Octopus Overlords

GreenGoo wrote: I'm gonna bail for awhile, get a good night's sleep and see if things make sense in the morning.

FWIW, nothing makes sense anymore.

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:46 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:27 pm If you're trying to confuse people as to your identity, you borrow from multiple sources. Unless your goal is to frame Pence, of course.

Sure. Have the people doing the analyzing identified any other likely culprits (i.e. other sources being borrowed from)? Or are you suggesting the anon op-ed is misleading us into thinking it's Webster? Or what? Or is your comment just a statement of fact with no specific reference to the op-ed? Like, advice for all the future leakers out there?

I'm not being a dick (well, only because I'm confused), if I'm missing something then tell me please.

I think my point was that people are focusing too much on 'lodestar', a single example from the piece. I think. I'm on four hours of sleep. For all I know, I meant the exact opposite. Purple monkey dishwasher.

Like I said, I'm struggling to make heads or tails of anything. Had a busy, hectic, seriously stressful day so I'm reeling mentally to begin with.

I'm just trying to understand what people are posting, and that is proving beyond me tonight.

Don't sweat it.

Just shut up and quit.

Pretty much.

I agree. They aren't being a hero. They're doing what he can do with the express condition of not making the party look bad or inconveniencing themselves.

If there truly are that many of them, and they truly see the risk that Trump poses, and they are as highly placed as has been suggested, then there are other solutions that are legal, constitutional, and far more effective then playing Illuminati. They just happen to result in the party looking bad for a few years, and maybe losing power until their rep recovers.

But then again, that's happening anyway.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:56 pm Just shut up and quit.

Pretty much.

I'm just gonna come right out and say that I didn't write that. Although I like the style.

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:00 pm
How is does this implicate that the NYT is being used for a criminal syndicate's politics?

I get everything else, I think.

The Wire analogy was to a criminal syndicate, ergo the Trump cabinet is a criminal syndicate, and leaking to the NYT somehow relates to Stringer Bell taking over Barksdale's operation. Barksdale was a flamboyant character like Trump. That's how I read it, anyway. I might have misread the would-be meme.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:56 pm Just shut up and quit.

Pretty much.

Yeah, not so much. I get the main message and agree with it (these asshats should have the courage of their convictions and confront Trump in the light of day or quit), but I hate the conclusion:

Enough of this stuff. Stand up in the light of day and tell your stories. All of them, right from the beginning. Admit that what you're confronting now is the end result of 40 years of conservative politics and all the government-is-the-problem malfeasance you've been imbibing since you were wingnuts in swaddling. The fire's licking at your ankles at last. Come out of the cupboards, you boys and girls. None of you are heroes.

We all know Trump is not a conservative. It’s crap to say that 40 years of conservative politics inexorably led to Trump. That’s counterfactual BS for the base.

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:27 amWe all know Trump is not a conservative. It’s crap to say that 40 years of conservative politics inexorably led to Trump. That’s counterfactual BS for the base.

It isn't that Trump is a conservative. The viewpoint -- which I personally think will win in the long-term -- is that the conservative strategic arm for lack of a better term embarked on a long-term effort to undermine trust in the Government and the media. That it got away from them and brought us Trump was an unintended consequence of all that. To paraphrase the old retail mantra, they broke it so they own it.

msteelers wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:19 pmWe have methods to deal with a president like Trump. Secretly working against him from inside the administration is not one of them.

After reading this, my first thought is someone trying to emulate Pence to get Trump to zero in on him in hopes of having him removed and replaced with someone less zealous and more rational. I think it's a public move in a private chess match inside the White House. It could be that "the adults in the room" aren't seeing any pushback from Pence, and are afraid of what they see every single day. So someone emulates his idioms. Knowing someone will pick up on it. Hoping Trump will get rough with Pence, and maybe - just maybe - replace him.

It's the only thing that makes sense to me in the complete shitstorm of the current situation, assuming it's all real - and I have a hard time believing it's not.

Yes. We're having a constitutional crisis. Doesn't Pence need to initiate replacement with the senior cabinet? If he's not acting, wouldn't someone in the senior cabinet like him replaced in hopes of getting someone who would? Secretly working against him is all that's left. If this person quits, that's one less vote to get Trump removed if/when someone sane decides to.

It's all sounding as bad as some Alex Jones shit and I find myself resistant to believing it because it's so horrible. It's the only way it makes sense to me, though, if I'm going to believe it. I know Trump is an unhinged ego-maniacal maniac. You only have to read his tweets to see it. That gives everything else credibility... so I end up falling off the fence into belief.

Someone inside wants Pence out so they can get someone new to hopefully trigger the Constitutional provision to oust Trump before he slams his tiny hands down on the shiny red button that will kill us all.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:56 pm Just shut up and quit.

Pretty much.

I agree but I thought of one scenario where I partially accept this play. That would be if the person had a plan to come forward in say a week or two. Staying anonymous allows us to focus somewhat on the Constitutional crisis portion of the message.

If the person had written it under their own name it would likely have just been focused on individual destruction instead of the actual message. While we now have the predictable effort to unmask them, it is still the sideshow at the moment.

However this is probably extremely unlikely. In the end, we don't see true political bravery anymore. That is perhaps ultimately our problem. We seem to have lost that sense of duty that people in prior generations had in our leadership. Sure they got something out of it but at least there was an element of selflessness in it. We even saw that in Obama to an extent. However, it seems this shit system drives or keeps those types away so I have little doubt this was another viper playing another parlor game with our nation.

Paingod wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:06 am Someone inside wants Pence out so they can get someone new to hopefully trigger the Constitutional provision to oust Trump before he slams his tiny hands down on the shiny red button that will kill us all.

Bear in mind that Trump can't fire Pence. The only way to get rid of him before the end of the term would be through impeachment by the House and Senate, and that's not going to happen because of an anonymous op-ed in the NYT. At most, Trump can pick a different running mate in 2020.

Max Peck wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:45 am

Paingod wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:06 am Someone inside wants Pence out so they can get someone new to hopefully trigger the Constitutional provision to oust Trump before he slams his tiny hands down on the shiny red button that will kill us all.

Bear in mind that Trump can't fire Pence. The only way to get rid of him before the end of the term would be through impeachment by the House and Senate, and that's not going to happen because of an anonymous op-ed in the NYT. At most, Trump can pick a different running mate in 2020.

Then I'm at a complete loss. Crazy town, nothing makes sense.

All I have left is hoping the "Blue Wave" isn't a joke and we see millions of people getting off their asses to vote when they've been apathetic before. It took Trump to get me out, and maybe it'll push more people up against him as well.

I've been puzzling over my long standing connection between Alabama football and how it's tied to a Democrat in the White House. Particularly how the last couple years have been an outlier.

Well.... now I'm thinking it's no accident that Alabama has just discovered Tua, which is an incredible talent, at the moment all of this stuff is blowing up surrounding Trump.

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:27 amThat’s counterfactual BS for the base.

You think that Trump is an anomaly and not the result of decades of stoking fear among the base along with 40-50 years of strident anti-intellectualism?

RunningMn9 wrote:

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:27 amThat’s counterfactual BS for the base.

You think that Trump is an anomaly and not the result of decades of stoking fear among the base along with 40-50 years of strident anti-intellectualism?

I'm thinking the seeds were planted during the Gingrich era and the Contract On America.

As for this "member of the resistance", this person just made it more difficult for the more responsible people within the White House to try and keep shit from blowing up. Hope the future book deal is worth it.

And just invoke the 25th Amendment already. I don't care about having another Republican in place but I do care about having a working government. In the end, having a self absorbed, intellectually stunted , egoist really doesn't work for leading more than a reality show.

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 am

RunningMn9 wrote:

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:27 amThat’s counterfactual BS for the base.

You think that Trump is an anomaly and not the result of decades of stoking fear among the base along with 40-50 years of strident anti-intellectualism?

I'm thinking the seeds were planted during the Gingrich era and the Contract On America.

As for this "member of the resistance", this person just made it more difficult for the more responsible people within the White House to try and keep shit from blowing up. Hope the future book deal is worth it.

IMO that is the inflection point where they got in the drivers seat but they had to lay groundwork for it. I think history will peg the great unraveling beginning in the aftermath of Nixon.

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 am As for this "member of the resistance", this person just made it more difficult for the more responsible people within the White House to try and keep shit from blowing up. Hope the future book deal is worth it.

Yeah, I almost believe that the author is actually a Bannon or Javanka loyalist out to trigger a purge of the remaining old-guard GOP within the administration. I just can't quite convince myself that anyone on the NYT editorial board (presumably there must be at least one key person on the board who knows the author's identity in order for them to print the op-ed in the first place) would choose to be complicit in such a deception.

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 am As for this "member of the resistance", this person just made it more difficult for the more responsible people within the White House to try and keep shit from blowing up. Hope the future book deal is worth it.

And just invoke the 25th Amendment already. I don't care about having another Republican in place but I do care about having a working government. In the end, having a self absorbed, intellectually stunted , egoist really doesn't work for leading more than a reality show.

Seems to me that the point of the op-ed was to indicate that, even though several high-ranking figures see the 25th as a solution, they lack either the will or the numbers to pull it off. Presumably the op-ed is intended to sway Republican senators towards impeachment when the time comes. Whoever the author, this might just be the first rather than the last time they speak up.

Many see the signs pointing to DNI Dan Coats as the author. He is at the end of a career dedicated to national security, he has openly criticized Trump's approach, and he was very close to John McCain. I don't think he would be in it just for a book deal.

Holman wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:27 amMany see the signs pointing to DNI Dan Coats as the author. He is at the end of a career dedicated to national security, he has openly criticized Trump's approach, and he was very close to John McCain. I don't think he would be in it just for a book deal.

He is a solid choice but I think it'll be someone NSC adjacent but not directly on it.

msduncan wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:55 am I've been puzzling over my long standing connection between Alabama football and how it's tied to a Democrat in the White House. Particularly how the last couple years have been an outlier.

Well.... now I'm thinking it's no accident that Alabama has just discovered Tua, which is an incredible talent, at the moment all of this stuff is blowing up surrounding Trump.

OK, I'll bite.

Skinypupy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:56 amOK, I'll bite.

I'm going with fractured reality. One Tweet too far, and *SNAP*

MSD has long had a tongue in cheek impression that whoever is in the WH has a direct effect on how his football team, Alabama, does. And vice versa.

Alabama just acquired a new super star rookie (I'm guessing) which means the Dems are going to do well in the upcoming elections.

The entire thing is premised on the idea that he can't have both things he cares about at the same time.

Either Republicans in power or Alabama doing well.

Either/or. He can't have both.

... so - He's predicting a blue wave of some sort.

I believe he is referring to a casual (as opposed to causal) correlation where the Crimson Tide has their best seasons while a Democrat is in the White House. If the future looks bright for 'Bama, then it follows, as surely as night follows day, that there are dark times ahead for Trump.

Paingod wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:31 am ... so - He's predicting a blue wave of some sort.

Roll Tide!

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 amI'm thinking the seeds were planted during the Gingrich era and the Contract On America.

Gingrich was part of the crop that had been cultivated, not the seeds going into the ground. The anti-intellectualism began during the 60s. Reagan was the first real fruit of that effort. And it got exacerbated by the rise of the Christian coalition within the GOP. And then got weaponized with talk radio through the 90s and 00s. All of that effort led to the selection of Palin for McCain's Veep. And losing to a black, Kenyan muslim caused them to completely lose their grip on reality with the rise of the Tea Party, which took incredible pride on prioritizing belief and faith over knowledge.

OF COURSE it culminated in a complete piece of garbage like Trump winning the GOP primary and then stumbling his way past HRC. This is the base they have been working to create for decades through a 24/7 campaign centered around fear and outrage.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:30 amThe entire thing is premised on the idea that he can't have both things he cares about at the same time.

This. And it's perfectly natural for a sports fan to feel this way. I will give him 10 straight Alabama national championships if it allows this nightmare to end.

RunningMn9 wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:40 am

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 amI'm thinking the seeds were planted during the Gingrich era and the Contract On America.

Gingrich was part of the crop that had been cultivated, not the seeds going into the ground. The anti-intellectualism began during the 60s. Reagan was the first real fruit of that effort. And it got exacerbated by the rise of the Christian coalition within the GOP. And then got weaponized with talk radio through the 90s and 00s. All of that effort led to the selection of Palin for McCain's Veep. And losing to a black, Kenyan muslim caused them to completely lose their grip on reality with the rise of the Tea Party, which took incredible pride on prioritizing belief and faith over knowledge.

OF COURSE it culminated in a complete piece of garbage like Trump winning the GOP primary and then stumbling his way past HRC. This is the base they have been working to create for decades through a 24/7 campaign centered around fear and outrage.

We watched the tragedy unfold
We did as we were told
We bought and sold
It was the greatest show on earth
But then it was over

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:30 am MSD has long had a tongue in cheek impression that whoever is in the WH has a direct effect on how his football team, Alabama, does. And vice versa.

Alabama just acquired a new super star rookie (I'm guessing) which means the Dems are going to do well in the upcoming elections.

The entire thing is premised on the idea that he can't have both things he cares about at the same time.

Either Republicans in power or Alabama doing well.

Either/or. He can't have both.

Ah, now I get it.

This. And it's perfectly natural for a sports fan to feel this way. I will give him 10 straight Alabama national championships if it allows this nightmare to end.

Amen to that.

The summary of the anonymous op-ed piece in the morning Axios email had some interesting nuggets of information.

He should be paranoid. In the hours after the New York Times published the anonymous Op-Ed from "a senior official in the Trump administration" trashing the president, two senior administration officials reached out to Axios to say the author stole the words right out of their mouths.

"I find the reaction to the NYT op-ed fascinating — that people seem so shocked that there is a resistance from the inside," one senior official said. "A lot of us [were] wishing we’d been the writer, I suspect ... I hope he [Trump] knows — maybe he does? — that there are dozens and dozens of us."

Why it matters: Several senior White House officials have described their roles to us as saving America and the world from this president.

A good number of current White House officials have privately admitted to us they consider Trump unstable, and at times dangerously slow. But the really deep concern and contempt, from our experience, has been at the agencies — and particularly in the foreign policy arena. For some time last year, Trump even carried with him a handwritten list of people suspected to be leakers undermining his agenda.

"He would basically be like, 'We’ve gotta get rid of them. The snakes are everywhere but we’re getting rid of them,'" said a source close to Trump. Trump would often ask staff whom they thought could be trusted. He often asks the people who work for him what they think about their colleagues, which can be not only be uncomfortable but confusing to Trump: Rival staffers shoot at each other and Trump is left not knowing who to believe. Officials describe an increasingly conspiracy-minded president:

"When he was super frustrated about the leaks, he would rail about the 'snakes' in the White House," said a source who has discussed administration leakers with the president. "Especially early on, when we would be in Roosevelt Room meetings, he would sit down at the table, and get to talking, then turn around to see who was sitting along the walls behind him." "One day, after one of those meetings, he said, 'Everything that just happened is going to leak. I don’t know any of those people in the room.' ... He was very paranoid about this."

The Times Op-Ed reinforces everything Trump instinctively believes.

That last line is why the op-ed was probably a disastrous idea. You've confirmed the worst of Trump's instincts, and he now has something to point to in order to justify some of his extreme actions.

RunningMn9 wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:40 am

$iljanus wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:08 amI'm thinking the seeds were planted during the Gingrich era and the Contract On America.

Gingrich was part of the crop that had been cultivated, not the seeds going into the ground. The anti-intellectualism began during the 60s. Reagan was the first real fruit of that effort. And it got exacerbated by the rise of the Christian coalition within the GOP. And then got weaponized with talk radio through the 90s and 00s. All of that effort led to the selection of Palin for McCain's Veep. And losing to a black, Kenyan muslim caused them to completely lose their grip on reality with the rise of the Tea Party, which took incredible pride on prioritizing belief and faith over knowledge.

OF COURSE it culminated in a complete piece of garbage like Trump winning the GOP primary and then stumbling his way past HRC. This is the base they have been working to create for decades through a 24/7 campaign centered around fear and outrage.

Exactly this, but I'd argue on a slight tangent that the anti-intellectualism was a pernicious secondary factor to the schism that began during the civil rights era. It was a tool to emphasize the wedge between southern democrats and the progressive elements of the party rather than the root of the split.

Unfortunately, pushing him over the edge might be the only thing that gets us to the end game.

RunningMn9 wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:43 am

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:30 amThe entire thing is premised on the idea that he can't have both things he cares about at the same time.

This. And it's perfectly natural for a sports fan to feel this way. I will give him 10 straight Alabama national championships if it allows this nightmare to end.

He can have 15 if he promises never talk about any of them.

msduncan wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:55 am I've been puzzling over my long standing connection between Alabama football and how it's tied to a Democrat in the White House. Particularly how the last couple years have been an outlier.

Well.... now I'm thinking it's no accident that Alabama has just discovered Tua, which is an incredible talent, at the moment all of this stuff is blowing up surrounding Trump.

I am curious what you make of "all of this stuff" surrounding Trump.

Jolor wrote:

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:35 pm Tough to disagree with Frum here...

This is a Constitutional Crisis.

+ 1 & in full agreement

I'll give Frum an incomplete. What he fails to mention is that the GOP gave up on any sense of Duty years ago, and instead opted for cowardice.

Especially anyone in the Trump administration.

I guess loyalty tests and Gom Jabbars are now on the table for all staffers. Perhaps a
Voight-Kampff test with pictures of children being separated from parents as well.

Kurth wrote:

El Guapo wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:56 pm Just shut up and quit.

Pretty much.

Yeah, not so much. I get the main message and agree with it (these asshats should have the courage of their convictions and confront Trump in the light of day or quit), but I hate the conclusion:

Enough of this stuff. Stand up in the light of day and tell your stories. All of them, right from the beginning. Admit that what you're confronting now is the end result of 40 years of conservative politics and all the government-is-the-problem malfeasance you've been imbibing since you were wingnuts in swaddling. The fire's licking at your ankles at last. Come out of the cupboards, you boys and girls. None of you are heroes.

We all know Trump is not a conservative. It’s crap to say that 40 years of conservative politics inexorably led to Trump. That’s counterfactual BS for the base.

Actually, it's true. The GOP has been increasingly irresponsible with regards to the business of governing for decades, favoring demagoguery and divisiveness over duty at almost every turn.

This article gets to the heart of the issue which Frum completely ignores.

msteelers wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:07 amThat last line is why the op-ed was probably a disastrous idea. You've confirmed the worst of Trump's instincts, and he now has something to point to in order to justify some of his extreme actions.

I agree - that is why I don't think it was Coats or anyone at his level. It was probably a higher level staffer -- someone inexperienced or dumb enough not to look down the board and see the damage this would do.

El Guapo wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:28 am
I am curious what you make of "all of this stuff" surrounding Trump.

I know I can't speak for MSD but I'll resist recalling his comments about "all this stuff" from the past 6-12 months (of which there have been few).

El Guapo wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:28 am

msduncan wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:55 am I've been puzzling over my long standing connection between Alabama football and how it's tied to a Democrat in the White House. Particularly how the last couple years have been an outlier.

Well.... now I'm thinking it's no accident that Alabama has just discovered Tua, which is an incredible talent, at the moment all of this stuff is blowing up surrounding Trump.

I am curious what you make of "all of this stuff" surrounding Trump.

Here, I'll save you the trouble.

"Hey Rip, :fistbump:"