The Apprentice Season 2 - The Second Presidency of Donald Trump

[Holman]

Trump/Musk have only pushed the first few dominoes. The cascading effects down the line will be huge.

Even the single fact of research funding being cut could lead to the collapse of the American university system, which is something MAGA would like to see anyway. Since my job is funded by a STEM-focused university already (pre-Trump 2.0) facing a major financial crisis, I could easily see my job disappearing this year.

I've already starting sending out job applications, just in case, but they are to university posts as well.

[YellowKing]

Sure, everyone is fighting their own battles. But the original discussion was "American empire" which I looked at as more big picture, long term. My intent is certainly not to ask anyone to be unrealistically optimistic in the face of personal tragedy.

[RunningMn9]

I would respectfully update that “we” to “I”.

To be fair, that's how I framed my original statement, and got jumped on for that stance as well. I'm using "we" in a rhetorical sense, not specifically calling people out.

At any rate, this is just becoming an argument on semantics which I'm not interested in. Proceed with the collective fatalism.

You expressed something that I thought was worth fleshing out. I honestly have no idea why you are reacting as if you are being assaulted, but I will stop responding (starting NOW).

[Skinypupy]

Sure, everyone is fighting their own battles. But the original discussion was "American empire" which I looked at as more big picture, long term. My intent is certainly not to ask anyone to be unrealistically optimistic in the face of personal tragedy.

I think part of the frustration here (not with you, just in general) is that we keep hearing over and over to "FIGHT!" That we can't just roll over and take this and that we have to "RESIST".

Um...how?

For those of us in red states, contacting our reps does absolutely nothing. If I'm not fully on board the MAGA train, Mike Lee couldn't not possibly give less of a shit about me. Protest? I guess that's doable, although they're just going to ignore that like they do the countless e-mails and phone calls. I already vote, so...vote harder? I'll bend any willing ear to try and spread awareness of what's happening, but everyone I know either already agrees or is so tuned out that they don't care.

I honestly don't have a clue what I could or even should be doing.

[geezer]

Sure, everyone is fighting their own battles. But the original discussion was "American empire" which I looked at as more big picture, long term. My intent is certainly not to ask anyone to be unrealistically optimistic in the face of personal tragedy.

I think part of the frustration here (not with you, just in general) is that we keep hearing over and over to "FIGHT!" That we can't just roll over and take this and that we have to "RESIST".

Um...how?

For those of us in red states, contacting our reps does absolutely nothing. If I'm not fully on board the MAGA train, Mike Lee couldn't not possibly give less of a shit about me. Protest? I guess that's doable, although they're just going to ignore that like they do the countless e-mails and phone calls. I already vote, so...vote harder? I'll bend any willing ear to try and spread awareness of what's happening, but everyone I know either already agrees or is so tuned out that they don't care.

I honestly don't have a clue what I could or even should be doing.

Pressure, any and every way you can, even if it's just once a month on the phone. As a fellow red-stater (TX) my calls are just as useless every day. Until, maybe, one day the call to Cornyn is the 500th or 100th or 10,000th that finally makes a difference. Maybe.

"When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before."

[Smoove_B]

I honestly don't have a clue what I could or even should be doing.

I'm a blue dot in a red county in a purple state and I have no idea either. I've been receiving all kinds of notifications about protests and marches (which is fine), but in terms of a practical, actionable thing right now? No idea. I personally don't place value in calling my Blue state representatives - especially those that voted to confirm so many of the cabinet members over the last month, literally the one single thing they could have voted "no" on.

And then to hear members of Congress talk or give sound bites like they're not actually part of the problem - like they're just observing it all like we are from the outside.

Really, the only thing they could do is impeach Trump and we know that's not happening. Maybe when something finally ends up before the Supreme Court and they either rule in his favor -or- he just flat out ignores it, maybe that'll be enough for Congress to act...though I doubt that too.

This is is why I spiral out into there being bigger problems. Our system cannot handle what's happening. Or, the parts that can are unwilling. And so core agencies are being dismantled in a way that cannot be fixed quickly. It's absolutely rippling out in ways we don't yet realize.

And it's going to get worse.

[Unagi]

We all have a choice in how we accept reality. We can fight, or we can give up. I sense very little fight and a whole lot of giving up. And we're only a month in.

I sense a lot of panic, and some wondering why they are panicking. I don't sense much giving up or fighting.

This

[YellowKing]

I honestly have no idea why you are reacting as if you are being assaulted, but I will stop responding (starting NOW).

I think we're all just talking past each other, it's not a big deal. Text is a hard medium to get points across sometimes, and it's easy to infer intent where there was none. I'm not upset with anyone, we're all on the same team and I think we all want out of this nightmare.

For instance, I've never wondered why people are panicking. That's an inference of intent that was never there. And likewise I've inferred some feelings of accusation/persecution that weren't there.

[WYBaugh]

I was going to echo the same question. Reading here and other places that people get frustrated at others that they're not fighting.

What should we, as the American populace, do to combat this? We voted. There are protests but I don't even know if they register to the country as a whole since the news agencies determine what they want to cover and how.

We have elected officials that should be fighting or at least doing their job to protect the constitution but they are too concerned about losing their job. I hear congressmen saying the right things but absolutely no action is being taken. Federal Judges block things but then are threatened with impeachment.

Others that should be fighting just resign rather than deal with the issues.

I hear from people outside of the country that "American's have more guns than people". So people are expecting us to become Maquis?

To me, Trump is just chomping at the bit to bring in the military for protests that turn from anything other than peaceful and MAGA are wanting to live their patriot wet dream and come out in militias after the wokies.

Until something happens that brings the country back from this division, I don't see how anything can be done to stop this short of a military coup.

If congress, the house, supreme court et al are not stopping this from occurring, then I don't feel any phone calls, peaceful protests or speeches in the senate will do a damn thing.

[$iljanus]

I think the first way to resist is not to lose hope. It certainly sounds simplistic but it’s the loss of hope that allows evil to win because at that point you’ve sunk into a numb acceptance of the status quo. Clinging to hope is one of the bravest things a person can do in the face of daunting odds.

From there, be open to opportunities. It won’t always be apparent and it may not be grandiose. We’re not politicians or captains of industry. But we can have conversations with each other and even with those who don’t agree. There was a time when being quiet to not stir things up was the way people dealt with things. “I don’t want to be divisive…Their mind is set…etc” I say if people have the right to say all sorts of nonsense remember that you too have the right to speak! The trick is to be passionate as needed but calm about it as well. You know you’ll be called all sorts of names and insults but let it slide off your back. And sometimes there’s that opening where you may be able to engage in actual conversation.

As you cling to hope be open to service. There’s going to be a lot of people in need and perhaps it’s time to step outside your comfort zone and engage with the community. Get out of the silo.

As you fan the flame of hope, protest. Granted we are speaking truth to a power that doesn’t care but there is something to be said about gathering with like minded people who won’t let democracy go down with a whimper.

But in the end…do not lose hope. Because once you do that, a little bit of you has died off. And that only helps the cruel who wish to rule us. Not govern, rule.

Jyn Erso “ "We have hope. Rebellions are built on hope!" Yeah it’s a fictional character, but she has a point.

[YellowKing]

From there, be open to opportunities. It won’t always be apparent and it may not be grandiose. We’re not politicians or captains of industry. But we can have conversations with each other and even with those who don’t agree.

This is where my mindset is right now. I have some close friends with really high anxiety/depression, and this election has pushed them to the breaking point. To the point it's physically affecting their health. I've been trying to be the person that calms them down and lets them know that we'll get through this.

[Blackhawk]

Here's the thing - everyone is different.

Everyone is affected differently. Some are going to benefit from this. Some are going to be unaffected. Some are going to have things harder. Some are going to have their lives destroyed. Some may pay a little more at the supermarket and gas pumps. Some may lose jobs. Some may lose family. Some may lose their life's work. Some are experiencing stress, some exhaustion, some fear, some panic. Some have multiple options to fall back on, so they're not that worried.

We all have different supports. Some have networks of friends on the same page as them to support each other. Some just have a spouse. Some have large, extended families. Others have nobody, and have to cope alone.

We all have different experiences, and we all have different psyches. We all have different needs.

Nobody should get to say that one person reacting a certain way is wrong. We're all guessing, we're all trying to get through the next few years, and none of us know for sure how this story is going to turn out. And given that OO (and all of us) represent a major piece of some peoples' support networks, be compassionate and patient as we all work out how we feel and what to do about it.

[RunningMn9]

I think we're all just talking past each other, it's not a big deal. Text is a hard medium to get points across sometimes, and it's easy to infer intent where there was none. I'm not upset with anyone, we're all on the same team and I think we all want out of this nightmare.

I would very much like to be cool with everyone here. I am at the limit of what I have the capacity to deal with these days.

I guess all I was hoping to convey was that when I think of the American Empire - I think about our ability to stand out in front of the world and lead. I think about our ability to help when we can and lead by example. I think about when things need to get unpleasant, we are able to ask our allies for assistance, and we know they will heed the call.

We are now lead by Denethor. And I don’t know that there is a Theoden out there that will overlook the fact that we’ve abandoned him in his time of need.

And to me - if there is any hesitation to answer the call - that to me tells me that the American Empire has come to an end.

[Blackhawk]

Denethor was a good man who was manipulated into madness. That's not Trump. Sauron was egotistical and cruel by nature. We're being led by Sauron. Musk is his Witch King, and his cabinet are the rest of the Nine.

Putin has the One Ring.

[GreenGoo]

I stand by my comments about America in free fall. You don't have to feel that way, and that's fine. We've been told we are over reacting since day one in 2016. If you feel we aren't at the point of no return, that's fine too. I disagree.

Gutting a single governmental department cascades in ways that the layperson does not understand, mostly because all the other departments work hard to reduce the impact to the public. Gutting all of them at once?

You can't just post on monster.com for a subject matter expert on governmental institutional knowledge. Once those guys are gone, they are gone. You'd have to offer them 5x their previous salary before they'll risk their livelihoods on the trustworthiness of the American government again. And that 5x is going to grow to 10x, 20x as time goes on.

Government has jobs that private industry has never even heard of before. Many of those jobs are understood by 3 people and new hires are trained by those 3 guys. Those 3 guys are gone now. The new guy doesn't even know that the work those 3 did exists, let alone how to do it.

Your government is fucked. If you don't think that's true, or if you don't think this is catastrophic, ok. You're more than welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but that's the thing about opinions.

Good luck!

[WYBaugh]

Less than half the country thinks it's fucked.

[RunningMn9]

Denethor was a good man who was manipulated into madness. That's not Trump. Sauron was egotistical and cruel by nature. We're being led by Sauron. Musk is his Witch King, and his cabinet are the rest of the Nine.

Putin has the One Ring.

The analogy wasn’t perfect, I was just getting to the point that we have forsaken our allies. We should be aware that they have no reason to heed our call when it comes.

[RunningMn9]

Less than half the country thinks it's fucked.

So? Those are the people that are doing the fucking. And they aren’t into accepting the consequences of their actions.

[$iljanus]

From there, be open to opportunities. It won’t always be apparent and it may not be grandiose. We’re not politicians or captains of industry. But we can have conversations with each other and even with those who don’t agree.

This is where my mindset is right now. I have some close friends with really high anxiety/depression, and this election has pushed them to the breaking point. To the point it's physically affecting their health. I've been trying to be the person that calms them down and lets them know that we'll get through this.

That's no small thing that you're doing. I suspect there's a lot of folks who are being pushed to their breaking point.

[Blackhawk]

Denethor was a good man who was manipulated into madness. That's not Trump. Sauron was egotistical and cruel by nature. We're being led by Sauron. Musk is his Witch King, and his cabinet are the rest of the Nine.

Putin has the One Ring.

The analogy wasn’t perfect, I was just getting to the point that we have forsaken our allies. We should be aware that they have no reason to heed our call when it comes.

I know, but we started as a forum of nerds, and you went and made an inaccurate nerd analogy. Some things cannot be allowed to stand!

[YellowKing]

Your government is fucked. If you don't think that's true, or if you don't think this is catastrophic, ok.

I don't think anyone on this forum is claiming that.

[GreenGoo]

Your government is fucked. If you don't think that's true, or if you don't think this is catastrophic, ok.

I don't think anyone on this forum is claiming that.

I'm definitely claiming your government is fucked.

[GreenGoo]

Less than half the country thinks it's fucked.

So? Those are the people that are doing the fucking. And they aren’t into accepting the consequences of their actions.

Or understanding them. This is directed at the target of Runningmn9's people, just to be clear.

[YellowKing]

No I mean I don't think anyone is claiming that it's not fucked, or that it's not a catastrophe. It certainly is.

I think the debate is whether we will survive it and somehow come out on the other side as some semblance of the superpower we were. Some here say no. I say the jury's still out. Somehow that got translated into hopeless optimism. <shrug>

[Blackhawk]

No I mean I don't think anyone is claiming that it's not fucked, or that it's not a catastrophe. It certainly is.

I think the debate is whether we will survive it and somehow come out on the other side as some semblance of the superpower we were. Some here say no. I say the jury's still out. Somehow that got translated into hopeless optimism. <shrug>

When we come out the other side, we'll have to rebuild from scratch - not recover. The pieces that comprised what we were just months ago have been scattered and lost. We'll either have a reboot, or we'll have some form of a fascist state for generations. I don't think there's any in-between.

But we're not going to retain any semblance of the superpower we were. That, sadly, is already in ashes. In order to be that superpower, we'd need economic clout (which we're losing as our trading partners begin to route around us), we'd need some sort of moral or ethical high ground (which we've lost), we'd need to remain unique as defenders against threats, which we're in the process of losing (Europe has realized that they can't rely on us, so they're upping their own militaries and/or nuclear arsenals), we'd need the world's trust that we'd handle things appropriately (we started losing that in Iraq), and we'd need to have solid alliances and strong diplomatic ties, which we've destroyed.

We no longer have the tools that made us the kind of superpower that we were. There's no way we can return to that in our lifetimes. At best, it'll take generations to rebuild trust and respect, and that's only if we actually change direction and start the process - without electing another Trump in four, eight, or twenty years.

[YellowKing]

I'm not arguing for or against it. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I'm in the "I'm not an expert, so I'm not making absolute statements" camp.

[GreenGoo]

I'm not arguing for or against it. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I'm in the "I'm not an expert, so I'm not making absolute statements" camp.

That's totally fine. There are lots in that camp with you. Not many here though, or if they are, they haven't been commenting.

For the record, every time my thoughts are taken over by doom and gloom, I definitely review recent history, which I consider being over my life time and maybe 10-20 years prior. So I don't look too far back. I am not comforted by the challenges that the last few generations have faced and overcome, as they relate to current day. I try to maintain perspective. It's difficult.

I suppose if literally everything this administration is doing stopped tomorrow, it would be possible to recover and repair, even though some of it, like relationships with allies, would still take years. But it's not going to stop. If anything it's going to get worse during the next 4 years. This is only the beginning. THAT'S what I base my doom predictions on. Extrapolation, based on things that are actually happening, right now.

[Kurth]

Denethor was a good man who was manipulated into madness. That's not Trump. Sauron was egotistical and cruel by nature. We're being led by Sauron. Musk is his Witch King, and his cabinet are the rest of the Nine.

Putin has the One Ring.

The analogy wasn’t perfect, I was just getting to the point that we have forsaken our allies. We should be aware that they have no reason to heed our call when it comes.

I know, but we started as a forum of nerds, and you went and made an inaccurate nerd analogy. Some things cannot be allowed to stand!

Wait. This suggests to me that we’re no longer a forum of nerds. Am I in the right place???

[RunningMn9]

I know, but we started as a forum of nerds, and you went and made an inaccurate nerd analogy. Some things cannot be allowed to stand!

I can’t argue with that, even in these (very) trying times.

[Unagi]

I think the debate is whether we will survive it and somehow come out on the other side as some semblance of the superpower we were. Some here say no. I say the jury's still out. Somehow that got translated into hopeless optimism. <shrug>

"Somehow that got translated into hopeless optimism. <shrug>" is not accurate if you are speaking to my pollyanna description.

I would say you have hopeful optimism, ever hopeful.

You are the one who turned it all into a binary "jumping to the worst possible outcome" vs "not jumping to the worst possible outcome" - when all I tried to point out is that you are ever-hopeful, and here is where you will need to excuse me - just because it's hard (for me) to actually grow my own hope from someone else's optimism, and even more so if I think that person may never level with me, and will always be optimistic. (Don't get me wrong here, my mother is this way and I love her for it - I value it)

That's all. I'm not even saying -that is you-, I'm just explaining my own reaction. It's not like I'm not also 'ever hopeful', I mean, I truly think we all really really need to be, but I am better buttressed by my fellow anxiety-riddled miserable human being who suggests that we both need to hold out hope, than I am that anchor of hope who will always say it.


But, to echo what you said - we are all on the same team here. I'm not trying to change you or critique your approach to life. As Billy Joel once said, I love you just the way you are.

[raydude]

Here's a question:

I wonder if the distrust from other countries towards our government will expand to distrust against large US companies? I would fully expect that given Musk's craziness that other countries would be incredibly crazy to trust he'll be hands-off Starlink, for example. As in "if I pay for your Starlink capability, I fully expect you won't turn it off when the country needs it most". Or would other countries be like "nah, you're a loose cannon. I'm gonna pass and wait for something else."

To take it further, I wonder if that might even extend to dependencies on our exports? Especially things that Trump could just shut off as part of his mobster style of diplomacy? Things like arms exports for example. Or even grain exports (as in the case of grain that used to be sent via USAid)?

I guess I'm searching for long-term affects that actually affect the American billionaire class to the point where FO affects even them after FA with things like Project 2025?

[Unagi]

No I mean I don't think anyone is claiming that it's not fucked, or that it's not a catastrophe. It certainly is.

I think the debate is whether we will survive it ...

Not arguing with you, but you invite semantic debate with your choice of words, IMO.

To me, if something is indeed catastrophic - the implication is that it's a complete -bust-. If an aircraft experiences a catastrophic failure, the plane generally ceases to fly and is not recoverable.

So, I guess I would say that if you feel it's recoverable, don't agree that it is certainly a catastrophe.

[raydude]

No I mean I don't think anyone is claiming that it's not fucked, or that it's not a catastrophe. It certainly is.

I think the debate is whether we will survive it ...

Not arguing with you, but you invite semantic debate with your choice of words, IMO.

To me, if something is indeed catastrophic - the implication is that it's a complete -bust-. If an aircraft experiences a catastrophic failure, the plane generally ceases to fly and is not recoverable.

So, I guess I would say that if you feel it's recoverable, don't agree that it is certainly a catastrophe.

I mean, the "survive it" part is pretty vague so I don't feel there's a semantic debate there. As an example, the bombing of Japan was catastrophic. The Japanese survived it and went on to rebuild and become a 1st world country.

There is also no time limit on recovery. The fall of the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages were recoverable and led to the Renaissance for example. So the debate on how long it takes to recover and what we'd look like on the other side is a fair one to have without resorting to semantics. IMHO.

[Unagi]

Yeah, certainly there in lies the jist of it. If America becomes a world leader again do we think that is in:

2 years
6 years
12 years
40 years?
80 years?
over 100 years?

I'm not sure where we are at, but I think our current catastrophe puts us beyond 12 years to recover. How much more, not sure, but I'm guessing over 20, easily. Of course, the entire world order may change in such a way that "America being a World Leader" doesn't even have the meaning that we mean it today.

[Holman]

Yeah, certainly there in lies the jist of it. If America becomes a world leader again do we think that is in:

2 years
6 years
12 years
40 years?
80 years?
over 100 years?

I'm not sure where we are at, but I think our current catastrophe puts us beyond 12 years to recover. How much more, not sure, but I'm guessing over 20, easily. Of course, the entire world order may change in such a way that "America being a World Leader" doesn't even have the meaning that we mean it today.

World leadership seems out of reach within a single generation. At best, we'll claw back to "one nation among many" rather than "failed state."

Great job, MAGA!

[raydude]

Yeah, certainly there in lies the jist of it. If America becomes a world leader again do we think that is in:

2 years
6 years
12 years
40 years?
80 years?
over 100 years?

I'm not sure where we are at, but I think our current catastrophe puts us beyond 12 years to recover. How much more, not sure, but I'm guessing over 20, easily. Of course, the entire world order may change in such a way that "America being a World Leader" doesn't even have the meaning that we mean it today.

One thing the US has to its advantage is that we are separated from other countries by large oceans and have friendly neighbors to our north and south. So we can sort of recover in relative safety. Of course Trump is actively trying to destroy this so if he gets his wish and creates enemies of our neighbors that will put a crimp in efforts to recover.

[MCQueen2]

There's information available on how the Impoundment Control Act could impact a second Trump administration, which is worth a read, especially given the legal and budgetary implications

[Holman]

One thing the US has to its advantage is that we are separated from other countries by large oceans and have friendly neighbors to our north and south. So we can sort of recover in relative safety. Of course Trump is actively trying to destroy this so if he gets his wish and creates enemies of our neighbors that will put a crimp in efforts to recover.

We're unlikely to be physically invaded, but much of what we have relied on for US supremacy has been intangible: the strength of our economy, the cultural influence of our media, the leading-edge capability of our academic and research institutions, the innovation encouraged by our technological advances.

Most of all, we had the soft-power value of the narrative that all this supported: that the USA was the Good Guys, leading the way into a future of greater freedom and comfort that would eventually extend its benefits to everyone in the world. There's a reason the United Federation of Planets always seemed so American.

Almost all of that is gone now, or is on the way towards going. It's astonishing that it has happened so quickly.

[Rumpy]

Denethor was a good man who was manipulated into madness. That's not Trump. Sauron was egotistical and cruel by nature. We're being led by Sauron. Musk is his Witch King, and his cabinet are the rest of the Nine.

Putin has the One Ring.

The analogy wasn’t perfect, I was just getting to the point that we have forsaken our allies. We should be aware that they have no reason to heed our call when it comes.

For what it's worth, I think Canada would still end up helping out in the end, because it's in the very nature of what we are and what we have historically done.

In related news, there's a Canadian Professor that has been working on preserving climate-change data that's been scrubbed by the Trump administration.
https://www.villagereport.ca/village-pi ... g-10257019

[Smoove_B]

JFC



I'm betting this is a sideways attempt to invoke the Comstock Act for all things abortion. Maybe more.