't share your confidence. The post-WW2 order that mostly kept the peace for 80 years is over. Putin won in Ukraine and trump has as much as said that the US will cut Europe loose. We're entering a period where the world's major powers can do whatever the hell they want within their own claimed spheres of influence -- the US in its hemisphere, China in Asia and Africa, Russia in Europe. Instability will quickly follow uncertainty, and the world's dominant military is going rogue.

Probably the best we can hope for is global security re-established under Chinese hegemony.

I'm going to tell my kids to learn some basic Mandarin.

[Blackhawk]

I'm not entirely pessimistic, while still standing by what I've said. Once the actual impacts hit and the cost of living for the poor is impossible, and everyone has had a friend or family member moved to a 'camp', and everyone has had a disabled friend or family member made homeless, people will respond.

It's possible (and this is where I hold a little bit of optimism), that we could reboot and the reboot could be without the illusions and lies of the last couple of decades. We could end up better, with more safeguards against it recurring.

Of course, it's also possible that we'll too little, or it will be too late, and we'll be Russians looking at Putin and wondering what happened, knowing that nothing short of nationwide armed revolution has a chance of fixing things.

Time will tell.

[RunningMn9]

I'm not on board the "American Empire is dead" train yet. I feel like we're only a month into this administration and way too close to the subject matter to really know how this will all play out. Hell, most pundits couldn't even predict one election correctly, and now we're supposed to forecast the generational impact over the next few decades? Nah.

What more do you need to see? They have already removed the things that gave America its international power, because they think it’s ONLY about the defense budget (which they are also slashing, along with the domain knowledge they are forcing out the door as we speak). They have no understanding of what made America great, and so they’ve set about destroying those things that actually made America great.

At what point will you be convinced? I’m just not sure what more they could possibly do that would compel you.

[YellowKing]

Again, I'm not denying the harm the administration is doing right now. I'm just not going to make sweeping generalizations about the fall of the 200+ year old American empire because of four weeks of ill-advised budget cuts.

There hasn't been enough time to A) see the true impact of what has occurred, B) see how people will respond to that impact.

[Holman]

Again, I'm not denying the harm the administration is doing right now. I'm just not going to make sweeping generalizations about the fall of the 200+ year old American empire because of four weeks of ill-advised budget cuts.

There hasn't been enough time to A) see the true impact of what has occurred, B) see how people will respond to that impact.

Understood. But it's not just a few weeks. The collapse began decades ago.

The rest of world started noticing our dysfunction almost as soon as the USSR disappeared. Internal political sabotage in DC has been a thing since Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House.

After 9/11, the USA enjoyed an unprecedented level of international goodwill and support, which it immediately squandered under the GW Bush administration.

Obama's election was celebrated worldwide as a sign that the USA had moved beyond the racial divisions of the 20th century. Almost immediately, however, the Tea Party took over the GOP and its racial/political animus ramped up the internal political sabotage.

Trump 1.0 happened and the results were clear over the next four years.

Biden barely won his election (which should have been a landslide), but somehow the US system ignored all of the pressures of the above and tried to believe that they would evaporate on their own. The January 6 insurrection attempt was ignored as if it were just an unruly sports mob. Trump's corruption and crimes were wished away under a laughably compliant Supreme Court.

Now we have Trump 2.0, and we see what it's doing. US government capability is being stripped for parts.

The America of 240+ years is gone. It only existed in the first place through the example and influence it exhibited worldwide. The world now sees America a tottering giant unable to govern itself, let alone exert leadership on a global scale.

We're finished.

[RunningMn9]

Again, I'm not denying the harm the administration is doing right now. I'm just not going to make sweeping generalizations about the fall of the 200+ year old American empire because of four weeks of ill-advised budget cuts.

There hasn't been enough time to A) see the true impact of what has occurred, B) see how people will respond to that impact.

So we’ve kicked out all the support structures to the international order established post-WW2, but you want to wait and see what happens before taking the next step?

I mean as a way to protect your mental health, I get that.

[hepcat]

The America of 240+ years is gone. It only existed in the first place through the example and influence it exhibited worldwide. The world now sees America a tottering giant unable to govern itself, let alone exert leadership on a global scale.

We're finished.

To be fair, we’re actually getting closer to the United States of 240 years ago….which is the problem.

[YellowKing]

but you want to wait and see what happens before taking the next step?

What next step are you talking about? You sound hysterical.

Added smiley because I'm not trying to start an argument. I simply mean that I'm personally not going to freak out about the fall of western civilization...yet. I'm not sure why that provoked such a strong response or why there's a feeling that by not freaking out about circumstances beyond my control I'm somehow part of the problem.

[Blackhawk]

but you want to wait and see what happens before taking the next step?

What next step are you talking about? You sound hysterical.

Yeah, sometimes you just have to laugh at tragedy to maintain sanity.

[Smoove_B]

I'm not sure why that provoked such a strong response or why there's a feeling that by not freaking out about circumstances beyond my control I'm somehow part of the problem.

While I can't speak for my be-stressed friend, let me re-frame: what will you need to see that is going to convince you that we're in trouble? Is there a specific event or something that will happen where you're going to say, "Oh yeah..we're in trouble here."

For me - and I'm saying this as a career (27+ years at this point) public servant at local/county level - seeing how quickly and easily our federal agencies have been (1) taken over and (2) crippled has been stressful (for me) in ways I cannot adequately communicate. Can I do anything about it? Nope. But I can certainly say we're in big trouble.

[RunningMn9]

but you want to wait and see what happens before taking the next step?

What next step are you talking about? You sound hysterical.

To the extent that I sound "hysterical", we can chalk that up to the fact that the short term consequences of this horseshit isn't abstract to me. The thing that I have dedicated my life to over the past fifteen years is under direct threat, and I'm in the middle of waiting to find out if I am getting fired by these people in the next 24 hours. And if I make it through that I get to wait a few weeks to see if I am instead fired due to ill-conceived budget cuts. And if I make it through that, then I get to wait to find out if I will get RIF'd in the next fews months after that. I have been at maximum stress since Jan 20 for obvious reasons.

But what I actually mean is that you agreeing that the damage is done. The next step is "understanding the consequences of the damage that was done".

The implication being that you are drawing a line between seeing the damage done (which you already concede), and accepting that the consequences are "the end of the American Empire". And I noted that I understood you taking that position, even if only to preserve your mental health. In other words, despite what I'm being forced to deal with, I thought I was being quite reasonable and understanding of where you were coming from.

[Rumpy]

When this is all over and he's gone 6 feet under, I hope that the history books really make a point to list the misdeeds and damage he's done.

It's very optimistic to think that this all ends when he dies.

Well, I am a generally optimistic person. Either way, it has to end at some point.

I’m beating a dead horse on this point, I know, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that as Trump goes, so goes MAGA. I just don’t see the movement coalescing around anyone other than Trump. It’s a cult of personality. If they aren’t able to completely undermine the Constitution and turn this country into a totalitarian state before Trump dies (hopefully ASAP and of natural causes), I think there’s a chance we make it out of this. I realize that’s a very big IF, but I’m saying there’s a chance.

Yeah, I agree, which is why I say it has to end at some point. It can't be indefinite. At some point, whoever comes after will want to course-correct.

[Zarathud]

It’s not budget cuts — it’s illegal sequestering of appropriated funds.

Republicans couldn’t pass in Congress what Musk is doing illegally.

[LawBeefaroni]

The White House
@WhiteHouse
"CONGESTION PRICING IS DEAD. Manhattan, and all of New York, is SAVED. LONG LIVE THE KING!"
–President Donald J. Trump

https://www.amny.com/news/governor-hoch ... hallenges/

Hochul, during a press conference at Grand Central Station Wednesday afternoon, took exception to Trump bragging about the move on Truth social, in which he claimed to have “saved New York” from congestion pricing, adding “LONG LIVE THE KING,” in an apparent reference to himself.

“I’m here to say, New York hasn’t labored under a king in over 250 years, and we sure as hell are not going to start now,” the governor said. “The streets of the city where battles were fought, we stood up to a king, and we won then. In case you don’t know New Yorkers, when we’re in a fight, we do not back down — not now, not ever.”

Hochul claims New York is “under siege” by Washington and that “it feels like the commuters of our city and our region are now the road killed on Donald Trump’s revenge tour against New York,” Hochul said.

The governor emphasized the urgency of the situation, indicating that state agencies were prepared for a fight with Trump’s government. Immediately after the Trump administration’s announced Wednesday, the MTA filed a lawsuit to stop the gambit to kill congestion pricing.

[RunningMn9]

It’s not budget cuts — it’s illegal sequestering of appropriated funds.

Republicans couldn’t pass in Congress what Musk is doing illegally.

For me, it’s budget cuts. They announced an annual 8% reduction in the DoD budget for the next four years. While also demanding that we prepare for war at any moment. While also firing anyone they can get away with firing. While also endorsing a budget that increased DoD spending. While also illegally impounding congressionally obligating funding.

[YellowKing]

While I can't speak for my be-stressed friend, let me re-frame: what will you need to see that is going to convince you that we're in trouble?

That's probably where the disconnect is. I'm not denying that we're in trouble. I'm saying I'm not prepared to say that the trouble we're in *at this moment* equates to the "end of the American empire." That's a big leap.

We're in the middle of a severe test of the Constitution. We don't yet know the outcome of that test. Some are prepared to say "game over, man" and I'm not one of them. It's not a "protecting my mental health" thing. I just don't think we have the information to make that call yet.

[RunningMn9]

I just don't think we have the information to make that call yet.

I would respectfully update that “we” to “I”. You might not feel like you have enough information, and that’s perfectly fine.

I think I have enough information.

I think the disconnect is what “end of the American Empire” means to you and what it means to us. The American Empire has only existed since the end of WW2. We aren’t talking about the end of the American experiment. We are talking about the end of America as the leader of the strongest and most consequential alliance in world history, which has allowed it to project its interests internationally.

That’s already happened. That’s not a “wow, that might happen”. That’s happened. Our ability to do that is gone, because it’s more important to these people that we prevent an “invasion” of people coming here to work like slaves in the agricultural sector.

[raydude]

I just don't think we have the information to make that call yet.

I would respectfully update that “we” to “I”. You might not feel like you have enough information, and that’s perfectly fine.

I think I have enough information.

I think the disconnect is what “end of the American Empire” means to you and what it means to us. The American Empire has only existed since the end of WW2. We aren’t talking about the end of the American experiment. We are talking about the end of America as the leader of the strongest and most consequential alliance in world history, which has allowed it to project its interests internationally.

That’s already happened. That’s not a “wow, that might happen”. That’s happened. Our ability to do that is gone, because it’s more important to these people that we prevent an “invasion” of people coming here to work like slaves in the agricultural sector.

I can get behind that. I don't think Ameria is the leader anymore in foreign counter-intelligence and intelligence gathering in general, for example. I fully expect that our allies have already started removing important intelligence sharing channels with an America that has gone completely off the rails with respect to safeguarding its secrets (ex. even the names of its agents are not safe) and appointing incompetents (and possible Russian plants) as heads of intelligence agencies.

And with the withdrawal of USAid America can no longer lead by example and no longer has the freedom to use "soft power" to enact foreign policy.

I'm holding judgement on America no longer being the leader in research although with the continuing assaults on research and science funding I may change my tune in about 6 months.

[YellowKing]

I would respectfully update that “we” to “I”.

To be fair, that's how I framed my original statement, and got jumped on for that stance as well. I'm using "we" in a rhetorical sense, not specifically calling people out.

At any rate, this is just becoming an argument on semantics which I'm not interested in. Proceed with the collective fatalism.

[raydude]

I am wondering if any lawyers or constitutional law folks can weigh in on the section 504 lawsuit. There is a great concern that the states in the lawsuit want the entirety of Section 504 declared unconstitutional, and the language of the lawsuit appears to verify it.

In the Demand for Relief section it asks to

Declare Section 504, 29 U.S.C. § 794, unconstitutional;

and I'm wondering what the implications are if the court rules in the plaintiffs' favor. In programming terms is it like a git repo where the current branch is declared unconstitutional and the code reverts back to an older branch? Or is the entire repo declared unconstitutional and Congress needs to build a new Section 504 repo?

[Unagi]

While I can't speak for my be-stressed friend, let me re-frame: what will you need to see that is going to convince you that we're in trouble?

That's probably where the disconnect is. I'm not denying that we're in trouble. I'm saying I'm not prepared to say that the trouble we're in *at this moment* equates to the "end of the American empire." That's a big leap.

We're in the middle of a severe test of the Constitution. We don't yet know the outcome of that test. Some are prepared to say "game over, man" and I'm not one of them. It's not a "protecting my mental health" thing. I just don't think we have the information to make that call yet.

Pollyanna gonna Pollyanna

[YellowKing]

I don't see "not jumping to the worst possible outcome" as a character flaw. Everyone I know who does that are anxiety-riddled miserable human beings. Personally I'm not interested in sitting in a discussion talking about how doomed we all are. For the sake of my kids, I have to resist where I can and figure out how to make the world a better place for them. That means accepting the reality of the situation and figuring out what to do about it. If that's being a "Pollyanna" then hand me a name tag so I can wear it proudly.

[Unagi]

That means accepting the reality of the situation and figuring out what to do about it. If that's being a "Pollyanna" then hand me a name tag so I can wear it proudly.

Pollyanna is just "a person who always takes the most optimistic outlook". If we were in the same room, I would make you the name-tag and hand it to you, without scorn or sneer.

There is no 'shame' in it, but I will push back a little on your 'tude' here. Many of us miserable human beings also feel like we are the ones accepting the reality here, so you may have to forgive the anxiety.


I once heard this fun definition of Optimist and Pessimist:

An optimist is a person who thinks this is the best of all worlds, a pessimist knows it.

But, in any case - peace.

[hepcat]

The White House
@WhiteHouse
"CONGESTION PRICING IS DEAD. Manhattan, and all of New York, is SAVED. LONG LIVE THE KING!"
–President Donald J. Trump

https://www.amny.com/news/governor-hoch ... hallenges/

Hochul, during a press conference at Grand Central Station Wednesday afternoon, took exception to Trump bragging about the move on Truth social, in which he claimed to have “saved New York” from congestion pricing, adding “LONG LIVE THE KING,” in an apparent reference to himself.

“I’m here to say, New York hasn’t labored under a king in over 250 years, and we sure as hell are not going to start now,” the governor said. “The streets of the city where battles were fought, we stood up to a king, and we won then. In case you don’t know New Yorkers, when we’re in a fight, we do not back down — not now, not ever.”

Hochul claims New York is “under siege” by Washington and that “it feels like the commuters of our city and our region are now the road killed on Donald Trump’s revenge tour against New York,” Hochul said.

The governor emphasized the urgency of the situation, indicating that state agencies were prepared for a fight with Trump’s government. Immediately after the Trump administration’s announced Wednesday, the MTA filed a lawsuit to stop the gambit to kill congestion pricing.

The very open attempt at a quid pro quo with Adams is just astounding to me. Trump's administration isn't even attempting to hide it.

[YellowKing]

We all have a choice in how we accept reality. We can fight, or we can give up. I sense very little fight and a whole lot of giving up. And we're only a month in.

If there's any attitude on my part, it's frustration with that.

[GreenGoo]

We all have a choice in how we accept reality. We can fight, or we can give up. I sense very little fight and a whole lot of giving up. And we're only a month in.

I sense a lot of panic, and some wondering why they are panicking. I don't sense much giving up or fighting.

[Holman]

I'm looking for an opportunity to fight.

I'm also desperate to see some fight from politicians who are in a position to do something.

[Skinypupy]

We all have a choice in how we accept reality. We can fight, or we can give up. I sense very little fight and a whole lot of giving up. And we're only a month in.

If there's any attitude on my part, it's frustration with that.

Part of this is because many of us are simply in survival mode at this point.

I'm now up to 85% of the federal business I've spent the past 20 years building having been systematically wiped out in just the past three weeks by a combination of DOGE, the DEI Executive Order, and the elimination of USAID. My job, my career, and my livelihood have basically evaporated overnight. And that's the effect on me personally, and not even considering the broader societal horrors that we're being bombarded with on a minute-by-minute basis.

When you're spending every day getting constantly kicked in the face, it can be difficult to find the will or even know where or how to start punching back. I'm just trying not to lose my fucking mind.

[Zarathud]

When it’s your face being eaten, you can’t be expected to react differently. Or be optimistic.

The Trump administration is generating many personal tragedies, with little thought or care for the consequences.

Federal estate tax repeal is suddenly on the table again. It was an unaffordable giveaway 10 years ago, so they increased the tax exemption to $10 million ($14 million when inflation adjusted) per spouse. No serious person believed repeal was likely because at $30 million, only very rich people pay the tax and they get an income tax benefit. But there are now no guardrails and the lunatics are in charge of policy, so who knows what will happen. Fortunately everyone knows their life expectancy is decreasing so my business now isn’t tax-driven, but it’s always a client motivator.

[Smoove_B]

There's also possibly an element of how much you can personally or professionally relate to what's happening. Not to sound like a dick, but I could almost imagine if I wasn't doing what I'm doing for a living or if I didn't have family members that are going to be directly impacted by what's happening, things might seem abstract at this point as honestly, nothing has really changed in a measurable way over the last month for me. My paycheck is still being deposited. Grocery and gas bills are the the same. Taxes are being paid; new TV shows are arriving each week. What's different?

Does anyone else visit a website for work-related info and see hate speech that was placed their by the Administration? Or have pages related to what you do just disappear? I don't personally know anyone in danger of being deported (that I'm aware of), but I'm guessing as the weeks progress the number of individuals and families being impacted by everything going on is going to increase. I have an extended contact living in OHIO that had an LGBTQ+ family member take their life back in December. While I'm not going to say it was a direct result of the election, it was absolutely part of what happened.

So for me, I can't get away from it - and really I'm mainly seeing it in my job, and that's only at the final fringes of the thread that starts at a federal level.