Disaster Tourism: The Titanic

[Punisher]

Have we stopped to consider that the buck stops at the top, and it's Joe Biden's fault that the Coast Guard didn't bother to rescue those brave pioneers of the deep? Because it looks like maybe Dan Crenshaw has done just that.

Rep. Dan Crenshaw Slams Emergency Response to Doomed Sub, Calls it ‘Epic Failure of Leadership’

Former Navy SEAL and current Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) had strong words about the emergency response to the missing OceanGate submersible this week, calling it an “epic failure of leadership.”

Crenshaw appeared on Fox News Thursday night, where host Trace Gallagher rolled tape from Crenshaw speaking to reporters on the steps of the Capitol.

“I have been hearing a lot of concerning things from people, the civilian side who are involved in this,” Crenshaw told reporters. “You know, we’ve got to look into it, see what’s true and what isn’t…What appears to be the case is epic failure in leadership. Where exactly that leadership failure is, I don’t know. Is it the White House, Coast Guard, Navy? I’m not sure.”

He's right. This WAS an epic failure of leadership. The leader of the company who ran the sub. Failure to lead the way in safety.

Realistically if the sub imploded I doubt anything could have been done.
Not to mention, how much responsibility should the government have to protect a private company in international waters who decided to snub any US safety concerns?

[Kraken]

Titanic-a-Lago!

[em2nought]

So I wonder how much more the view port rated for 4000 meters cost than the window rated for 1400 meters?

[malchior]

I am shocked that someone who is paying for a Twitter checkmark is already posting memes that blame this all on... women.

Well they needed to defend the honor of our betters. At the expense of women is the time-honored traditional method.

[Zaxxon]

It's fitting that the victims of the Titan's owner's hubris are resting 1,600 feet from the victims of the Titanic owners' hubris, and that they've now doubled its tourist appeal.

They are absolutely not. They're gone, literally. I've seen the effects of a hull breach at this depth described as 50x the Byford Dolphin incident, and if you know that one and what that did to the victims...

[GreenGoo]

I hear ya, but I don't subscribe to that absurd rule. Of course, the presence of offspring is important - it's basically the entire point of Darwinism (IMO).

100% agreement. It's the entire point.

[GreenGoo]

I'm not glad that they died, and I'm not celebrating what happened, but I also won't deny people the right to vent, nor will I judge them for it.

I'm not glad either, but I realize that I just don't care, and that I enjoy jokes about the tragedy, which is only a tragedy for those who knew them. For most, it's just another day. I guess I have near zero empathy for this sort of thing. Innocent toddler killed by stray bullet? Sure, that's a tragedy and it hurts to read about. Billionaires die while doing billionaire things? Whoops, I guess?

Plus, dark humour has and will always be a thing. Whether you enjoy it or just some examples but not others, it's not going away.

[Holman]

I'll bet that this whole episode eventually becomes a shorthand parable.

After all, we've long-since turned the original Titanic into a set of metaphors that don't recall the horror of the sinking: "moving the deck chairs," "ignoring the iceberg," "And the band played on" (which has become attached to the disaster) etc.

"Diving to the Titanic" will probably mean any poorly-thought-out scheme that involves more money than sense.

[LawBeefaroni]

I keep coming back to the Trieste. It was designed in the 1940s, built in various iterations over several decades (delayed due to WWII), and successfully dove into the Mariana Trench in 1960. It went 36,000 feet deep, far deeper than the Titan. That's about the same as Cameron's "record breaking" solo dive - the Trieste had two occupants.

The design for a safe submersible has been around for a while. A thick steel sphere. Instead the Titan went with a cylinder made of titanium and carbon fiber (?). Sometimes innovation needs to be tempered by science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste_(bathyscaphe)

To withstand the enormous pressure of 1,250 kilograms per square centimetre (123 MPa) at the bottom of Challenger Deep, the sphere's walls were 12.7 centimetres (5.0 in) thick; it was over-designed to withstand considerably more than the rated pressure.

Cameron's Deepsea Challenger also uses a sphere for the pilot compartment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_Challenger

The submersible features a pilot sphere measuring 1.1 metres (43 in) in diameter, large enough for only one occupant.[24] The sphere, with steel walls 64 mm (2.5 in) thick, was tested for its ability to withstand the required 114 megapascals (16,500 pounds per square inch) of pressure in a pressure chamber at Pennsylvania State University.[25] The sphere sits at the base of the 11.8-tonne (13.0-short-ton) vehicle.

[Rumpy]

It's probably because they wanted to be able to have as many people in it as possible. But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating. But man, the irony isn't lost on the fact that history repeated itself with a man who ignored repeated dangers to go see the ship that was doomed by its overconfident crew of it being 'unsinkable" ignoring iceberg calls until it was too late.

There's a perverse irony there. The moral of the story is, maybe don't ignore those warnings as they most likely will lead you down a path of no-return.

[GreenGoo]

Good luck working every again, engineer who designed/signed off on the design.

[Max Peck]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

[Blackhawk]

It's fitting that the victims of the Titan's owner's hubris are resting 1,600 feet from the victims of the Titanic owners' hubris, and that they've now doubled its tourist appeal.

They are absolutely not. They're gone, literally. I've seen the effects of a hull breach at this depth described as 50x the Byford Dolphin incident, and if you know that one and what that did to the victims...

Fair warning: Ugly details.

Maybe. I spent way too much time digging into this. The Byford Dolphin was rapid depressurization of a hyperbaric chamber (the opposite of what happened here), and three of the four direct deaths (not counting the guy that got hit by the hatch) were caused by the sudden change in pressure causing them to essentially develop instant 'super-bends'. The last death was due to the guy standing in the half-open hatch when the pressure rushed out, pushing him out with it.

The experts don't all agree on the effects. They aren't sure, for instance, about whether the pressure driven heat (several thousands of degrees in a milliseconds) would occur on a vessel that small. I was able to glean that what happened would depend on how the sub breached. One result (I believe with a breach of the hull itself, along the length) would be like getting hit by a semi going a hundred miles an hour - damaged, but mostly intact. The other possibility would be what you described - the sudden inrush of pressure (IE, water at 6000 PSI) causing a shock wave that would tear the sub (and the contents) to shreds. The pressure after the fact wouldn't do much to their bodies, as the pressure would be from every direction, and we're mostly water and not compressible.

Regardless of the details, everyone agrees that the entire process would have taken between 20 and 30 milliseconds, so fast that, had there been something to see, their minds wouldn't have been able to receive and the data from their eyes before it was over. The metaphorical light switch.

Which is, I think, a good thing.

[Rumpy]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Well, either way, it wasn't rated and tried to go down to Titanic depths. And it should hopefully serve as a reminder for why cutting corners is a bad idea, especially when lives are in question.

[El Guapo]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

It's actually even worse than *that*, as I understand it. An Oceangate employee refused to certify the sub for human testing because he said it wasn't safe, so the guy was fired by Oceangate (prompting litigation and a settlement).

[Punisher]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Well, either way, it wasn't rated and tried to go down to Titanic depths. And it should hopefully serve as a reminder for why cutting corners is a bad idea, especially when lives are in question.

That seems way too optimistic.
There are still plenty of people with money where money>lives.
I can even see them justifying by saying well I'm smarter than he was so nothing like that will happen with me.
Not too mention the people who HAVE to be daredevils to either show off, feel like they have value or both.
We will always have people who need to push the envelope and damn the consequences.

[Rumpy]

I guess I'm an optimistic person in general

[Max Peck]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

It's actually even worse than *that*, as I understand it. An Oceangate employee refused to certify the sub for human testing because he said it wasn't safe, so the guy was fired by Oceangate (prompting litigation and a settlement).

Pretty much. The employee was David Lochridge, a submersible pilot who was director of marine operations at OceanGate, which made him responsible for crew and passenger safety. Apparently he had concerns about the safety of earlier prototypes and refused to greenlight manned tests. He ended up getting fired over it, was sued by OceanGate for allegedly disclosing confidential information, and counter-sued them for wrongful termination on the grounds that he was fired in order to silence his concerns. Some of the information that was discussed here as the incident transpired comes from the court documents related to those lawsuits.

There's a detailed account of how it all played out here.

[Holman]

https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/stat ... 74021?s=20

Good concise thread from a trained sonar officer on the complexity of identifying and locating sounds at depth.

[Unagi]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Also, the whole 'carbon fiber' thing was a total deal breaker for any certification - so there was no point.

[Isgrimnur]

Good concise thread from a trained sonar officer on the complexity of identifying and locating sounds at depth.

[Blackhawk]

I think he's trying to say, "Good thread, thanks."

I agree.

[Isgrimnur]

Yup.

Information and Security Issues Associated with the Loss of the USS THRESHER

The USS THRESHER went down in 1963.

The THRESHER pressure-hull and all internal compartments collapsed in about 100 milliseconds (ms) at a depth of 2400-feet with an energy release equal to the explosion of 22,500 pounds of TNT at that depth, a value consistent with acoustic detection of the event by multiple SOSUS arrays as a very high amplitude signal at ranges as great as 1300 nautical miles.
...
As also determined, the 100 ms duration of the THRESHER collapse event (complete destruction of the pressure-hull and all internal compartment) was significantly less than the minimum time required for human perception of the event: 50 ms for retinal integration plus 100 ms for cognitive integration; hence, those onboard THRESHER were unaware of the actual collapse event; it occurred too fast to be apprehended.

[Rumpy]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Also, the whole 'carbon fiber' thing was a total deal breaker for any certification - so there was no point.

Yeah, what were they even thinking with the carbon fiber?

[Max Peck]

But as far as I know, it was an unproven design that hadn't yet received its safety rating.

It wasn't a matter of "hadn't yet received its safety rating" -- OceanGate, as a matter of policy, chose not to have it rated, because going through the process would be too expensive, would take too long, and because Rush believed that safety is overrated.

Rush wanted to move fast and break things. He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Also, the whole 'carbon fiber' thing was a total deal breaker for any certification - so there was no point.

Yeah, what were they even thinking with the carbon fiber?

It is cheaper than carbon steel or titanium.

The Titanic Sub Was Made Cheap—and That May Have Sealed Its Fate

It seems as though OceanGate might have attempted to skirt many of these complexities in favor of saving money. The first—and perhaps most glaring—example comes from the way that the Titan was designed. Deep-sea submersibles like the DSV Alvin that discovered the wreck of the Titanic in 1986 are typically made of solid metal hulls like steel or titanium. However, OceanGate used a mix of carbon fiber and titanium.

Though lightweight and durable, submersibles aren’t traditionally made of carbon fiber because it simply isn’t as strong as metal. Despite this, the company used the material extensively for the Titan and even leveraged it as a marketing point on its website. “Titan is the world’s only carbon-fiber submersible capable of diving five people to 4,000 meters,” the site reads.

Strachan explained that both crewed and remote-controlled submersibles typically use a material called syntactic foam, which is known for being incredibly durable yet pliable at the extreme pressures of the deep sea. However, OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told Composites World in 2017 that he opted instead to use carbon fiber because it was more cost-effective.

OceanGate's decision to rely on a mix of carbon fiber and titanium for their vessel raised a few eyebrows and concerns—notably from the company’s own director of marine operations, David Lochridge.

Lochridge was fired and sued by the company after he brought up numerous safety issues regarding the design of the Titan and its hull in particular. “Given the prevalent flaws in the previously tested [one-third] scale model, and the visible flaws in the carbon end samples for the Titan, Lochridge again stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths,” his countersuit said.

It’s still unclear whether or not this design choice ultimately doomed the Titan. However, it certainly didn't help that the company seemed to forgo a safety and quality assessment by the Det Norske Veritas (DNV), an independent organization that certifies and inspects maritime vessels and is considered a standard in the industry.

[Rumpy]

Cheaper doesn't always make it right

[Max Peck]

But wait! There's more -- it was cheaper because it was old stock that Boeing wasn't going to use because it was past its Best Before date.

Mission Titanic, Part 2: Delays and an unsettling statement from the OceanGate CEO

Last month, I was very happy to be selected for the first team to dive down to the Titanic in Mission 2 of OceanGate Expedition's 2023 season. On our dive, the submersible Titan would be piloted by Oceangate CEO Stockton Rush.

Also aboard in the role of "advisor" would be experienced wreck explorer P.H. Nargeolet.

I was going as a "mission specialist," the label for non-staff passengers. Other mission specialists chosen were travel advisor Craig Curran of DePrez Travel Bureau in Rochester, N.Y., who had seen the Titan at a promotional event and had previously sent a client on a successful mission, and Stephen, an Australian Navy sub officer.

My impression of Stockton Rush's leadership style was that he is calm, patient, inclusive and caring. One night, he invited me to sit with him on the back deck and smoke Cuban cigars he had picked in St. John's.

I told him I don't normally smoke cigars but would be happy to. We were joined by the ship's captain and chief engineer.

Another side of Stockton emerged that evening as we puffed and watched the mission flag fluttering off the stern, the trailing Titan now obscured by fog. He talked about his history as a young pilot (he flew commercial jets in the Mideast at age 19 as a summer job); how his hopes to be an astronaut were scotched when his vision deteriorated to 20/25; his subsequent pivot to the sea and fascination with submersibles. This Stockton Rush was somewhat cocky, but I felt his accomplishments gave him the right to be so.

Only one thing concerned me: He said he had gotten the carbon fiber used to make the Titan at a big discount from Boeing because it was past its shelf-life for use in airplanes.

I asked him if that weren't a problem. He replied that those dates were set far before they had to be, and that Boeing and even NASA had participated in the design and testing of the Titan.

It is a conversation I have thought about a great deal over the past week.

Note that the person who wrote this article would have been on OceanGate's first dive of the season, except the weather never cooperated and his dive didn't happen.

[Punisher]

Honestly I would have never guessed that something like carbon fiber had any sort of best buy date.

[em2nought]

But wait! There's more -- it was cheaper because it was old stock that Boeing wasn't going to use because it was past its Best Before date.

I wonder if that thing had been sitting out in the sun ever since it was built, or if they even rinsed it off with fresh water after a dive?

Could you imagine if being too cheap to tarp that thing would have made a difference in this outcome.

[Max Peck]

This has got to be a bad take on something completely innocuous or just completely fake, right?

On the other hand it wouldn't even surprise me at this point.

https://twitter.com/williamlegate/statu ... 5004162050

NEW: photo reveals the monitor in the doomed Titanic sub was *screwed into* the carbon fiber hull…

[em2nought]

This has got to be a bad take on something completely innocuous or just completely fake, right?

Ok, that would be even worse than failing to tarp it. I wonder if they at least marked a depth setting on their drill bit before drilling those holes? I wrap a piece of scotch tape around my bit when it matters. I'm still guessing it's the 1400 meter rated window, they should have sourced from whoever made these sliding doors.

[hepcat]

One can only hope that this tragedy will spur regulators to be more strict in demanding certification and handing out fines to those who try to avoid that process.

[Unagi]

One can only hope that this tragedy will spur regulators to be more strict in demanding certification and handing out fines to those who try to avoid that process.

I don’t think that’s a thing in this North Atlantic jurisdiction.

I would like to think billionaires may start asking for certifications before they sponsor these efforts. But maybe not, if it means they would have to pay more.

[Max Peck]

To be fair, the only company providing this flavor of tourist deep sea diving using uncertified vessels just lost their only submersible, so that simplifies the due-diligence requirement for thrill-seeking billionaires for the immediate future. If anyone else is running this sort of operation, I haven't seen a peep about it.

[em2nought]

Logitech controller apparently better quality than it was thought to be.
https://twitter.com/mearmalite10/status ... 6535677952

[Max Peck]

While I can confirm the presence of submarine-related questions on the Amazon product page, I am disappointed by the lack of submarine-related product reviews for the Logitech F710. I expected better of you, Internet.

[Isgrimnur]

Logitech controller apparently better quality than it was thought to be.
https://twitter.com/mearmalite10/status ... 6535677952

[Max Peck]

Logitech controller apparently better quality than it was thought to be.
https://twitter.com/mearmalite10/status ... 6535677952

It's almost certainly a fake. I looked into it this morning and while that image is being passed around all over Twitter and TikTok, it appeared that nobody that actually has access to imagery from the debris field survey had released any images at all, let alone the one thing that would appeal to gamer shitposters' sense of lulz. In this timeline, though, it's certainly plausible that I missed a confirmation that it's real, especially given that I'm in a deep state of sleep deprivation courtesy of Vladimir and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day.

[Rumpy]

Note that the person who wrote this article would have been on OceanGate's first dive of the season, except the weather never cooperated and his dive didn't happen.

That man dodged a bullet. He must feel incredibly lucky that he wasn't on it.

Honestly I would have never guessed that something like carbon fiber had any sort of best buy date.

Yeah, you learn something new every day. The more we hear about it, the worse it sounds.

Logitech controller apparently better quality than it was thought to be.
https://twitter.com/mearmalite10/status ... 6535677952

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

[em2nought]

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

I assumed it was a fake when I posted it, and I've read that the sub had an inner lining with access panels in it to get to wires behind the inner lining. It does look like carbon fiber though. Who knows maybe the kid who drilled the holes drilled them the entire length of his drill bit since he wasn't one of those older experienced submariners the owner didn't like to hire? Maybe the kid had German ancestry like me and overdid things with 4" long screws or something? Maybe they didn't use a torque wrench to seal the hatch bolts all to the same spec because it was faster to use an impact wrench? Maybe nobody knew what a torque wrench was, and they were afraid to ask.