Prague - (Game Thread) GAME ON!!!

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:35 am

Remus West wrote:
stessier wrote:The KIM agents don't know each other, right? So KIM agent Q would have voted for some random dude and vice versa.
They don't? I'll need to look at the rules but I thought they did. If they do not then KIM Q could possibly have pushed for KIM Unagi without intent to do so.

I thought I read that also but now can't find it on quick glance.

Grund?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:29 pm

Lassr wrote:
Remus West wrote:
stessier wrote:The KIM agents don't know each other, right? So KIM agent Q would have voted for some random dude and vice versa.
They don't? I'll need to look at the rules but I thought they did. If they do not then KIM Q could possibly have pushed for KIM Unagi without intent to do so.
I thought I read that also but now can't find it on quick glance.

Grund?

I should add this to the rules or Q&A.

The KIM agents do not know one another by OO name at the beginning of the game. Each confirms his partner's identity only through one of the following means: (a) a KIM agent is exposed through torture, (b) the agents meet under the Charles Bridge.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:00 pm

Wait, so if we torture Unagi or Qantaga and they *survive*, they are a KIM AGENT, right?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:11 am

Chaosraven wrote:Wait, so if we torture Unagi or Qantaga and they *survive*, they are a KIM AGENT, right?

That was what I thought it would mean.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:23 am

Interrogating a KIM agent a second time allows them to lie a second time. We still get the clue whether he is KIM or not. However if we torture we end up killIng a good agent. However the rulez do not say if while torturing a good agent and killing him do we get the 2nd clue.

Grund, can you elaborate? Do we get the 2nd clue when killing a good agent?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:32 am

Scoop20906 wrote:Do we get the 2nd clue when killing a good agent?

Yes. Otherwise, it would be possible for a clue to die with its original bearer, leaving the puzzle unsolvable.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:04 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Do we get the 2nd clue when killing a good agent?
Yes. Otherwise, it would be possible for a clue to die with its original bearer, leaving the puzzle unsolvable.

Ok, thanks. So, it kind of makes sense to torture a person since we get his clue and also test to see if he is a KIM agent.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:42 am

Scoop20906 wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Do we get the 2nd clue when killing a good agent?
Yes. Otherwise, it would be possible for a clue to die with its original bearer, leaving the puzzle unsolvable.
Ok, thanks. So, it kind of makes sense to torture a person since we get his clue and also test to see if he is a KIM agent.

In the grand scheme of things, yes. Today, no.

Someone put Remus over the top so we still get our scan tonight please.

Oh, and Remus - this is a very good place for a self vote. If we lose our scan tonight and you could have stopped it, guess who is top on the list for torture? No pressure - just musing out loud.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:45 am

I hope everyone's holidays are going well.

IWe're just getting settled back at home, so 'm trying to catch up.

As for the duplicate clue, it looks like there are four possibilities:

(1) If the clues are indeed true duplicates, then neither Unagi nor I are KIM, also meaning that we are on separate teams.

(2) Unagi and/or I could be KIM who (one or both) chose not to plant false clues and lucked into having one of the duplicates. I can't imagine that KIM would waste the opportunity to plant falsehoods, as the value of confusing the two other teams would highly outweigh the value of allowing real clues to be revealed in an effort to stay hidden longer (thus giving away one of KIM's main advantages).

(3) I could be KIM and I somehow managed to manufacture an exact true clue that can now be viewed as a duplicate.

(4) Unagi is KIM and turned in an exact duplicate of my real clue to Grund as a false clue to be revealed upon his interrogation.

Of these scenarios, (2) seems the most unlikely. I think we (or at least I) can safely discard that scenario.

Obviously to me, but hopefully to most of you, (3) is also very unlikely. Not only would I have had to make up a clue out of my two clues, but I would have had to make up a clue that read identically to Unagi's clue (remembering that KIM have no idea of each other's identity and no possible means of communication).

That leaves (1) or (4) as the two likely scenarios. While it is indeed quite possible that Unagi's clue is a duplicate of mine, the odds of that occurrence seem rather slight (of course, no more slight than any other combo of two real clues, but slight enough to raise questions).

It would be quite ingenious for KIM Unagi to just turn in an exact copy of my clue as his false clue, thus seemingling uncovering a duplicate. Therefore, I think (4) is the scenario we need to test.

Unagi

I realize we're up against the deadline (sorry to have been gone from the game for most of the week). While unlikely to get a consensus on this with the deadline approaching tonight, I want to place a formal vote to see if others would like to test Unagi. if there's no traction by mid-afternoon, I will join the Remus train to avoid the loss of scans.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:54 am

While I think that is well reasoned, I don't see that the advantage of outing KIM Unagi today outweighs the penalty of losing Agent Unagi. I won't be voting for him today.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:15 pm

stessier wrote:While I think that is well reasoned, I don't see that the advantage of outing KIM Unagi today outweighs the penalty of losing Agent Unagi. I won't be voting for him today.

I contemplated interrogating Unagi again but decided against it at the moment but he won't die as an agent unless he is tortured which only happens with a torture vote or the3rd interrogation.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:23 pm

Aggregate vote history:
Lassr to interrogate Remus West(1)
Newcastle to interrogate stessier(1)
stessier to interrogate Remus West(2)
bb2112 to interrogate Remus West(3)
Chaosraven to interrogate Remus West(4)
Scoop20906 to interrogate Remus West(5)
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)

Individual vote history:
Lassr : interrogate Remus West
Newcastle : interrogate stessier
stessier : interrogate Remus West
bb2112 : interrogate Remus West
Chaosraven : interrogate Remus West
Scoop20906 : interrogate Remus West
Qantaga : interrogate Unagi

Currently Targeted:
Remus West(5): Lassr, stessier, bb2112, Chaosraven, Scooop20906
stessier(1): Newcastle
Unagi(1): Qantaga

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: El Guapo, Remus West, Unagi

Handlers: Will you submit a Solution?
Everyone: Whom will you interrogate?
Deadline: 9PM EST, Friday, 30 December 2011.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:30 pm

Let's finish the Remus vote today, and discuss doing Unagi later.

I also agree with Q, Unagi may be a Kim agent, but I don't want to do anything rash today.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:13 pm

Is it true the KIMs don't receive duplicate clues? I didn't see that in the rulez but it would be an important dictinction to know. Grund?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:42 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:Is it true the KIMs don't receive duplicate clues? I didn't see that in the rulez but it would be an important dictinction to know. Grund?

Grundbegriff wrote:Here's the rule on duplicates:

(a) There are 20 clues, but only 18 are distinct; two are duplicates of 2 among the 18.
(b) All 20 clues are distributed across the 10 players randomly, with the exception specified below in (c).
(c) Speaking of teams strictly as 4GS, 4BG, and 2KIM, I ensure that none of these three teams has both instances of a duplicated clue. If a team possesses one of a matched pair of clues, then one of the other two teams possesses its twin.

Beyond this constraint, any distribution of clues is possible.

Clause (c) is the relevant one here. Thinking in terms of three teams, I ensure that no single team (whether Goldman Saxon or Blusterberg Group or KIM) has the same clue twice. That's the only constraint, as mentioned. Therefore, given clue 1a and its duplicate, 1b, all of the following combinations are possible

(1) GS has 1a and BG has 1b
(2) GS has 1a and KIM has 1b
(3) BG has 1a and GS has 1b
(4) BG has 1a and KIM has 1b
(5) KIM has 1a and GS has 1b
(6) KIM has 1a and BG has 1b

and all of the following combinations are impossible:

(7) GS has 1a and GS has 1b
(8) BG has 1a and BG has 1b
(9) KIM has 1a and KIM has 1b

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:48 pm

Tick Tick Tick people!!!

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:57 pm

Thank you, Grund. That means that Unagi and Qantaga would have to be on the same team since the way I read this is that duplicate clues do not cross teams. Therefore its possible we have caught the two KIMs who didn't know each other and didn't realize they have Dup clues. Its also possible they are on one of the two good teams.

Which means we really should test Unagi as soon as possible. If he survives torture it means that Qantaga is a KIM as well.

Do I have that right?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:59 pm

Yeah, stess is right. We are only one vote away so we need to push for Remus before the deadline at 9PM. But, what is the problem? VOTE!!

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:07 pm

meh, maybe i dont feel like voting on remus......

scoop from what i understand chances are also he could simply have duplicate data...best way to find out if its a real duplicate or a kim forgery is by unturning each rock or put in others words we should interogate everyone else....i would find itodd that a kim agent would in fact simply give a duplicate of another persons data. why not change 1 word or even a number, rather than cast a beacon on yoruself by giving a pure duplicate.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Newcastle, if we don't get a consensus, then out Chiefs don't get a scan tonight. That hurts us and aids KIM. Only a KIM wants that. Are you KIM?

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:09 pm

i'll think about it. Though i'd like to scan stessier much more than remus...just sayin is all.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:16 pm

While I still think Unagi is our best scan target, I can't imagine sacrificing our Chiefs' scans.

Remus West

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:31 pm

Aggregate vote history:
Lassr to interrogate Remus West(1)
Newcastle to interrogate stessier(1)
stessier to interrogate Remus West(2)
bb2112 to interrogate Remus West(3)
Chaosraven to interrogate Remus West(4)
Scoop20906 to interrogate Remus West(5)
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)
Qantaga wd Unagi(0)
Qantaga to interrogate Remus West(6)

Individual vote history:
Lassr : interrogate Remus West
Newcastle : interrogate stessier
stessier : interrogate Remus West
bb2112 : interrogate Remus West
Chaosraven : interrogate Remus West
Scoop20906 : interrogate Remus West
Qantaga : interrogate Unagi, Remus West

Currently Targeted:
Remus West(6): Lassr, stessier, bb2112, Chaosraven, Scooop20906, Qantaga
stessier(1): Newcastle

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: El Guapo, Remus West, Unagi

Voting is closed.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:50 pm

Svatá Klára. What better place to spend New Year's Adam? And what better way to anticipate anticipating the new year than a hearty interrogation-- but whom to pursue....

In twos and fours, the restaurant's irregular patrons make their way toward the door. Only the regulars are left. Looking from face to face, one might readily read their thoughts...

"Whom to question, whom to question.... This patron seems intent on camping beyond closing time. And his bald pate seems vaguely obscene. Let's choose him".

As if driven by a hive mind, the gathered spooks draw close to the table of Remus West. Looking up toward them, he quickly recognizes their intent. With a calm, deliberate gesture, he raises his glass of port to them, takes a sip, abandons his folded napkin on the table and walks unprodded toward the seat of honor.

"Do your worst."

He stares at the newly exposed screen, awaiting its illumination, but nothing appears. However, he begins to hear a sound, growing in volume, emanating from its speakers:

"Are you smarter than a Fifth-Grader? Are you smarter than a Fifth-Grader?"

"No, no--" mutters Remus.

"The first category-- third grade math!"

"No! I sold out to corporate interests to escape that world. No! Aaaaaaagh..."

Rising with such haste that he topples the chair, Remus makes his way to the markerboard listing today's specials. In clear, distinct letters, he writes,

The planning nation has more assets than the United States.

It is night
Union Bag, Rolf, Turtleneck, and Cardigan: Whom will you scan (by OO name)?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you flee to the Drop Point?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you block anyone (by OO name)?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:02 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:Thank you, Grund. That means that Unagi and Qantaga would have to be on the same team since the way I read this is that duplicate clues do not cross teams. Therefore its possible we have caught the two KIMs who didn't know each other and didn't realize they have Dup clues. Its also possible they are on one of the two good teams.

Which means we really should test Unagi as soon as possible. If he survives torture it means that Qantaga is a KIM as well.

Do I have that right?

Newcastle, please re-read what I wrote. By torturing Unagi we can prove that Qantaga is NOT a KIM if Unagi doesn't survive since according to the rulez the duplicate clues are limited to team members.

(c) Speaking of teams strictly as 4GS, 4BG, and 2KIM, I ensure that none of these three teams has both instances of a duplicated clue. If a team possesses one of a matched pair of clues, then one of the other two teams possesses its twin.

We would also know the Unagi and Qantaga clues are real and not lies. Thats alot of information in a game where information is power.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:56 am

(Sorry, I was off work this week, playing with the kids)

Anyhow, I'm not a witch and I won't float - so anyone on 'my team' shouldn't want me tortured.

Not sure what I was to do. I recognized right away when Qantaga's interogated clue was one of my clues, that him and I were not on the same team.

I didn't (and don't) know if that's him being 'on the other team', or him being KIM.

The two ways I can see finding the moles are:
torturing them
scanning and finding them to have lied.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:31 am

Scoop20906 wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Thank you, Grund. That means that Unagi and Qantaga would have to be on the same team since the way I read this is that duplicate clues do not cross teams. Therefore its possible we have caught the two KIMs who didn't know each other and didn't realize they have Dup clues. Its also possible they are on one of the two good teams.

Which means we really should test Unagi as soon as possible. If he survives torture it means that Qantaga is a KIM as well.

Do I have that right?
Newcastle, please re-read what I wrote. By torturing Unagi we can prove that Qantaga is NOT a KIM if Unagi doesn't survive since according to the rulez the duplicate clues are limited to team members.

(c) Speaking of teams strictly as 4GS, 4BG, and 2KIM, I ensure that none of these three teams has both instances of a duplicated clue. If a team possesses one of a matched pair of clues, then one of the other two teams possesses its twin.
We would also know the Unagi and Qantaga clues are real and not lies. Thats alot of information in a game where information is power.

Not sure you have that right.

My understanding is the "duplicate clues" are never duplicated on the same team. The single fact of duplicated data is shared across two teams.

By killing me, you would indeed learn that I am not KIM, but that doesn't tell you if Q is KIM or not. (just that his interrogated clue wasn't a lie)

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:37 am

If Unagi survives (proving he is KIM) it will also prove that Qantaga is NOT.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:38 pm

Remus West wrote:If Unagi survives (proving he is KIM) it will also prove that Qantaga is NOT.

Scoop was saying:

Scoop20906 wrote:Newcastle, please re-read what I wrote. By torturing Unagi we can prove that Qantaga is NOT a KIM if Unagi doesn't survive since according to the rulez the duplicate clues are limited to team members.

If Unagi doesn't survive - thay does not say that Qantaga is not KIM, it basically says that he very well could be.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:46 pm

If Unagi survives torture, it reveals him as KIM, and therefore Q is not. If Unagi dies from torture, it proves him agent of whichever mainstream team, but does nothing to prove Q as KIM or not.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:30 pm

I read it differently.

Grund, can we get a ruling? Are duplicate clues confined to the same team (therefore Unagi and Qantaga on the same team since they seem to have duplicate clues) or are the clues specifically prevents to occur to plays on the same team (therefore Unagi and Qantaga must be on opposite teams since the seem to have duplicate clues)?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:47 pm

I can't quote from the Touchpad, but just scroll up to the last time he answered.

7, 8, and 9 are impossible.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:48 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:I read it differently.

Grund, can we get a ruling? Are duplicate clues confined to the same team (therefore Unagi and Qantaga on the same team since they seem to have duplicate clues) or are the clues specifically prevents to occur to plays on the same team (therefore Unagi and Qantaga must be on opposite teams since the seem to have duplicate clues)?

I wrote:

(a) There are 20 clues, but only 18 are distinct; two are duplicates of 2 among the 18.
(b) All 20 clues are distributed across the 10 players randomly, with the exception specified below in (c).
(c) Speaking of teams strictly as 4GS, 4BG, and 2KIM, I ensure that none of these three teams has both instances of a duplicated clue. If a team possesses one of a matched pair of clues, then one of the other two teams possesses its twin.

Beyond this constraint, any distribution of clues is possible.

Clause (c) is the relevant one here. Thinking in terms of three teams, I ensure that no single team (whether Goldman Saxon or Blusterberg Group or KIM) has the same clue twice. That's the only constraint, as mentioned. Therefore, given clue 1a and its duplicate, 1b, all of the following combinations are possible

(1) GS has 1a and BG has 1b
(2) GS has 1a and KIM has 1b
(3) BG has 1a and GS has 1b
(4) BG has 1a and KIM has 1b
(5) KIM has 1a and GS has 1b
(6) KIM has 1a and BG has 1b

and all of the following combinations are impossible:

(7) GS has 1a and GS has 1b
(8) BG has 1a and BG has 1b
(9) KIM has 1a and KIM has 1b

Both duplicate clues on the same team would be either case (7) or case (8) or case (9). These cases are described as "impossible" above.
Duplicate clues on mutually exclusive teams would be cases (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), or (6). These cases are described as "possible" above.

In what respect is this unclear?

Iff the clues are genuine duplicates, then Chaosraven's statement right here is exactly correct.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:31 pm

Turn FOUR: Morning

Goldman Saxon has 0 correct out of 15.
The Blusterberg Group has 0 correct out of 15.
KIM, Strike Force Umbrage, has 0 correct out of 15.

There are 20 clues in circulation, 2 per player across 10 players.
There are 18 discrete clues and 2 duplicates.
Items revealed through interrogation/torture so far: 2

Interrogation of Qantaga:
The nation that wishes to apply economic pressure has exactly 1 more asset than the covertly operating nation has.
Interrogation of Unagi:
The nation that wishes to apply economic pressure has exactly 1 more asset than the covertly operating nation has.
Interrogation of Remus West:
The planning nation has more assets than the United States.

You've taken a lovely walk at dawn. You've had a bit of adventure. You've arranged the dry-cleaning of your favorite suit.

You're ready for anything.

Boilerplate:

Handlers: Will you submit a Solution?
Everyone: Whom will you interrogate?
Deadline: 9PM EST, Wednesday, 04 January 2012. No-- seriously!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:45 am

Šťastný Nový Rok!

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:53 am

Grundbegriff wrote:Šťastný Nový Rok!

a požehnaný 2012 na všechny!

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:00 am

For the reasons found here:

Unagi

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:09 am

Unagi

Lets find out.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:52 am

Unagi

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Unagi