Octopus Overlords

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:32 amToo bad he lost the entire 2A crowd when he slipped and put ‘military style’ in front of ‘gun/rifle’.

They were never listening to begin with. They never do. And I suspect they never will.

No, they listen only to the point of listening FOR those kind of slips - for argument ‘ammo’.

That’s probably done at a higher level though, like NRA or certain media corps, where they go through EVERYthing said, then a speech like this will get cut down and edited to highlight what triggers the 2a types - a liberal not using the exact phraseology when describing their Precious.

So it’s listened to, parsed and filtered at a certain level. The only exposure the gun supporter ‘on the street’ as it were has to this kind of speech is via his preferred gun friendly media platform, whether that’s Fox or NRA emailed newsletter. By then it’s unrecognizable.

‘This Connecticut LIBERAL elite ONCE AGAIN proving liberals have no business talking about guns. AGAIN they called this weapon a ‘military style rifle’?! Unbelievable!!! Every reasonable, level headed, responsible gun owner KNOWS the weapon used here was a civilian KP459 Special. You can buy those at Walmart! Argument nullified!’

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:58 am No, they listen only to the point of listening FOR those kind of slips - for argument ‘ammo’.

That’s probably done at a higher level though, like NRA or certain media corps, where they go through EVERYthing said, then a speech like this will get cut down and edited to highlight what triggers the 2a types - a liberal not using the exact phraseology when describing their Precious.

So it’s listened to, parsed and filtered at a certain level. The only exposure the gun supporter ‘on the street’ as it were has to this kind of speech is via his preferred gun friendly media platform, whether that’s Fox or NRA emailed newsletter. By then it’s unrecognizable.

‘This Connecticut LIBERAL elite ONCE AGAIN proving liberals have no business talking about guns. AGAIN they called this weapon a ‘military style rifle’?! Unbelievable!!! Every reasonable, level headed, responsible gun owner KNOWS the weapon used here was a civilian KP459 Special. You can buy those at Walmart! Argument nullified!’

It's not limited to high-level parsing. It's trickled down the rank and file. As with all these things (abortion, ID, CRT, etc) the talking posts are well rehearsed and learned by rote.

Incidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 am Incidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

Oh, when the right borrows political correctness.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 amIncidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

The right image on that page looks super 'sporty' to me.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 am Incidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

‘Course they are! Though that’s a little too on the nose if you ask me. ‘Potentially harmful self-defense device’ has a nicer ring to my ear.

Maybe ‘if I didn’t have this gun I would starve because hunting’ could be worked into a nice media-friendly acronym.

Or we could just go straight up Idiocracy and start calling them “pew-pews” like the children we apparently are.

You can't see what they're looking at. For all you know, it's coming right for them!

CNN

Law enforcement officers quickly entered the building and had him in custody within three minutes of their arrival, the sheriff said.

Once the suspect encountered the officers, he put his hands up and they took a gun from him before placing him in custody.

The gun, a 9MM Sig Sauer SP2022 pistol, was loaded with seven rounds.

Investigators identified the victims who died as Tate Myre, 16, Hanna St. Julian, 14, and Madisyn Baldwin, 17.

Myre died in a patrol car as a deputy was attempting to rush him to the hospital due to the "severity of his wounds," Bouchard said.

Eight others -- seven students and a teacher -- were shot, Bouchard said. Three are in critical condition with gunshot wounds, including a 14-year-old girl who is on a ventilator after having surgery. A 14-year-old boy is in serious condition with a gunshot wound to the jaw and head, Bouchard said. Three students are in stable condition and the teacher who was shot has been discharged.
...
The suspect's parents hired an attorney and have not permitted him to talk with police, officials said.

The semiautomatic handgun recovered by law enforcement was bought by the suspect's father on Friday, Bouchard said.
...
Two 15-round magazines were found at the scene, Bouchard said, noting at least 12 rounds were fired.

malchior wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:51 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:32 amToo bad he lost the entire 2A crowd when he slipped and put ‘military style’ in front of ‘gun/rifle’.

They were never listening to begin with. They never do. And I suspect they never will.

If we don't want oblivious men legislating women's health issues, why would ill-informed people legislating firearm rights be any better?

The semiautomatic handgun recovered by law enforcement was bought by the suspect's father on Friday, Bouchard said.

This is the problem with the latest surge in gun sales. The firearm shouldn't have been accessible to the kid. Whether the father is a first time gun owner not, this is a total fuck up. No wonder they sent the attorney in to shut the kid up.

malchior wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 amIncidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

The right image on that page looks super 'sporty' to me.

Suppressor is to protect delicate ears. Haven't you heard about the Hearing Protection Act?

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:02 pm

malchior wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 amIncidentally, the AR-15 and clones are now known as "modern sporting rifles."

The right image on that page looks super 'sporty' to me.

Suppressor is to protect delicate ears. Haven't you heard about the Hearing Protection Act?

What sporting man doesn't need a spotter for his 1 km deer kills!?

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:59 pm

The semiautomatic handgun recovered by law enforcement was bought by the suspect's father on Friday, Bouchard said.

This is the problem with the latest surge in gun sales. The firearm shouldn't have been accessible to the kid. Whether the father is a first time gun owner not, this is a total fuck up. No wonder they sent the attorney in to shut the kid up.

Agreed. Dad should be pilloried for this.

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:16 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:59 pm

The semiautomatic handgun recovered by law enforcement was bought by the suspect's father on Friday, Bouchard said.

This is the problem with the latest surge in gun sales. The firearm shouldn't have been accessible to the kid. Whether the father is a first time gun owner not, this is a total fuck up. No wonder they sent the attorney in to shut the kid up.

Agreed. Dad should be pilloried for this.

Soooo much this. I also don't see dad as first time gun owner. Kid knew how to aim and fire and reload. I don't know what kind of fire you can put to the dad but I'd put all the fire I'd have at my disposal on him. All of it.

Daehawk wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:57 pm Support for gun control just hit its lowest point in almost a decade

Its because there are a ton of new gun owners over the past year and a half. I know in Illinois there are also a ton of first time want-to-own-gun people who are dismayed by the state FOID process.

You also have a lot of liberal-leaning gun groups popping up.

Freep

A fourth Oxford High student, 17-year-old Justin Shilling, died at McLaren Oakland Hospital in Pontiac, undersheriff Mike McCabe said.

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:16 pmAgreed. Dad should be pilloried for this.

Too little info for my tastes right now.

Assuming a 15 year old lives with you, I'm not sure there is much that can be reasonably done to prevent them from gaining access to anything in the house, given sufficient time and motivation. My guns, for instance, are kept in a locked safe in my closet. I've never shown my kids where the keys are. But they are smart teenagers who are left alone at the house with some regularity. If they really wanted to find their way in, I suspect they could.

We'll no doubt find out more in the next few days.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:09 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:16 pmAgreed. Dad should be pilloried for this.

Too little info for my tastes right now.

Assuming a 15 year old lives with you, I'm not sure there is much that can be reasonably done to prevent them from gaining access to anything in the house, given sufficient time and motivation. My guns, for instance, are kept in a locked safe in my closet. I've never shown my kids where the keys are. But they are smart teenagers who are left alone at the house with some regularity. If they really wanted to find their way in, I suspect they could.

We'll no doubt find out more in the next few days.

Part of the equation is making sure they don't want to find their way in. Be that because you remove the novelty of playing with guns or you instill the fear of God in them or whatever else.

Establish trust, but then verify (with locks).

Trust(TM), Now With Locks and Cameras!

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:59 pm Trust(TM), Now With Locks and Cameras!

Yeah.

I hear you, LR, but that rationale doesn't land for me. You're either capable of and responsible for ensuring the guns aren't misused by minors in your household, or you're not. Until they're 18, you're responsible. 'But golly, they sure are smart kids' isn't relevant.

If you have locked guns in the house, why wouldn't you carry the key with you at nearly all times, and especially when you're out of the house?

When I was a teen, my friends' gun-owning parents rightly assumed we would be attracted to weapons. (None of us were killers, but guns are cool.) They made damn sure we couldn't open the gun cabinet.

Leave the liquor out in the open, fine, but lock up the damn guns.

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:03 pmUntil they're 18, you're responsible. 'But golly, they sure are smart kids' isn't relevant.

That would make sense if the shooter were being tried as a child. But they’re not - they’re being tried as adult.

So legally, at least, the shooter is not a child for this purpose.

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:18 pmThey made damn sure we couldn't open the gun cabinet.

How? What exactly did they do? And how hard did you try?

I don't recall ever breaking into a gun cabinet as a child, but then, getting hold of guns in New Mexico in the 80s wasn't very hard - when we wanted them, we just ordered them from a catalog and had them shipped to one of my friends houses. His dad didn't care as long as we gave him the money.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:03 pmUntil they're 18, you're responsible. 'But golly, they sure are smart kids' isn't relevant.

That would make sense if the shooter were being tried as a child. But they’re not - they’re being tried as adult.

So legally, at least, the shooter is not a child for this purpose.

I'm not taking about this case but rather about the general sentiment that teenagers just might find a way.

This part:

Assuming a 15 year old lives with you, I'm not sure there is much that can be reasonably done to prevent them from gaining access to anything in the house, given sufficient time and motivation. My guns, for instance, are kept in a locked safe in my closet. I've never shown my kids where the keys are. But they are smart teenagers who are left alone at the house with some regularity. If they really wanted to find their way in, I suspect they could.

That mentality, I would posit, is a sign that your guns need to go. Again, you are either taking responsibility for the proper storage and use of your guns, or you are not.

But I'm just a guy on the internet.

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:19 pmI'm not taking about this case but rather about the general sentiment that teenagers just might find a way.

How many teenagers have you raised?

Parents have struggled to control their teenaged children from time immemorial, and for good reason - they often have adult physical and mental capabilities, but that's paired with an appalling lack of perspective and judgment. Despite the best efforts of parents everywhere, teenagers do drugs, have sex, get in fights, and commit crime. I'm certainly open to the idea that we should be holding the parents responsible for the sins of their children, but I suspect that would come with a LOT of a unintended side effects.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:36 pmPart of the equation is making sure they don't want to find their way in. Be that because you remove the novelty of playing with guns or you instill the fear of God in them or whatever else.

Yup. I decided to lean in - my kids got gun training fairly early on. They've had experience with a wide variety of firearms. They know how to load/unload them, how to clear chambers, and what it feels like to have one go off in your hands. And I've made sure they see what happens to things on the business end of those guns. I figured that they're going to grow up in a country awash with guns, so I would be remise as a parent if I didn't make sure they knew how to handle them.

But of course, if one of my kids turns out to be a total psychopath, all I've done is give them better tools for causing mayhem. It's a gamble.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:05 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:18 pmThey made damn sure we couldn't open the gun cabinet.

How? What exactly did they do? And how hard did you try?

The gun cabinet was metal and the key was on the dad's key ring, as it should have been.

A friend-of-a-friend had parents who took no such precautions. He shot himself in the head.

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:21 pmThe gun cabinet was metal and the key was on the dad's key ring, as it should have been.

Did you try to pick it? Did your friend ever try to steal the key and make a copy of it? Did you search the house to see if there was a duplicate somewhere? Did you check the safe to see if there was a backup locking device that you could open with a tubular impressioning tool?

I mean, it sounds like everyone knew where a key WAS...which back in my day was half the battle when it came to stealing it.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:34 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:21 pmThe gun cabinet was metal and the key was on the dad's key ring, as it should have been.

Did you try to pick it? Did your friend ever try to steal the key and make a copy of it? Did you search the house to see if there was a duplicate somewhere? Did you check the safe to see if there was a backup locking device that you could open with a tubular impressioning tool?

I mean, it sounds like everyone knew where a key WAS...which back in my day was half the battle when it came to stealing it.

No, we didn't try to pick it or copy the key.

Does the fact that someone could conceivably do so mean that we should just do away with such security?

My uncles made sure I had a healthy fear of guns. Let me try a pistol without bracing, then showed me the right way until I could hit a target. Which wasn’t easy having terrible eyesight. Then let me try a shotgun, and learned the difference by getting knocked on my ass again.

My aunt’s first husband killed himself with a gun while being drunk, and her second husband left the group that night because of my grandfather’s rule not to hunt or fish while drunk. You drink afterwards, not during.

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:38 pmDoes the fact that someone could conceivably do so mean that we should just do away with such security?

Not at all. But it illustrates why we usually use the term "reasonable measures" when it comes to deciding whether or not someone has done their due diligence.

Most people would say that your friends father's security precautions were reasonable, despite the fact that any halfway motivated teenager living in the house could probably have easily overcome them. Because at the end of the day, there's only so much you can do....almost any security can be overcome with sufficient time and effort. But there's still a big difference between defeated precaution and no precaution - and there are a lot of people in the US who are WAY too lax about how they store their firearms. We can barely go a day without a story about how a child (not a teen) managed to get hold of a loaded gun and tragedy ensued.

I have no idea where Ethan's parents fall on this spectrum. I suspect we'll find out, though.

I'll admit I'm not tapped into gun culture, but are there lots of (any?) stories about teenagers picking locks, stealing keys, cracking safes, etc... to gain access to firearms? Because I'll fully admit in my small circle of associates I was never in a position where a friend or a friend of a friend said, "Hey, my dad has a gun safe, let's go and try to get it open."

I'd also thought it was "best practice" to store a gun and the ammo separate - both locked, of course. If a kid can crack two different safes, I guess that's something.

However, I can't help but shake the feeling that when we hear about kids and guns it's because said gun is left unsecured and loaded - so the adult in the house can start blasting when an intruder breaks in a 3am and tries to rape the dog.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:01 pmI'll admit I'm not tapped into gun culture, but are there lots of (any?) stories about teenagers picking locks, stealing keys, cracking safes, etc... to gain access to firearms?

It's not entirely clear what happened in the case of Adam Lanza. His mother supposedly kept all of her rifles locked up in a safe, but once he murdered her he managed to get access to them. This is not very specific, but says in regards to school shootings that "The study of incidents from 2008 through 2017 found that in nearly half of the shootings, the evidence indicates the firearm was easily accessible or was not stored securely." That would indicate that half of the time, the firearm WAS stored securely, but I have no idea what that means in this context.

Because I'll fully admit in my small circle of associates I was never in a position where a friend or a friend of a friend said, "Hey, my dad has a gun safe, let's go and try to get it open."

Like I said, neither did I, but that's because there were easier ways to get guns back then. There was definitely a period in my teens where that would not have been out of character, though.

I'd also thought it was "best practice" to store a gun and the ammo separate - both locked, of course. If a kid can crack two different safes, I guess that's something.

Depends on what your goal is.

If you're just storing the weapon, then yes, that's the best practice. But if you plan on actually using it for defense, then that's a terrible plan - you'll never get it out and loaded before you need it. Now I'm fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood where the risk of my needing a gun on a moment's notice is negligible, but I'm also not very representative of most Americans.

My 12 year old daughter told me tonight she is questioning if reality is actually real, and if it is, she isn't sure she wants to live in this one.
Yes, she is just learning about the school shootings.

Freyland wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:10 pm My 12 year old daughter told me tonight she is questioning if reality is actually real, and if it is, she isn't sure she wants to live in this one.
Yes, she is just learning about the school shootings.

Well, that opens up a whole career path in psychology, neuroscience, physics, ...

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:21 pm

Freyland wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:10 pm My 12 year old daughter told me tonight she is questioning if reality is actually real, and if it is, she isn't sure she wants to live in this one.
Yes, she is just learning about the school shootings.

Well, that opens up a whole career path in psychology, neuroscience, physics, ...

Philosophy! A career in... Oh yeah, nevermind.

Sorry Freyland. That's a tough mindset.

Zarathud wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:40 pm My uncles made sure I had a healthy fear of guns. Let me try a pistol without bracing, then showed me the right way until I could hit a target. Which wasn’t easy having terrible eyesight. Then let me try a shotgun, and learned the difference by getting knocked on my ass again.

My aunt’s first husband killed himself with a gun while being drunk, and her second husband left the group that night because of my grandfather’s rule not to hunt or fish while drunk. You drink afterwards, not during.

My father gave me a healthy enough fear of guns that I never followed his footsteps as a hunter and never dreamed of playing with his gun cabinet. Of course, he also saw more than his fair share of killing in his military tour in the Pacific that he never wanted to talked about and the closest paternal neighbor took his own head off with a handgun while I was in elementary school. So that healthy fear stuck.

Drunk hunters is probably the second biggest reason I never became a hunter. The first being I have no constitution for killing a mobile living thing other than insects.

Smoove_B wrote:I'll admit I'm not tapped into gun culture, but are there lots of (any?) stories about teenagers picking locks, stealing keys, cracking safes, etc... to gain access to firearms? Because I'll fully admit in my small circle of associates I was never in a position where a friend or a friend of a friend said, "Hey, my dad has a gun safe, let's go and try to get it open."

I’ve not heard of going to those lengths, but you did have an associate who shot himself not once, but TWICE. Once with the gun and once without it. Gun and ammo were stored separately and gun had the firing pin removed (but neither were locked up).

My father, although I love him dearly and he's one of the sweetest people alive, failed miserably on the whole gun storage thing. His idea of security for the old Ruger .22 pistol he had was to just put it in a shoebox....loaded...on the top shelf of his bedroom closet. By the time I was 12, I figured out how elevation worked and was also able to figure out how to drag a chair into his room while he was at work and climb on top of it to get that gun. Then my friends and I would go off to the woods to target practice for the day. Since he rarely ever checked it, he never noticed that the ammunition box next to it was getting emptier and emptier over the course of a few summer vacations.

I suspect his approach to gun security is reflective of the greater population of gun owners in this country.