I think I fired my first real gun when I was 8, and I was allowed to take a .22 out target plinking in the desert when I was about 9. I think I owned my first gun (a .22 rifle) when I was 14. Gun safety was a talk about the rules. Once, I think. And guns were always in the house, never locked, along with ammo.
Result: I did lots of idiotic things with guns as a kid and mostly just got lucky that I never seriously injured myself. Highlights include shooting out the street light that shined in the window at night and 'swatting' flies in the house with a rifle.
Disclaimer: I wasn't so much raised as I was fed and left to my own devices. My father had poor judgment which he passed on to me through example and lack of parenting. It wasn't until I became and adult that I realized just how much 'self repair' I needed to do as a result. Now? If I'm around guns, I'm an effing drill sergeant when it comes to people following the rules. Cross me with your muzzle and I can promise you'll hear about it.
Still, the point remains. The portions of our brains that are responsible for decision making aren't matured until our mid-20s, and aren't fully developed until around 30. Kids, even kids who know and bow to the rules, aren't rock solid. They are weak when it comes to the approval of peers. They are impulsive. They lack judgment, and they lack the experience to fully recognize the potential for harm in their actions, or to understand the consequences, to themselves and others. If you have accessible guns around kids, many of them will follow the rules and not go near them. But many will, and they may do so without leaving any indication of it behind for parents to find. And a few will do great harm to themselves and others as a result. And whether a kid is a 'good' kid or not doesn't change that.
And at the same time, reasonable is a thing. Locking up your guns and ammo is expected and reasonable. Expecting kids to be safe crackers is not, even if it is technically possible. Taken to that extreme, there is no way to safely own a gun. Any precaution can be circumvented. You either take reasonable precautions, or you remove them entirely.
And yes, I would gladly take 'nobody gets guns' as an alternative solution, but we live in the real world, not fantasy land.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:38 am
by Little Raven
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:51 amExpecting kids to be safe crackers is not, even if it is technically possible.
Back in my day, there were only a few kids who had the patience to play around with locks enough to get good at cracking them.
These days? Any kid with Youtube can get around a staggering number of locks in just a few minutes. Man, what I could have done armed with that back in the day.
It's almost certainly for the best that youtube was not a thing when I was a kid.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:57 pm
by LawBeefaroni
The first behavioral report came Monday, when "a teacher in the classroom where he was a student saw and heard something that she felt was disturbing," Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard told Brianna Keilar on CNN's "New Day."
And they had a counseling session about it with school officials, and a phone call was left with the parents," he said.
Then on Tuesday -- hours before the shooting -- "a different teacher in a different classroom saw some behavior that they felt was concerning, and they brought the child down to an office, had a meeting with school officials, called in the parents, and ultimately it was determined that he could go back into class."
Parent called twice in two days. Did they ever stop to think, "wonder where that gun I bought one Friday is...."?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:09 pm
by malchior
That's a tough situation for everyone involved. They all have to be wondering if they added pressure that tipped him over the edge.
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:51 amExpecting kids to be safe crackers is not, even if it is technically possible.
Back in my day, there were only a few kids who had the patience to play around with locks enough to get good at cracking them.
These days? Any kid with Youtube can get around a staggering number of locks in just a few minutes. Man, what I could have done armed with that back in the day.
It's almost certainly for the best that youtube was not a thing when I was a kid.
And today's video is just the latest example.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:07 pm
by LawBeefaroni
They do make gun safe sensors. They will alert on any entry and can detect forced entry.
I have cameras on mine but am considering sensors as well as the kids get older.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:18 pm
by Little Raven
Yeah he regularly blows through gun safes in seconds. And everything he uses is cheaply and easily available to any teenager with a modicum of ambition.
Now I'll grant that neither of my teenagers has ever seemed to realize just what a gold mine of information they're sitting on with Youtube. They're content to watch Hazbin Hotel and endless videos about games/books/tv shows. Securing guns from them in THAT state is easy - you barely have to try. But assuming one of them suddenly developed a real desire to get to them?
I would probably notice if they ordered, say, a impressioning tool. But my parents would have noticed that too....which is why when I was being a devious teenager, I didn't have stuff like that shipped to the house. I would find a friend with parents that were significantly less involved (or later, I would go for older kids who were living independently) and make sure stuff was shipped THERE. I don't THINK my kids are doing anything like that, (my kids don't spend time at friends' houses the way I remember doing so as a kid) but then, my parents never thought I was doing anything like that, so it's hard to say.
But regardless, if we're going to follow Zax's reasoning, "You're either capable of and responsible for ensuring the guns aren't misused by minors in your household, or you're not." then you have to assume you're dealing with a motivated, malicious, smart teenager. Someone who knows how to use Google well, and leverage the information he finds there. Someone who is capable of putting together a modest amount of capitol. (say, 100 dollars) And someone who is willing and and able to lie cheerfully and confidently. That is going to be VERY hard to stop. Fortunately, most teenagers aren't that most of the time, but at least some of them turn into that at least some of the time.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:35 pm
by Blackhawk
And even if you have no guns, the neighbors do, and so do the parents of one or more of their friends.
So the only safe thing to do is get rid of all of them, right?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:36 pm
by Little Raven
One does suspect that would be the argument Zax would make.
Personally, I'm not convinced that even that would work in the rapidly approaching age of 3-D printing.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:06 pm
by coopasonic
I have a three foot long sword in my closet and it isn't really secured at all. It isn't really sharp, but it is quite heavy and would do some serious damage if wielded properly.
If my kid goes on a rampage with that, I will have to decide if I should be proud, angry, ashamed...
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:09 pm
by hepcat
Drive by swordings were up .00045 percent last year....
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:16 pm
by Isgrimnur
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:24 pm
by Little Raven
That's actually a very respectable showing for our old fashioned killing instruments in these modern times.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:27 pm
by LawBeefaroni
I know it's in jest, but swords are nowhere near the force multiplier that a firearm is.
hepcat wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:09 pm
Drive by swordings were up .00045 percent last year....
With all this talk about how kids are able to pull off the Italian Job thanks to YouTube I'd be curious about how many times kids just got ahold of a gun because it was secured in a dresser, a cardboard box, a closet shelf or an unlocked gun safe?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:35 pm
by Little Raven
$iljanus wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:31 pm
With all this talk about how kids are able to pull off the Italian Job thanks to YouTube I'd be curious about how many times kids just got ahold of a gun because it was secured in a dresser, a cardboard box, a closet shelf or an unlocked gun safe?
Like I said, data is sparse. The best I could find with some casual googling is "The study of incidents from 2008 through 2017 found that in nearly half of the shootings, the evidence indicates the firearm was easily accessible or was not stored securely." That would indicate that half of the time, the firearm WAS stored securely, but they don't say what "securely" means. Does that just mean stored in a locked drawer, or are we talking full Lawbeef style camera-sensor setup?
But as I said, we have plenty of stories about toddlers getting their hands on loaded guns, so clearly there's no shortage of unsecured weapons out there.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:42 pm
by hepcat
$iljanus wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:31 pm
With all this talk about how kids are able to pull off the Italian Job thanks to YouTube I'd be curious about how many times kids just got ahold of a gun because it was secured in a dresser, a cardboard box, a closet shelf or an unlocked gun safe?
Sadly, I believe just once in too many cases.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:13 pm
by stimpy
I actually thought it would be a way higher number.
We can still hit 1200 this year.
100 a month average is within reach!!!
I wish they broke down method, but I'd bet a vast majority are gun related.
My 10th-grade son texted me this morning: "We're hiding, school is in lockdown"
I replied immediately but didn't get another message for half an hour.
Later my boy let me me know that they were all OK. A student at a different program (but in the same school building) was a suspect in an assault elsewhere, and the police wanted to search for evidence before letting the rest of the students out into the hallways etc.
What strikes me is how normal it all felt. My kid told me they were hiding under the desks (as was procedure), and my first thought was "Well, that's the fourth time this year."
I mean, Fuck.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:14 pm
by UsulofDoom
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:51 am
I think I fired my first real gun when I was 8, and I was allowed to take a .22 out target plinking in the desert when I was about 9. I think I owned my first gun (a .22 rifle) when I was 14. Gun safety was a talk about the rules. Once, I think. And guns were always in the house, never locked, along with ammo.
Result: I did lots of idiotic things with guns as a kid and mostly just got lucky that I never seriously injured myself. Highlights include shooting out the street light that shined in the window at night and 'swatting' flies in the house with a rifle.
Disclaimer: I wasn't so much raised as I was fed and left to my own devices. My father had poor judgment which he passed on to me through example and lack of parenting. It wasn't until I became and adult that I realized just how much 'self repair' I needed to do as a result. Now? If I'm around guns, I'm an effing drill sergeant when it comes to people following the rules. Cross me with your muzzle and I can promise you'll hear about it.
Still, the point remains. The portions of our brains that are responsible for decision making aren't matured until our mid-20s, and aren't fully developed until around 30. Kids, even kids who know and bow to the rules, aren't rock solid. They are weak when it comes to the approval of peers. They are impulsive. They lack judgment, and they lack the experience to fully recognize the potential for harm in their actions, or to understand the consequences, to themselves and others. If you have accessible guns around kids, many of them will follow the rules and not go near them. But many will, and they may do so without leaving any indication of it behind for parents to find. And a few will do great harm to themselves and others as a result. And whether a kid is a 'good' kid or not doesn't change that.
And at the same time, reasonable is a thing. Locking up your guns and ammo is expected and reasonable. Expecting kids to be safe crackers is not, even if it is technically possible. Taken to that extreme, there is no way to safely own a gun. Any precaution can be circumvented. You either take reasonable precautions, or you remove them entirely.
And yes, I would gladly take 'nobody gets guns' as an alternative solution, but we live in the real world, not fantasy land.
If you truly believe this then how can we allow 18 year olds in the military, police, fire, life guards and EMS? How about running any heavy equipment that can cause injury such as tractors ,buldozers,18 wheelers, cranes or ships?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 pm
by Zaxxon
Little Raven wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:36 pm
One does suspect that would be the argument Zax would make.
.
No, just the ones that you personally own and are unwilling to take responsibility for.
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:35 pmSo the only safe thing to do is get rid of all of them, right?
Correct.
Though I wouldn't complain were this to be the solution.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:49 pm
by Blackhawk
UsulofDoom wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:14 pm
If you truly believe this then how can we allow 18 year olds in the military, police, fire, life guards and EMS? How about running any heavy equipment that can cause injury such as tractors ,buldozers,18 wheelers, cranes or ships?
To which part do you refer?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:35 am
by Little Raven
Zaxxon wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 pmNo, just the ones that you personally own and are unwilling to take responsibility for.
As I live in Texas, my responsibility vis-a-vie children and firearms is laid out by Sec. 46.13 of the Texas Penal Code.
Sec. 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD. (a) In this section:
(1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of age.
(2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the chamber.
(3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
My guns are stored unloaded in a locked container at all times, so I've always operated well within the law. However, as of September, all of the people who live in or have access to my house are 17 or older, meaning I no longer have to take such precautions.
I still will, though. My guns aren't for home defense.
UsulofDoom wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:14 pm
If you truly believe this then how can we allow 18 year olds in the military, police, fire, life guards and EMS? How about running any heavy equipment that can cause injury such as tractors ,buldozers,18 wheelers, cranes or ships?
To which part do you refer?
This part where anyone 30 to 25 and less is a kid that should not be in any responsible position that may or may not endanger others.
Still, the point remains. The portions of our brains that are responsible for decision making aren't matured until our mid-20s, and aren't fully developed until around 30. Kids, even kids who know and bow to the rules, aren't rock solid. They are weak when it comes to the approval of peers. They are impulsive. They lack judgment, and they lack the experience to fully recognize the potential for harm in their actions, or to understand the consequences, to themselves and others. If you have accessible guns around kids, many of them will follow the rules and not go near them. But many will, and they may do so without leaving any indication of it behind for parents to find. And a few will do great harm to themselves and others as a result. And whether a kid is a 'good' kid or not doesn't change that.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:22 am
by Blackhawk
Ah. There are multiple statements there.
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:49 pm
Still, the point remains. The portions of our brains that are responsible for decision making aren't matured until our mid-20s, and aren't fully developed until around 30.
Kids, even kids who know and bow to the rules, aren't rock solid. They are weak when it comes to the approval of peers. They are impulsive. They lack judgment, and they lack the experience to fully recognize the potential for harm in their actions, or to understand the consequences, to themselves and others.
That's two different (albeit related) statement. Our brains don't finish developing until around 30, and it is the portion related to decision making that develops last. That isn't something I think, it's just what the science says.
Do I think nobody under 30 should do anything that involves decision making or responsibility? Of course not. But I do think our definition of 'adult' is arbitrary, and that some decision making roles, where the impact of the decisions is significant (President, but possibly also police now that you mention it) should take that into account.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:45 pm
by Octavious
Well they are now charging both parents. I have a feeling they actually bought the gun for the kid. Which would be insane, but I would think that would be why they are getting charged. We shall see.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:48 pm
by LawBeefaroni
Octavious wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:45 pm
Well they are now charging both parents. I have a feeling they actually bought the gun for the kid. Which would be insane, but I would think that would be why they are getting charged. We shall see.
He posted a photo on Instagram with "his" new gun. He had possession of it.
Zaxxon wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 pmNo, just the ones that you personally own and are unwilling to take responsibility for.
As I live in Texas, my responsibility vis-a-vie children and firearms is laid out by Sec. 46.13 of the Texas Penal Code.
QED, amirite? US gun laws are what have us in an endless thread titled 'shootings.' It's true that you are fulfilling your legal obligations but I posit that you are not fulfilling your moral responsibility.
You have laid out here in detail that you believe your children could outwit your firearm precautions, but that they're sufficient anyway. You are specifically disclaiming responsibility for the safe use of your firearms.
I know we're not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine (insofar as our nation will never agree on the risk analysis of widespread firearm ownership). I believe that 'ensuring safe use' is a very high bar. If you're already aware of ways that minors in your own household can bypass your precautions, they're clearly insufficient on their face, in my view (which again, is 'some guy on the internet'). You're not required to agree.
An Oakland County prosecutor says a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching ammunition on his cellphone during class, notified administrators, & contacted Crumbley's parents. His mom wrote to his son, "LOL. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught." Ethan Crumbley was apparently drawing pictures of guns and people with bullet wounds hours before he opened fire in school. Crumbley's parents were also notified about this and didn't seem particularly worried about it.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:09 pm
by Freyland
And this moment my 3 kids' high-school is in lockdown and evacuation for a bomb threat. Likely just some malcontent looking to get out of school on the heels of the shootings, but I continue to be disappointed in humanity.
An Oakland County prosecutor says a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching ammunition on his cellphone during class, notified administrators, & contacted Crumbley's parents. His mom wrote to his son, "LOL. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught." Ethan Crumbley was apparently drawing pictures of guns and people with bullet wounds hours before he opened fire in school. Crumbley's parents were also notified about this and didn't seem particularly worried about it.
Zaxxon wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 pmNo, just the ones that you personally own and are unwilling to take responsibility for.
As I live in Texas, my responsibility vis-a-vie children and firearms is laid out by Sec. 46.13 of the Texas Penal Code.
QED, amirite? US gun laws are what have us in an endless thread titled 'shootings.' It's true that you are fulfilling your legal obligations but I posit that you are not fulfilling your moral responsibility.
You have laid out here in detail that you believe your children could outwit your firearm precautions, but that they're sufficient anyway. You are specifically disclaiming responsibility for the safe use of your firearms.
I know we're not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine (insofar as our nation will never agree on the risk analysis of widespread firearm ownership). I believe that 'ensuring safe use' is a very high bar. If you're already aware of ways that minors in your own household can bypass your precautions, they're clearly insufficient on their face, in my view (which again, is 'some guy on the internet'). You're not required to agree.
Morality is fungible. Much like preventing car theft, there is a scale of inconvenience. If my car is more inconvenient to steal than the one next door, that is likely sufficient. If a car thief wants MY car, there is little I can do to prevent its theft, even were I to make it undriveable. The same goes for firearms. If a firearm exists and someone wants it badly enough, there's little anyone can do to prevent someone gaining access with enough time.
An Oakland County prosecutor says a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching ammunition on his cellphone during class, notified administrators, & contacted Crumbley's parents. His mom wrote to his son, "LOL. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught." Ethan Crumbley was apparently drawing pictures of guns and people with bullet wounds hours before he opened fire in school. Crumbley's parents were also notified about this and didn't seem particularly worried about it.
Take your LOLs in prison, hopefully forever.
Fuck. Them.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:20 pm
by Octavious
Ya they are f'd. No wonder why they told the not to talk to the cops. Quality family.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:29 pm
by RunningMn9
Little Raven wrote:I still will, though. My guns aren't for home defense.
Samesies. My gun is locked in a gun safe, unloaded, with a trigger lock, and all of the magazines are emptied.
If someone breaks in, I’d need like 20 minutes to be ready to respond. When the kids are gone, maybe I’ll feel differently, but in the meantime, this makes sense to me.
At the moment it’s not for self-defense - although I live in NJ, so that’s probably always going to be a problematic option.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:33 pm
by Smoove_B
By the time your kids are moved out, you could be like my parents - with their old, weak fingers that are completely unable to load a magazine.
But yes, that's my core issue with all this. If you are a gun hobbyist, it seems like you could add multiple layers of protection to your gun(s) to make it extremely difficult (or nearly impossible) to gain functional access. But if you believe that you need a gun to be loaded and ready to use at all times? I don't know how you can possibly store it in such a way as to make it "safe". And I think that's my issue with the report from a few days ago - that they don't detail what exactly was involved in deterring access. There's a world of difference between storing the gun parts and ammo in multiple safes, removing the firing pin, trigger, locks, etc... vs keeping a loaded gun in a bedside drawer that has a generic lock or clasp that can be defeated with a paperclip.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:43 pm
by Octavious
With the way things are now I sometimes wonder if I need one. Then I remember that I'd epically fail if I needed it anyway. I'm just going to move to a deserted island.
Little Raven wrote:I still will, though. My guns aren't for home defense.
Samesies. My gun is locked in a gun safe, unloaded, with a trigger lock, and all of the magazines are emptied.
If someone breaks in, I’d need like 20 minutes to be ready to respond. When the kids are gone, maybe I’ll feel differently, but in the meantime, this makes sense to me.
At the moment it’s not for self-defense - although I live in NJ, so that’s probably always going to be a problematic option.
My carry gun is always already to go but then it's rarely at home when I'm not and if it's not on me it's locked in a safe. Everything else is locked up unloaded in a gun cabinet or safe.
