Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:42 am**

That does look good. Maybe a great finale will let us forgive the first three seasons.

I'm just a few hours away from caught up on ST, so I reckon I'll cancel Paramount at least until all the new episodes of Picard are in the can.

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:00 am**

I love Amanda Plummer, so count me in. Few people do bizarre characters like she can.

I’m still a little annoyed that Elnor won’t be back though. I actually like that character. His innocent outlook on life and his devotion to Picard was endearing.

But overall, that looks like fun. Let’s hope they don’t cock this one up too.

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:30 pm**

Is that who I think it is?

Spoiler:

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:34 pm**

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:30 pm Is that who I think it is?

Spoiler:
Moriarty?

Uhhuh.

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:38 pm**

Picard was always an old man, but it's so strange to see these guys having aged so much. Though they all look great for their ages. Crusher/McFadden looks a bit... augmented, but she's still beautiful.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:04 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:42 am That does look good. Maybe a great finale will let us forgive the first three seasons.

I'm just a few hours away from caught up on ST, so I reckon I'll cancel Paramount at least until all the new episodes of Picard are in the can.

I dunno, that trailer is giving me a mediocre vibe. Worf suddenly being a pacifist is disconcerting. It's a bit of a sea change for the character - not that Worf was ever bloodthirsty exactly, but he was a proud warrior who embraced Klingon culture. That kind of character change can be earned, but almost by definition this is going to be something that happened offscreen in the intervening years, and probably explained with a half minute of dialogue.

Plus like why is Moriarty back exactly? Feels a bit like they're just going down the checklist of things that happened in TNG and making sure that every part appears in Picard in some form.

Plus these are the same writers who had Agnes eating car batteries in an early 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

This season almost has to be better than season 2, but if this season winds up being mediocre that'll be a big win.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:15 am**

Yeah I'm not likely to resubscribe to Paramount just for Picard. I'll wait until there's more Discovery, too, and maybe even Brave New Worlds (which is the best of the bunch). I think we're just 2-3 weeks away from Lower Decks wrapping up so that's when I'll go on hiatus.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:32 am**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:04 am
Plus these are the same writers who had Agnes eating car batteries in an early 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

Well...shit. That means halfway through the season, everyone is going to put on combat boots in order to signify they're edgy badasses.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:35 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:15 am Yeah I'm not likely to resubscribe to Paramount just for Picard. I'll wait until there's more Discovery, too, and maybe even Brave New Worlds (which is the best of the bunch). I think we're just 2-3 weeks away from Lower Decks wrapping up so that's when I'll go on hiatus.

I will subscribe for this season if and only if they add an MST3K track to it.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:01 am**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:04 am Plus these are the same writers who had Agnes eating car batteries in an early 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

While I'm not 100% clear on the details, I think it's important to note that Matalas, who only came on in season two, is only full showrunner as of this season. They've made a point of saying that while season one was Chabon's baby and season two was Goldsman's, season three will be Matalas's.

There are a lot of warning signs in the Wikipedia summaries as well, but a lot's said that also makes me think they're at least trying to go down a different path:

Matalas said the third season was "incredibly different" from the first two,[16] saying it would be less intimate and have some "game-changing Star Trek Universe ideas". He added that some elements from Star Trek: The Original Series and the films starring the Original Series cast would be used in the season to "tie some Star Trek together",[17] including the Spacedock and boatswain's whistle from those films,[18] and other references to their "more nautical, cat and mouse submarine-movie" ideas.[16] Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) was a "major touchstone" for the season, which features "mental games" between Picard and a new villain.[19]

Matalas hoped the season would be a satisfying conclusion for Picard's story.[16] In April 2022, when it was revealed that other Star Trek: The Next Generation cast members would be starring in the season, Matalas recalled watching that series as a child and said it was "most fitting that the story of Jean-Luc Picard ends honoring the beginning, with his dearest and most loyal friends from the USS Enterprise".[4] The series' producers felt the group's final appearance in the film Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) had not been a "proper send off" and wanted to use the final season of Picard to "send [them] off the right way",[20] similar to what the film Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) had done for the Original Series cast.[21] This was Matalas's core pitch to Stewart and the other returning actors, and he worked with each of them to develop their storylines for the season to avoid telling a story that they were not happy with.[18] Kurtzman said the season would take its time showing where each character is before bringing them all together,[19] and Matalas compared this aspect to Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015) revealing where the original Star Wars characters are after many years.[1] Matalas also compared the season to a serialized version of a theoretical The Next Generation season eight,[22] and said it was "passing the torch from one generation to the next" like when actors from The Original Series guest starred on The Next Generation.[18] He added that he liked endings that promised more story with the characters.[1]

So yeah, probably a clusterfuck. But an elegant clusterfuck for a more civilized age.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:46 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:04 am
I dunno, that trailer is giving me a mediocre vibe. Worf suddenly being a pacifist is disconcerting. It's a bit of a sea change for the character - not that Worf was ever bloodthirsty exactly, but he was a proud warrior who embraced Klingon culture.

Yeah, it felt odd hearing Worf say that. It's a bit of a 180 for the character. For him to have said that, I'd have to assume something happened to his character for him to adopt a different philosophy, but I don't trust the writers to be that in-depth or think much on the development of the characters. Particularly since, as it's been pointed out, they shot Season 2 and 3 back to back with the same set of writers. I don't really trust the writers to have a grasp on the characters that a deft hand needs for this kind of thing.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:49 pm**

I kind of feel the opposite about Worf. He was raised by humans, so his whole warrior obsession dialed to 11 always felt like an affectation he adopted at some point to deal with being different than the other kids or something. I have no issue with him finding peace and growing to appreciate the humanity of the people who took him in and loved him later in life.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:12 pm**

But can Worf still hit a curveball?

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:14 pm**

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:17 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:49 pm I kind of feel the opposite about Worf. He was raised by humans, so his whole warrior obsession dialed to 11 always felt like an affectation he adopted at some point to deal with being different than the other kids or something. I have no issue with him finding peace and growing to appreciate the humanity of the people who took him in and loved him later in life.

He was always by nature, a Klingon holding on to his culture though, and as he grew older, he tended to side more with his Klingon side. His son Alexander though, now that was someone that was torn right in the middle, and is someone who strikes me as wanting to be more of a pacifist. Worf had to work hard to bring out the Klingon in him.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:48 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:49 pm I kind of feel the opposite about Worf. He was raised by humans, so his whole warrior obsession dialed to 11 always felt like an affectation he adopted at some point to deal with being different than the other kids or something. I have no issue with him finding peace and growing to appreciate the humanity of the people who took him in and loved him later in life.

I mean, this *could* be handled well and in a very interesting way. But there's all sorts of Klingon culture and religion tied to battle which was very important to Worf. After all, he did a dangerous mission to help ensure that his beloved wife could get into Stovokor, for example. He wouldn't just toss that aside lightly. But then what does Stovokor mean to a Klingon pacifist? Is he just adopting an expansive version of what can be considered a "battle"?

Partly I just really, really doubt that anyone involved in this show is going to deal with that stuff in a smart and sophisticated way. On top of that the show is Picard, and they're bringing back the entire core TNG group at once, so there's just not going to be enough time to really deal with any of that stuff even if they did have a smart way of doing it. If I had to guess, someone was just like "hey, wouldn't it be neat to riff about Worf suddenly being a pacifist?" and it's not going to be much more fleshed out than that.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:13 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:48 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:49 pm I kind of feel the opposite about Worf. He was raised by humans, so his whole warrior obsession dialed to 11 always felt like an affectation he adopted at some point to deal with being different than the other kids or something. I have no issue with him finding peace and growing to appreciate the humanity of the people who took him in and loved him later in life.

Partly I just really, really doubt that anyone involved in this show is going to deal with that stuff in a smart and sophisticated way. On top of that the show is Picard, and they're bringing back the entire core TNG group at once, so there's just not going to be enough time to really deal with any of that stuff even if they did have a smart way of doing it. If I had to guess, someone was just like "hey, wouldn't it be neat to riff about Worf suddenly being a pacifist?" and it's not going to be much more fleshed out than that.

Yep, that's my chief worry. Color me cynical, but the last two seasons didn't give me great feelings of confidence. I wouldn't be surprised if it were simply a riff rather than anything handled with depth. I don't expect these characters to be handled with grace based on previous expectations.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:18 pm**

I was lukewarmly positive on the first season of Picard, until I rewatched it in a binge and was impressed with how well it all held together and carried through thematically.

I hated the second season of Picard. It totally went off the rails. As did the fourth season of Discovery. Before Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks Season 3, this was a pretty bad year for Trek.

I'm hopeful for Season 3 of Picard, given the new show runner.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:20 pm**

Also, regarding Word, I always thought of him having a "zeal of the convert" thing going on with Klingon culture. Finding a new way to approach a culture grounded in honor without the bloodthirsty seems reasonable to me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:36 pm**

I thought the fourth season of Discovery was true TNG era Star Trek in many ways. It had the sense of wonder from exploration, the sense of selflessness that comes from being part of something bigger than one person, it adhered to the morality of TNG, and it had a resolution to the main story arc that would have made TNG proud (even with some goofy science stuff that felt a bit forced...which, let's face it, has always been a part of Star Trek). It also included (in an admittedly rushed manner) the introduction of a unique new individual in the form of Zora. As well as still taking time to contemplate the effects of grief at a planetary level.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 4:45 pm**

Zora is a ripoff of Moya from Farscape. Or an homage if you're feeling charitable. First contact with the mystery race was an awful lot like Arrival.

S4 of Discovery honored the spirit of Roddenberry to the point of parody. None of the "bad guys" were really bad; they were just misunderstood. Conflict arose only when characters had different opinions of what was gooder. Nobody wanted to hurt anybody else. While the story was entertaining, and I appreciate their bucking the dystopia zeitgeist underlying most contemporary sf, the morality crossed into eyeroll territory at times.

I'm still looking forward to S5 though.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 4:53 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 4:45 pm Zora is a ripoff of Moya from Farscape. Or an homage if you're feeling charitable. First contact with the mystery race was an awful lot like Arrival.

S4 of Discovery honored the spirit of Roddenberry to the point of parody. None of the "bad guys" were really bad; they were just misunderstood. Conflict arose only when characters had different opinions of what was gooder. Nobody wanted to hurt anybody else. While the story was entertaining, and I appreciate their bucking the dystopia zeitgeist underlying most contemporary sf, the morality crossed into eyeroll territory at times.

I'm still looking forward to S5 though.

And Data is a ripoff (or homage if you want to be charitable) of Maschinenmensch , Johnny Five, the robot from Lost in Space or Forbidden Planet (take your pick), a lot of Isaac Asimov's stuff, etc., etc., etc.. There are numerous Star Trek episodes in TNG, DS9, Voyage, etc, that were an awful lot like Arrival. People fighting over who is more right while none of them are completely wrong is also something else that has a long history in Star Trek. I mean, those complaints seem to be more a gripe about Star Trek in general, to be honest. Especially when complaining about a show being too full of morality. I mean, a common complaint about season 1 was that it was lacking such (too dark, was the complaint).

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:29 pm**

I still say S4 laid it on too thick. It's still the 3rd-best of the new ST shows: Brave New Worlds > Lower Decks > Discovery > Prodigy >>> Picard.

I was surprised that I liked Prodigy as much as I did. Expectations were low; I almost took a pass on it, knowing that it's a Nickelodeon children's show. The animation is top-notch and the many cameos and callbacks are fun to watch for. The Kobayashi Maru episode was a blast.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:37 pm**

I'll have to check out prodigy.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:17 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:29 pm I still say S4 laid it on too thick. It's still the 3rd-best of the new ST shows: Brave New Worlds > Lower Decks > Discovery > Prodigy >>> Picard.

I was surprised that I liked Prodigy as much as I did. Expectations were low; I almost took a pass on it, knowing that it's a Nickelodeon children's show. The animation is top-notch and the many cameos and callbacks are fun to watch for. The Kobayashi Maru episode was a blast.

I liked Discovery better than Strange New Worlds (though SNW has only had one season so far, so there's still room to grow). And I liked Discovery S4. Discovery in general is prone to deus ex machina events that *really* strain credulity - the end of season 1 in particular and the resolution of the Klingon War was just incredibly stupid to me. BUT the characters are so great (I love Ceru in particular) and the writing overall is strong enough that I'm willing to overlook the occasional eyeroll.

Haven't watched Lower Decks or Prodigy yet. I keep hearing good things about Lower Decks in particular, so I'll need to check it out.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:59 am**

I hated Lower Decks at first, but I gave it a chance and eventually came around. I think the Easter Eggs they scatter around for old time fans is the main draw for me.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:29 am**

The first season of Lower Decks was meh, but it gets funnier when the characters gel in S2.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:31 am**

For busy professionals on the go like myself, does it make sense to skip season 1? Or is there too much character development needed for later seasons?

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:35 am**

I've only seen the first two seasons, but I wouldn't skip the first just for development/arc building and the fact that it's just a lot of fun and a small commitment.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:09 pm**

You should watch the first season. They're also only half-hour episodes. It's a quick binge.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:09 pm**

Spoilers in this Im sure.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:12 pm**

The trailer's fine. The bigger issue is that it's impossible for me to imagine that they made a decent third season after the shitshow that was season 2.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:19 pm**

Whaaattttt????? You DIDN'T enjoy the adventures of the combat boot wearing emo Borg queen??? What about the AI expert turned Snidely Whiplash whose brilliant strategy to delete Picard from the timeline in a clever manner is to run him over with a car in front of a gala? Surely THAT was worth the price of admission for season 2 alone!

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:22 pm**

All they've really shown over the course of the first two seasons is that they make better trailers than actual show. I remain very nervous about this one, as I heard one of the producers say not everyone is safe and not everyone is going to get out alive. If Lore gets jettisoned out the airlock, that's one thing, but touch any of the main characters and it will end on a depressing note.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:07 pm**

Rumpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:22 pm All they've really shown over the course of the first two seasons is that they make better trailers than actual show. I remain very nervous about this one, as I heard one of the producers say not everyone is safe and not everyone is going to get out alive. If Lore gets jettisoned out the airlock, that's one thing, but touch any of the main characters and it will end on a depressing note.

If they give a main character a reasonable and heroic death then it could be good. Realistically they are getting old and won't be able to act forever.
This is one of the reason I'm kind of looking forward to completely computerized photo and audio real movies or shows. Not trying to have anyone lose jobs but think about if they made a good serues of shows or films where we didn't have to worry about people leaving for one reason or another. They could stay the same age forever or age slowly or deage whenever the show runners wanted. I'm talking about good shows only though. I'm sure the diwnside would be that they may decide to just throw a lot of stuff and see what sticks. But think about any shiw or film you really liked that either couldn't continue because an actor left or fell apart because an actor left and think of the possibilities if that could never happen. Sure the execs would still axe popular things because they thought it wasn't worth it but a lot could keep going. Heck, if it becomes cheap they may keep some things around just because it was cheap enough. This would probably be best for a streaming service to make it easier for people to pick and choose.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:16 pm**

Punisher wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:07 pm
If they give a main character a reasonable and heroic death then it could be good. Realistically they are getting old and won't be able to act forever.

Sure, yeah that goes without saying. If they have to, it should be heroic. But the way Bruce Maddox was handled, it gives me reasonable doubt. His death was handled so senselessly, feeling like a death for the sake of death.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:21 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:19 pm Whaaattttt????? You DIDN'T enjoy the adventures of the combat boot wearing emo Borg queen??? What about the AI expert turned Snidely Whiplash whose brilliant strategy to delete Picard from the timeline in a clever manner is to run him over with a car in front of a gala? Surely THAT was worth the price of admission for season 2 alone!

It's really saying something that you listed two completely ridiculous things that actually happened in Picard season 2 and neither of them was a Star Trek character eating car batteries in a 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

I should probably just lean into the ridiculousness and enjoy Picard as a comedy.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:54 pm**

Picard wakes up next to Suzanne Pleshette in a high-security mental institution.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:38 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:21 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:19 pm Whaaattttt????? You DIDN'T enjoy the adventures of the combat boot wearing emo Borg queen??? What about the AI expert turned Snidely Whiplash whose brilliant strategy to delete Picard from the timeline in a clever manner is to run him over with a car in front of a gala? Surely THAT was worth the price of admission for season 2 alone!
It's really saying something that you listed two completely ridiculous things that actually happened in Picard season 2 and neither of them was a Star Trek character eating car batteries in a 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

I should probably just lean into the ridiculousness and enjoy Picard as a comedy.

Sometimes you encounter something so traumatizingly silly that your mind just blanks it out as a defense mechanism.

It's also why I will just look quizzically at people with a blank expression when I hear the words "jeffv" and "bike shorts" in the same sentence.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:44 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:21 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:19 pm Whaaattttt????? You DIDN'T enjoy the adventures of the combat boot wearing emo Borg queen??? What about the AI expert turned Snidely Whiplash whose brilliant strategy to delete Picard from the timeline in a clever manner is to run him over with a car in front of a gala? Surely THAT was worth the price of admission for season 2 alone!
It's really saying something that you listed two completely ridiculous things that actually happened in Picard season 2 and neither of them was a Star Trek character eating car batteries in a 21st century Los Angeles parking lot.

I should probably just lean into the ridiculousness and enjoy Picard as a comedy.

Or the time when one main character claimed they didn't know how to drive, drove extremely erratically, then improved dramatically moments later, tore around LA sans traffic for about 10 minutes, only for the chase or whatever you want to call it just ending pointlessly?

Octopus Overlords

[TV] New Star Trek Show in Development?

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