Octopus Overlords

Sure, but there's a difference between "let's coordinate to warp in together in close formation" and "let's perform a calculation from light years away (or whatever) to insert ourselves between two ships as a shield at the exact moment our ally is being fired upon".

I guess they could have sent the Titan their precise location, but it seems unlikely that happened as they were in the middle of of as fight. Of course, I may be misremembering the scene... I don't care enough to find it and view it again. It's just an interesting discussion. It seems like there should be a more significant margin of error when dealing with limited information. But it wouldn't be "cool" to show that, no. They never have before. Exiting warp and then having to close distance at impulse for several minutes. It just struck me as being particularly unbelievable in this circumstance.

My personal favorite Star Trek thing is when they’d teleport crew somewhere that was too small for them to be standing up on arrival…so they’d freaking squat.

You better effing believe that if I’m being teleported someplace that could potentially result in my head possibly being halfway into sheet rock, I’m making chief petty officer bob get a goddamn ruler out and positioning me in THE EXACT GODDAMN WAY I should be.

hepcat wrote: There's still time for emo Borgs, goofy ass time travel and excruciatingly long dream sequences to make an appearance.

Also enough time to have an old timey holodeck performance episode as well; hopefully something in the Victorian era, and of course the holodeck safeties will have to malfunction.

Spoilers, Picard

Was Picard the father?

Ah, I was being sarcastic - I actually assumed that was posted in the wrong forum and was unrelated.

Spoiled.

I stopped watching aleady and not surprised that non-mystery is explained. I have a different question. I had a brief discussion about this Friday with a friend based on my assumption about paternity. He wasn't sure.

Yeah, they made a point of mentioning Jack grew up in England.

Watched episode 3 last night.

hepcat wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:44 pm I will agree with you that Captain Shaw of the Titan is a horribly written character. It's no wonder they got an actor known for his comedic villain roles to play him.

I'm sure the fact that Todd Stashwick worked with Terry Matalas on 12 Monkeys had nothing to do with that casting.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 pm Yeah, they made a point of mentioning Jack grew up in England.

Got it. I assume that was just a quick writing hack to account for the idea that they hired a British actor.

They also mentioned he’s allergic to batteries. I assume that was tossed in to assure Guapo that they wouldn’t do THAT again.

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:39 pm They also mentioned he’s allergic to batteries. I assume that was tossed in to assure Guapo that they wouldn’t do THAT again.

Is he allergic to all batteries, though, or just those common in 21st century Los Angeles parking lots? I'm picturing a scene where he travels back in time to the 1950s and eats car batteries in a 1950s St. Louis parking lot.

Well, they didn’t specifically say D cells….so….

I’m still kind of enjoying this final season of Picard. Go figure. This last episode felt even more like a TNG episode….even down to the ridiculously convoluted techno babble that saves the day.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Was gonna say it felt the most like a TNG episode. Part of that is the different crewmembers working towards a solution like they would a mystery, but also in the way that they won the day.

But holy hell does Captain Shaw ever have some anger issues.

I love Captain Shaw. He’s super damaged, but for good reasons. He’s a dick to our heroes, and even worse he’s basically always right. A wonderful foil, and watching him very slowly get won over by Picard is a treat.

I just found it a little hard to swallow that someone with apparently zero people skills would rise through the ranks to command his own ship. He was written like a character in Mean Girls initially. I like that actor though, so it wasn’t his fault. I just think they could have given the character a little subtlety.

This last episode was fan service, but it didn’t feel forced or inorganic. I’m still surprised at how much I’m enjoying this final season of Picard. I wish it had been like this all along.

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:42 pm I just found it a little hard to swallow that someone with apparently zero people skills would rise through the ranks to command his own ship.

Yeah, that's where I'm at too. This kind of character wouldn't get very far in TNG, and it goes back to one of my complaints with command characters in recent Trek I had posted about earlier. There's just so much cynicism and distrust in current-day Trek. Every Starfleet officer Picard has encountered since the first season, ie the Admiral at the SF Headquarters for example, have been so uptight and angry at the world. Like I get it, life is hard, but chill!

At least this season of Picard is showing some optimism, by pushing against the darkness, but it's the kind of thing that should have been part of Picard from the beginning. Shaw just comes across as someone who enjoys being a dick just for the heck of it, as that one scene between Picard, Riker, and Shaw shows. He likes rubbing his misery in everyone's faces and wants to see their discomfort.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:18 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:42 pm I just found it a little hard to swallow that someone with apparently zero people skills would rise through the ranks to command his own ship.

Yeah, that's where I'm at too. This kind of character wouldn't get very far in TNG, and it goes back to one of my complaints with command characters in recent Trek I had posted about earlier.

He would fit right in with plenty of characters in TNG, including the Lt. Commander Hobson of the USS Sutherland. Commander Shelby also had a large heap of obnoxiousness to her at the start. To say nothing of plenty of badmirals the 1701-D encountered. I imagine that like Shelby or Hobson, an encounter with the TNG folks will soften his edges, but because this is modern TV it isn't happening in 42 minutes. He has been obnoxious, he's also been right about basically everything.

And also:

So something I've been thinking about in the back of my mind recently: what does the average Federation citizen think about the captains of the various Star Trek shows? They're all legends within Starlet, more or less, but the average human or Vulcan going about their day to day lives probably isn't that aware of them, and to the degree that they are their impressions are probably pretty different than ours as the audience.

James T. Kirk was largely unknown to the general public during the 2260s, though perhaps there was a bit of fanfare when the NCC-1701 completed its five year mission successfully. He was promoted to Admiral, but such promotions don't get a lot of press. The average Federation citizen probably hadn't even heard of Kirk until 2271, when he saved the Earth from V'Ger. At that point he was probably hailed as a hero, had a surge in fame, and probably some of his adventures during the 2260s likely became more widely known. And then he probably sunk back into obscurity until 2285, when the news broke that he stole the Starship Enterprise, disabled the Federation flagship, and flew his stolen ship into a quarantined sector, with later revelations that he killed a bunch of Klingons and took relations between the Federation and the Empire to their lowest point since the war in the 2250s. But then, he saves Earth from a giant space probe again and is basically exonerated by the Council and given a clunker of an older model of starship to tool around in. But then he appears in the news in 2293 when he's somehow involved in the assassination of the Klingon Chancellor, adding drama to an already stressful situation about Klingons being relocated into Federation space, but then he rescues the Federation President from another assassination attempt. Who is this guy? Why is he always surrounded by drama? And then about a year later there's reports of him dying on yet another Enterprise trying to rescue some aliens. At which point the average Federation resident was probably a bit sad that someone famous had died, but didn't dwell on it because Kirk's constant swirl of drama was probably exhausting to think about. Who knows if the general public ever learns about him coming back from the Nexus in 2371 and dying again.

Jean-Luc Picard spent most of his career toiling away in obscurity, winning friends and allies within Starfleet, but not really being all that visible to the public. Maybe there were some news reports of the Stargazer being destroyed by an unknown alien race, but nothing that would really catch the public imagination. When he's made the Captain of the 1701-D, there was likely a press release, and folks shrugged and were like "okay, he sounds like exactly the kind of person who would get that job" and not think about him again ... until January 2367 when the Borg attack Earth and this Starfleet captain seems to be helping them. Sure, he then is brought back, but his role in the defeat of the Borg is subtle enough that the average Federationer just remembers Picard as this guy who was somehow involved with the slaughter at Wolf 359 and the terrifying days when everyone thought Earth was going to be assimilated. He doesn't really show up in the public consciousness again until the next Borg attack in 2373, when it's not all that clear what happened but he definitely helped save Earth this time. So maybe the general public warms up to him, which likely lasts until the early 2380s, when suddenly he's all over the news regarding this plan to bring Romulans into Federation space to save them from the destruction of Romulus, which is hugely controversial and leads to some very violent situations — and then in 2385 the androids building Picard's rescue fleet go nuts (thanks, Romulan fanatics) and tons of people die on Mars and Starfleet's main shipyard is destroyed. Picard gets caught up in the swirl about this, as we've seen in the new show, and burns his career in the ground fighting to keep the Romulan rescue plan moving, despite the public hating it. By the time we get to the newest season in 2401, Picard has restored his reputation within the fleet. But the average Federation citizen? To the degree they know who he is, they associate him with the Borg attacks, the Federation Day disaster, and the Romulan crisis. They probably don't like him.

Benjamin Sisko was likely broadly unknown to the general Federation public, despite his fame on Bajor and his role as Admiral Ross's adjutant. His daring moves to liberate Deep Space Nine, his role in the fall of Cardassia, and his death on Bajor would certainly be mentioned in history books, but were unlikely to get the kind of news coverage that would have led to much personal fame for Sisko. Sad, because Sisko rocks.

Katherine Janeway probably first came to public notice in news reports about the loss of the Voyager in 2371, and then again when the ship was declared lost in 2373. But then in 2374 Starfleet would announced that the Voyager wasn't lost — it was in the Delta Quadrant! Any good media organization would spray this all over the front pages. Stories about the families and friends of the crew learning their loved ones were (mostly) still alive would have been everywhere. Starfleet would be harangued for updates. Janeway and her ship would have become a symbol of Starfleet's grit and skill, and she'd be famous. When she brought the ship home in 2377, she'd have been a hero (as shown by the fact that she was promoted all the way to Vice Admiral by 2379). Starfleet would play on her popularity by designing its cadet training holograms to look like her in the 2380s.
Jonathan Archer would be, by far, the most famous captain of any Star Trek series. Not only did he lead Earth's first deep space mission, not only did he respond to and end the Xindi crisis, not only did he help foil a very public terrorist attempt to prevent the formation of the Coalition of Planets, he likely played a large role in the Romulan War of the late 2150s, and, according to a biography seen briefly on screen in the future, Archer became the first President of the Federation in 2161. Some of our later captains probably went to high schools named after Jonathan Archer. Like any politician, he probably had his detractors, but there's every reason to believe that despite being featured in the most unloved show, he was actually the most beloved captain them all. Weird.

Gabriel Lorca was a run of the mill Starfleet officer who would not have been well-known to the general public, and the mysterious circumstances around his death likely never made any news given the general chaos of the Klingon War.

Saru was a run of the mill Starfleet officer who would not have been well known to the general public in 2258.
Michael Burnham was a run of the mill Starfleet officer, probably occasionally profiled in the news in connection to her relationship with her adopted father Sarek but otherwise not well known in 2256. The scandal regarding the start of the Klingon War would have likely brought a great deal of negative press attention on her (and Sarek), and her mysterious apparent death in early 2258 would likely have been noted. She probably retained a fairly negative public opinion in death, given that her prosecution in 2256 would have been a lot more visible than her role in ending the war without destroying Qo'nos in 2257.
Carol Freeman really needs to not let reporters come aboard the Cerritos, because she has managed to make herself both very public and, likely, rather unpopular.

Christopher Pike was an incredibly well respected captain amongst his colleagues, but the NCC-1701 wasn't involved in the Klingon War, and so far nothing we've seen about him on screen seems like the sort of thing that would have lent him the sort of public profile necessary for the average Federation citizen to know much about him, unless they were really into Starfleet minutia. But to the degree that anyone knows about him, they probably thought he was great, which he was.

Honestly? I think most of them would fall into one of a few categories.

Some would be known the way we know an important General today (Powell, Schwarzkopf.) This is where you find your Siskos, Pikes, and (sometimes) Kirks. Famous, you know they did something important, but you probably didn’t discuss them over dinner.

And then you have your Neil Armstrongs/Buzz Aldrins. I think you'd find Archer here, probably Janeway, maybe Kirk. They're historical figures, but also folk heroes that most people know by name.

And then you have your unknowns. History books mention them, and people have probably heard their name in a news story now and then, but they have to stop and remind themselves why that name sounds familiar...

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:11 am Honestly? I think most of them would fall into one of a few categories.

Some would be known the way we know an important General today (Powell, Schwarzkopf.) This is where you find your Siskos, Pikes, and (sometimes) Kirks. Famous, you know they did something important, but you probably didn’t discuss them over dinner.

I think Kirk and Picard might fit here. Sisko was mostly Ross's right hand man -- who was Powell's right hand man? Or Eisenhower's? Pike has done nothing that would have been particularly of note to the public on screen, yet. Hopefully we have many more seasons of SNW for him to do so.

And then you have your Neil Armstrongs/Buzz Aldrins. I think you'd find Archer here, probably Janeway, maybe Kirk. They're historical figures, but also folk heroes that most people know by name.

Yes, definitely Archer and Janeway fall here. Maybe Kirk. And perhaps Picard, but probably not in a positive way.

It gets complicated since where each fits would depend entirely on who you ask. Kirk, for instance. His exploits lasted what, 30 years? And how do the kids who learned about Picard in school feel about him in the Picard era (he is probably as famous for his diplomatic exploits as he is for his battles), compared to those who watched the Borg closing in on Earth with Locutus at the helm?

Also, this is Star Trek. Humanity has 'evolved.' I think, given the quasi-utopia they present Earth as, people would be more likely to hear the whole story rather than just a biased spin on it. They'd be more likely than us to see the 'big picture' on things like Locutus and Kirk's drama, partially because a Star Trekish media would be more likely to report the real events, and the Federation would be less likely to hide every detail. Of course, that's just conjecture, and would vary wildly based on the real-world era of the show. Roddenberry's society was more utopian (although not infallible) than the post-Roddenberry TNG era society, and Picard's society seems to have devolved into being almost as shitty as ours. Roddenberry's normal people would accept the Captains' failings and recognize their heroism. Current Trek normal people would probably get their information FoxSpaceNews, which would have them believing that Picard is running a Pakled prostitution ring out of Boothby's toolshed.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:03 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:18 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:42 pm I just found it a little hard to swallow that someone with apparently zero people skills would rise through the ranks to command his own ship.

Yeah, that's where I'm at too. This kind of character wouldn't get very far in TNG, and it goes back to one of my complaints with command characters in recent Trek I had posted about earlier.

He would fit right in with plenty of characters in TNG, including the Lt. Commander Hobson of the USS Sutherland. Commander Shelby also had a large heap of obnoxiousness to her at the start. To say nothing of plenty of badmirals the 1701-D encountered. I imagine that like Shelby or Hobson, an encounter with the TNG folks will soften his edges, but because this is modern TV it isn't happening in 42 minutes. He has been obnoxious, he's also been right about basically everything.

And also:

Spoiler:

It's probably pretty common for survivors of Wolf 359 to really, really hate Jean-Luc Picard, like Shaw or Sisko on DS9.

Well, he would maybe fit in, but I do think the characterization would be quite different, ie not so much an A-hole with a grudge. He's bordering being unlikable to me. And yes, maybe he's right, but the way he treats Picard and Riker do make me wonder how he treats the rest of his crew. I do think the whole Locutus angle could have been explored more subtly, and it's actually something I wish would have been brought up during the first season. Doing it now, kind of reinforces how disconnected the rest of the series has been from their own universe.

I think it’s very clear that his crew find him unpleasant, and prefer Seven to him. He’s in the same vein as Jellico there, but worse. He’s a bad leader, but likely a good worker who got promoted to his level of incompetence.

Like when they let Tori start piloting the ship and she kept running it into planets and Romulan warbirds.

It's quite likely Seven was put there to keep a watch on him as Starlfeet likely knows how difficult he can be. But I think there's likely a chance he'll be won over in the end. He just seems ungrateful at times though, even when they've saved him and his ship.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:03 pm
And also:

Spoiler:

It's probably pretty common for survivors of Wolf 359 to really, really hate Jean-Luc Picard, like Shaw or Sisko on DS9.

I will admit, that was a great thing to include in his backstory. It really helps lessen my belief that someone who would snub visiting admirals and captains like he did in his first appearance wouldn’t still be working in the engine room. My guess (hope) is that he’s not a dick to everyone.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:50 pm Nerdy analysis

I agree with almost all of this (and love the analysis) except that I think you're underestimating what Sisko's likely fame would be. Sisko would 100% have been hyped up in Federation wartime propaganda as a Hero of the Federation. He was on the front line almost the entire time, and played a major role in leading the war effort, including in the recapture of DS9 and the ultimate fall of Cardassia. I don't think we have a great sense of what exactly the media looks like in the 24th century, but Sisko would definitely be lionized in whatever wartime vids would have been consumed by a population eager for news about the war.

Honestly I think he'd be second only to Archer in terms of his fame and popularity among the Federation populace. The one wrinkle is that I don't really know what would have been known or understood about his disappearance (did even Federation leadership know?). I imagine it would be covered as "mysteriously disappeared shortly after the war", with the leading stories being that he was likely assassinated by a disgruntled Dominion operative or something.

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:50 pm
Katherine Janeway probably first came to public notice in news reports about the loss of the Voyager in 2371, and then again when the ship was declared lost in 2373. But then in 2374 Starfleet would announced that the Voyager wasn't lost — it was in the Delta Quadrant! Any good media organization would spray this all over the front pages. Stories about the families and friends of the crew learning their loved ones were (mostly) still alive would have been everywhere. Starfleet would be harangued for updates. Janeway and her ship would have become a symbol of Starfleet's grit and skill, and she'd be famous. When she brought the ship home in 2377, she'd have been a hero (as shown by the fact that she was promoted all the way to Vice Admiral by 2379). Starfleet would play on her popularity by designing its cadet training holograms to look like her in the 2380s.

Spoiler:

In 2401, she's still in Starfleet, and is likely still viewed by the public as a beloved swashbuckling hero.

Ask Tuvix how he feels about Janeway. Oh wait...you can't.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:56 pm

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:50 pm
Katherine Janeway probably first came to public notice in news reports about the loss of the Voyager in 2371, and then again when the ship was declared lost in 2373. But then in 2374 Starfleet would announced that the Voyager wasn't lost — it was in the Delta Quadrant! Any good media organization would spray this all over the front pages. Stories about the families and friends of the crew learning their loved ones were (mostly) still alive would have been everywhere. Starfleet would be harangued for updates. Janeway and her ship would have become a symbol of Starfleet's grit and skill, and she'd be famous. When she brought the ship home in 2377, she'd have been a hero (as shown by the fact that she was promoted all the way to Vice Admiral by 2379). Starfleet would play on her popularity by designing its cadet training holograms to look like her in the 2380s.

Spoiler:

In 2401, she's still in Starfleet, and is likely still viewed by the public as a beloved swashbuckling hero.

Ask Tuvix how he feels about Janeway. Oh wait...you can't.

Bringing Neelix back to life was a crime against the Galaxy.

She straight up executed that poor fella without a care. I think she may even have been eating a hoagie while injecting the lethal dosage.

She did it between cups of coffee, and spent the whole time thinking about coffee. Because Janeway liked coffee, and hated Tuvix.

I really really LOVE the new Titan ships. The neo Constitution III Class . Its beautiful and a great throwback to the original ship class. I wish it was a bit more powerful and not so weak as shown in battles. But I still love it. Something about it just brings up the love for it.

Sorta like a Constitution and an Excelsior had a baby.



Why Star Trek: Picard's New Main Ship Looks Like the Classic Enterprise

“I saw this incredible starship designed by digital artist Bill Krause called the U.S.S Shangri-La, which was a Star Trek: Motion Picture-era class ship with a half saucer on top and an Excelsior-inspired Next Generation curve on the bottom, which I thought was really interesting,” Terry Matalas, Picard’s showrunner, recently told Variety. “I said to production designer Dave Blass, ‘I think the Titan should feel something like this.’”

The Titan is a capital ship, but the Federation doesn't really make battleships. They make ships that are exploration or science vessels first...ships of war after that. I mean, they do have some (Defiant, for example) but for the most part, the Federation doesn't design ships for war. They design them for peace.

But they've just come out of a decade long war. So some of what they've learned should make its way into the Coni3 ships. Have some toughness yet look retro back to the age of peace and exploration.