Octopus Overlords

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:33 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:24 pm Not getting a stimulus for not paying income tax is insulting and in my case totally BS. I still pay property tax each year for hundreds of dollars. Every time I buy anything at all in town...food, materials....anything I pay 10 cents on the dollar. But I am in a way deserving of that money because Ive been disabled from the time I was a kid. Im not receiving free money Im drawing off my dad's social security not mine not someone elses..my father's. He paid SS and income tax to have that.

I think they should simply make it simple and easy and give everyone that $1200 that have under $75,000 income no matter what.

I absolutely agree you deserve to be included in the help, but 1) that's not how Social Security works, and 2) those taxes you paid are state, not federal, so the Feds can't give them back to you in the form of this stimulus.

This 'stimulus plan' fails if all they are doing is pulling dollars from your own future to now. All while dumping buckets of open ended cash on their corporate sponsors. I can't see the Democrats in the House going for it. McConnell is as usual bullshitting and saying this will speed up the process but he wants the division. He has some plan and it stinks of GOP-style power politics versus doing the right thing.

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:04 am So this is the tax rebate idea. Think about what you got back in taxes this year and then subtract this payment from it... that is next year's return. If they give me this, i'm not spending it until next year as part of my normal plan.

Yeah this is why I am hoping there is some how an option to choose tax cut vs direct payment bc this would be our situation as well.
But if the best, fastest, includes the most ppl way to help is to send payments right noW to everyone, then yeah let's do it. Git er dun!

I agree I don't think it's enough if this goes more than a couple of weeks

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:19 pm This 'stimulus plan' fails if all they are doing is pulling dollars from your own future to now.

I agree, but only if people realize that is what is happening. They didn't last time. I'm not sure they will this time.

GungHo wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:23 pmI agree I don't think it's enough if this goes more than a couple of weeks

This is going to go on for more than a couple of weeks. Much longer. If we don't figure out how to make sure people have money to buy food and keep utilities on, things are going to get much, much worse.

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:39 pm

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:33 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:24 pm Not getting a stimulus for not paying income tax is insulting and in my case totally BS. I still pay property tax each year for hundreds of dollars. Every time I buy anything at all in town...food, materials....anything I pay 10 cents on the dollar. But I am in a way deserving of that money because Ive been disabled from the time I was a kid. Im not receiving free money Im drawing off my dad's social security not mine not someone elses..my father's. He paid SS and income tax to have that.

I think they should simply make it simple and easy and give everyone that $1200 that have under $75,000 income no matter what.

I absolutely agree you deserve to be included in the help, but 1) that's not how Social Security works, and 2) those taxes you paid are state, not federal, so the Feds can't give them back to you in the form of this stimulus.

My dad sure paid the feds. Its him I draw from.

You draw based on the fact that he paid. You don't draw the money he paid. It's not like there is an account earmarked for you. That's not how it works. Today's workers are paying for those on SS.

But let's say you understand that, how does that entitle you to an advancement on next year's tax return? Do you plan to get back $1200 in taxes? If not, you'd actually end up owing it unless they exempt people from paying it back under a certain threshold. Because that is what is being proposed.

Got notice today that two parents at my kids' school have coronavirus.

He can't even take life lines at this point. The worst President in history.

https://twitter.com/lib_crusher/status/ ... 3637821445

Someone has to get him to stop marching up there every day. I can tell when his conference is held because the market instantly drops.

Octavious wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:35 pm Someone has to get him to stop marching up there every day. I can tell when his conference is held because the market instantly drops.

Does it? In that case, "March away Merrell, March away!". Keep doing it till November!

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:26 pm He can't even take life lines at this point. The worst President in history.

It really was a softball question, but it also included stark bad news about the seriousness of the situation. That's what set him off.

And that's the tell. Trump doesn't hate the virus because it's hurting Americans. He hates it because it's hurting his re-election chances.

Watching the parade of MAGA's cheering on his response because of "FAKE NEWS!" (or something) is depressing.

Octavious wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:35 pm Someone has to get him to stop marching up there every day. I can tell when his conference is held because the market instantly drops.

He can't stop now that he's destroying *Obama's* stock-market gains.

I wish one of those reporters would snap back at him that he should really get counseling or something. Ya guess they value their jobs. But Id love to tell him off.

Also about the stimulus...so this one isn't like the 2008 and 2009 ones then?

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:58 pm I wish one of those reporters would snap back at him that he should really get counseling or something. Ya guess they value their jobs. But Id love to tell him off.

I've heard their mics get cut.

Holman wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:53 pm

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:26 pm He can't even take life lines at this point. The worst President in history.

It really was a softball question, but it also included stark bad news about the seriousness of the situation. That's what set him off.

And that's the tell. Trump doesn't hate the virus because it's hurting Americans. He hates it because it's hurting his re-election chances.

I just unfollowed a Facebook friend who attacked the reporter, said he should be fired, and then defended Trump's response.

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:29 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:39 pm

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:33 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:24 pm Not getting a stimulus for not paying income tax is insulting and in my case totally BS. I still pay property tax each year for hundreds of dollars. Every time I buy anything at all in town...food, materials....anything I pay 10 cents on the dollar. But I am in a way deserving of that money because Ive been disabled from the time I was a kid. Im not receiving free money Im drawing off my dad's social security not mine not someone elses..my father's. He paid SS and income tax to have that.

I think they should simply make it simple and easy and give everyone that $1200 that have under $75,000 income no matter what.

I absolutely agree you deserve to be included in the help, but 1) that's not how Social Security works, and 2) those taxes you paid are state, not federal, so the Feds can't give them back to you in the form of this stimulus.

My dad sure paid the feds. Its him I draw from.

You draw based on the fact that he paid. You don't draw the money he paid. It's not like there is an account earmarked for you. That's not how it works. Today's workers are paying for those on SS.

But let's say you understand that, how does that entitle you to an advancement on next year's tax return? Do you plan to get back $1200 in taxes? If not, you'd actually end up owing it unless they exempt people from paying it back under a certain threshold. Because that is what is being proposed.

I have complete sympathy for Daehawk (I have relatives on Soc Sec and/or disability who could use that money as well), but isn't the primary purpose to help people who lost their income, not people who just don't make enough to begin with?

Looking at it from that perspective, it's perfectly understandable why Daehawk wouldn't get money.

The fact that it's a cash advance would only make it worse on Daehawk and others - if you get $1200 and have to pay it back in a tax return next year - would you really be better off? If you spend it, how will you pay it back next year?

I suppose you could just put it in a savings account or CD or something and get whatever precious little money you'll get until you give it back next year, but with rates as low as they are now, can't see getting enough money there to make it worth the effort.

As somebody on disability, that isn't an unjustified position. Our income isn't changing. We get as much six weeks into this as we got six weeks before. The only real counterpoint is that there are new expenses. It's harder to shop, affordable items aren't available, and laying in an emergency supply is a big initial outlay of cash when we likely have no savings.

GungHo wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:23 pm

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:04 am So this is the tax rebate idea. Think about what you got back in taxes this year and then subtract this payment from it... that is next year's return. If they give me this, i'm not spending it until next year as part of my normal plan.

Yeah this is why I am hoping there is some how an option to choose tax cut vs direct payment bc this would be our situation as well.
But if the best, fastest, includes the most ppl way to help is to send payments right noW to everyone, then yeah let's do it. Git er dun!

I agree I don't think it's enough if this goes more than a couple of weeks

And if it is only available as a tax rebate can I refuse it? I'm just gonna buy tequila or a boat or something with it, I don't need to muddy up next year's taxes just for that.

Without Urgent Action, Coronavirus Could Overwhelm U.S., Estimates Say

The article has a bunch of models for how the US, and each state, will do, depending on what level of measures we take.

I'm puzzled why it shows a significant red square in South Dakota (in the best case scenario), and why that state is expected to be one of the early states to peak. Do the Presidents at Mount Rushmore have it and are spewing it at all the residents or something?

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:58 pm Also about the stimulus...so this one isn't like the 2008 and 2009 ones then?

Nothing has been passed yet.

NWT requires account.

My suggestion is for the govt just to print money and pass out a ton of it out - the more the better. Now normally, I'm pretty much a deficit hawk, but this is different. Usually printing money just leads to inflation because you have more dollars pursuing the same amount of production/goods. But in this case there's no risk of inflation because a lot of people don't/won't have money. Anything the govt hands out is going to be used to replace income/money that isn't there. The system is broken because a lot of people aren't working. What we need to do is sustain people until things get back up running again. Make sure they can pay their mortgages/rent, make their car payments, feed their families, have health care, etc. It's not going to go to chasing new cars, Xboxes, iPhones, and other optional consumer goods. Then as people get back to work, you can take your foot off the pedal. But right now, there's no worry about causing inflation, so open the spigot and pour the money out. Holding back will be a worse mistake than doing too much.

I 100% agree. The problem is it runs counter to GOP economic dogma and the tea party mentality. The UK's plan is amazing in comparison because they keep the companies up and running ready to leap back into business as soon as the crisis passes. We'll have a smoking crater of an economy. The whole thing is madness. The GOP has opposed every measure that could have helped us in this crisis and still won't change. It's maddening.

Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:17 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:58 pm Also about the stimulus...so this one isn't like the 2008 and 2009 ones then?

Nothing has been passed yet.

Are we taking bets that nothing will happen, and no money will ever go out from this?

ManAboutNothing wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:19 pm

Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:17 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:58 pm Also about the stimulus...so this one isn't like the 2008 and 2009 ones then?

Nothing has been passed yet.

Are we taking bets that nothing will happen, and no money will ever go out from this?

Something will pass. The estimates of the economic contraction are between 15-30% annualized for the quarter. Between 3-6 TRILLION dollars over the next 3 months. We are facing economic collapse. They have to do something.

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:27 pmThey have to do something.

We're still talking about the GOP right? Won't surprise me if they all just disappear one random day next week and are hiding in doomsday bunkers.

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:33 pm

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:27 pmThey have to do something.

We're still talking about the GOP right? Won't surprise me if they all just disappear one random day next week and are hiding in doomsday bunkers.

Perhaps but even they have masters who are telling them to help now. McConnell still was playing games but I have to figure eventually someone will yank even his chain.

Z-Corn wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:55 pm

GungHo wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:23 pm

stessier wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:04 am So this is the tax rebate idea. Think about what you got back in taxes this year and then subtract this payment from it... that is next year's return. If they give me this, i'm not spending it until next year as part of my normal plan.

Yeah this is why I am hoping there is some how an option to choose tax cut vs direct payment bc this would be our situation as well.
But if the best, fastest, includes the most ppl way to help is to send payments right noW to everyone, then yeah let's do it. Git er dun!

I agree I don't think it's enough if this goes more than a couple of weeks

And if it is only available as a tax rebate can I refuse it? I'm just gonna buy tequila or a boat or something with it, I don't need to muddy up next year's taxes just for that.

Tequila to drink ON the boat.

Except I could never afford a boat. Maybe a canoe?

I may have missed it but did the Dems sit down with GOP senators today to work out any kind of compromised deal? Or was this pure politics by the GOP so they could blast the Dems when they inevitably want to modify the proposal?

GungHo wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:42 pmI may have missed it but did the Dems sit down with GOP senators today to work out any kind of compromised deal? Or was this pure politics by the GOP so they could blast the Dems when they inevitably want to modify the proposal?

Not well reported to be honest. McConnell did however craft their entire plan without a single Democrat. After he dragged out the 1st wave relief to go play home politics. So as usual my worst person on earth award (ok ok the country) goes to McConnell with Trump nipping at his heels. Mostly because Trump is broken and McConnell is just fucking evil.

ManAboutNothing wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:19 pm

Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:17 pm

Daehawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:58 pm Also about the stimulus...so this one isn't like the 2008 and 2009 ones then?

Nothing has been passed yet.

Are we taking bets that nothing will happen, and no money will ever go out from this?

I didn't mean to imply that. My main concern is that the GOP will succeed in passing supply-side remedies for a demand-side crisis. If half or more of the bailout goes to banks and corporations, there had better be some thick strings attached.

I do suspect that if we can keep the economy on life support for 3-4 months, all the stimulus in the pipeline will bring it roaring back with a boom. I know that once restaurants finally start reopening, you won't be able to get a table anywhere for months.

Damn, I love Katie Porter.

https://twitter.com/katieporteroc/statu ... 3989688327

On July 15, 2019, your board of directors authorized $3B in buybacks. Please sit down.

(in response to "BREAKING: United Airlines CEO threatens big job cuts if company doesn't receive "sufficient government support by the end of March")

This held up well.

https://twitter.com/ABCNewsLive/status/ ... 6379840513

U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Secretary Alex Azar joins @ABCNewsLive to discuss the novel coronavirus outbreak.

“There is no testing kit shortage, nor has there ever been," @SecAzar says.

End of the week final day DOW

19,173.98 −913.21 (4.55%)



This may sound mean and dumb..Im good at both without meaning to be.......and I know its horrible when a company closes thats been around forever and all the layoffs. But all the propping up this country does and bailouts for failing companies..Amtrak, cars, planes...whatever.....Wouldn't the positive to come from it be a dead old dinosaur that cant make it closes and new companies with new ideas and new ways and new jobs opens in their place?

Like if Amtrak died wouldn't someone else spring up to take their place? Maybe do it better even..or worse then on to the next? If GM had not gotten help we would lose a car brand. Happens all the time. Then someone else opens and makes better cooler cheaper cars and hires even more people and gets rid of money hungry CEOs?..Who knows. This country doesn't seem to allow change.

Amtrak carried 31.7M riders in 2017. That's 86,000+ people per day over 300+routes. If they stopped operations tomorrow, how many people wouldn't be able to make it to work?

Amtrak is subsidized by the government, and has been since its creation. Theoretically because the cost of the subsidies outweighs the economic advantages that it engenders.

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:53 pm As somebody on disability, that isn't an unjustified position. Our income isn't changing. We get as much six weeks into this as we got six weeks before. The only real counterpoint is that there are new expenses. It's harder to shop, affordable items aren't available, and laying in an emergency supply is a big initial outlay of cash when we likely have no savings.

That's a fair counterpoint. I know I've spent nearly as much as I would in a month in the last week and a 1/2 or so. Much harder when you paying full price for things you wouldn't normally buy unless they were on sale (and some only if it was a REALLY GOOD sale). The only salve for that for me is that I won't have to buy much in the way of groceries for a while. Helps that I am mandatory work from home now - removes 240 miles of driving (at around 30 mpg ~8 gallons) in gas expenses every week. Also won't be going out to eat much (though I'm sure we'll break down and do some).

Wife doesn't work but is not driving out at all now either. So I may have to drive both vehicles for 20-30 miles every week just to get them out and driven, not sitting around forever, getting bad.

Zenn7 wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:02 am So I may have to drive both vehicles for 20-30 miles every week just to get them out and driven, not sitting around forever, getting bad.

though, honestly, do they need to be driven _every single_ week?

hitbyambulance wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:10 am

Zenn7 wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:02 am So I may have to drive both vehicles for 20-30 miles every week just to get them out and driven, not sitting around forever, getting bad.

though, honestly, do they need to be driven _every single_ week?

Probably not. Was thinking every other week would likely suffice.
Though to be fair, all I know is you shouldn't leave them sit for an extended period of time without driving them. No clue what is OK vs too long.

I'm the anti-male guy - don't know much about cars, don't care about them, don't want a truck or sporty car, don't care about sports, don't drink booze (don't care for the taste of most every drink I've ever tried, I've tried several).
I'm into females at least (well, being married, I'm into 1 female - for my physical health and well-being, I limited myself to the 1 female lest she disable or remove some of my anatomical interest in females ).

Daehawk wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:39 am
Like if Amtrak died wouldn't someone else spring up to take their place? Maybe do it better even..or worse then on to the next?

I'm guessing starting up a national railway is beyond the capacity of most startups. And do you want to risk worse if lives are at stake?

I dont get why Amtrak doesn't make money. Its the same with the USPS. They charge. they have tons of customers. So wheres the money going? Pockets Im assuming.

Isn't that how capitalism works?