Octopus Overlords

/edit - top of page edit to add quotes.

pr0ner wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:30 am

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:30 am A few hundred more lawsuits might help. Call them out on every lie, and force all of their dirty laundry into public view.

Sometimes society can address what the government cannot.

I personally wouldn't expect it to work (beyond some major outcry from cable subscribers when Fox News starts demanding carriage increases from the major cable providers soon), but this is the way. Society has to address it, because government cannot.

I suppose it depends on how you define 'work.' It won't destroy them, no, but I think it could impact their reach. If society can make it so that Fox News is looked at in the same light as the National Enquirer (Oh no! Bat Boy stole my alien baby!), then their ability to influence decent people who think that if news is on the TV must be legitimate will be compromised.

Enough public call-outs, defamation, libel, and slander suits, and their credibility will be openly damaged. I mean, Dominion didn't sink them (and it never was), but it gave them a very public shaming that undoubtedly changed a few peoples' minds (those of us who were disappointed in the settlement weren't disappointed that they didn't get destroyed, we were disappointed that the process that was doing damage was cut short.) Do that enough times and it could make a dent.

In a perfect world? Their reputation gets bad enough that networks start to drop their content in self-defense.

I disagree. The founders participated in nasty attack newspapers, lied about each other, and even fought duels to the death. They were aware of how nasty politics could get — and certainly were aware of demagogues. They assumed that people could agree and eventually uncover the truth.

Social media of today is the social shaming and mob justice of the past. It’s nasty, brutish and can be abused to terrorize minorities.

A look at a laid off journalist who started a local news site, and how covering a County going full nutballs is going:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... sta-county

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

Um…wow.

Tucker Carlson OUT at Fox News.



Edit: that's a sneaky BAM from Skinypupy there.

I'm going to speculate that this is less a mutual agreement on leaving and more Fox showing Tucker the door.

Wow best news I've seen in a while. I mean I'm sure he will find somewhere else to grift, but it's nice to see him go from the main site of disinformation.

Wonder if he will head to OAN or the other far right network? They’d want his audience.

Grifman wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:49 am Wonder if he will head to OAN or the other far right network? They’d want his audience.

A lot of his audience would have no way of watching him on OAN or many other far right networks.

Maybe Newsmax but they don't have the coverage Fox has, either.

Honestly when I look at Newsmax it seems less crazy than Fox most of the time. Oan is batshit crazy land.

pr0ner wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:48 am I'm going to speculate that this is less a mutual agreement on leaving and more Fox showing Tucker the door.

Sure seems that way. If it was mutual you would expect Carlson to have the opportunity to do an on-air sign off.

It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

Personally, I think it’s because today is my birthday!

Sorry - busy weekend.

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:08 pm

stessier wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:27 pm

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:57 am

stessier wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:52 am

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:47 am

stessier wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:42 am The other side would say the exact same thing about CNN or MSNBC. In a country with Free Speech, this is the price we pay. We just have to get better at the "more speech to combat the misinformation" part.

There is unfortunately far too much evidence that this approach likely doesn't work at scale. At the very least there is a decent case that the 1st Amendment as we practice it is incompatible with the information age. Democracies might need to establish hard guardrails for misinformation to survive. Maybe someone will solve for it in our framework but the hopes are looking pretty dim. Unfortunately I think we have a high risk of becoming the example why guardrails need to exist.

I'm unaware of anyone who has come up with guardrails that don't land the country in the exact same place.

Are you unaware about most of Europe's rules on media participation? What Fox did is illegal in nearly every nation there.

And yet Brexit happened because of lies.

This feels like a non sequitur. For this to be relevant there'd have to be some link or allegation about how news organization lied intentionally about facts related to Brexit. Bad ideas and lies were thrown about generously but that was more in the realm of "normal politics".

Your thesis, if I understood, was that Fox had to be stopped from lying because it hurt democracy. That Europe had laws in place that did such things and their democratic life was better for it. I say Brexit is a fine example that your thesis sucks. People lied about the effects of Brexit and the populace was duped all without the help of news organizations. Constraining news organizations did nothing but take away their ability to express themselves in ways that would have been protected here. That is not a fair trade. It's not the organizations that are the problem - it's the people.

And there is a ground swell of fascism in Germany and France.

You're going to need to talk this one through because...I think there is decent evidence this isn't accurate. At least the way I weigh it.

The most right-wing party National Rally got ~40% of the vote in the last election. However, National Rally has been significantly *moderating* itself over the last few years. To the point that National rally is far more centrist than the Republican party. It is even considered by some to be to the left of the Conservative party in Canada. Tough to call that fascist lean. There are some hard-liner elements but it's fairly light.

And in Germany the hard-right parties get something like ~12% of the vote there in 2021 which is admittedly not great. They also had that incident where they arrested some extremists. But that was ~30 people - hardly a large movement. In any case, even if you lump in CDU which is center-right and again far to the left of the GOP you'd still be 5% short of a majority. Not a great case for rising fascism there either.

You see moderating. I see a wolf hiding in sheep's clothing. How long until they look at that 12% and think the majority could be theirs if they moved more in that direction. MAGA shows that it can happen in the blink of an eye.

All while they have substantially less freedom to express viewpoints because of those media participation rules.

These experts think otherwise. The US may nominally allow lots of viewpoints to be expressed, but we've fallen pretty far down the press freedom rankings for years.

Did you actually read what they wrote? I went through a half dozen in comparison to the US - it is not exactly a scientific analysis worthy of further study. It seems to be more an indicator of mono-cultures vs. multi-cultures.

And Lemon now out at CNN



Networks doing a prisoner swap?

This is turning into a much better day than I had expected!

Carlson fired from Fox makes the Dominion settlement much more palatable.

And I grew to really dislike Don Lemon at CNN. I’m sure he’s a nice guy (and some of the stuff he did with his Mom was downright touching), but he was so sanctimonious and self-righteous, he kind of made me want to punch him in the face at times.

Not that I’m optimistic that this is signaling any real change in these networks. But this is nice to see in any event.

Lemon/Carlson Crossfire show on Newsmax starting May 1st.

Octavious wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:52 pm Lemon/Carlson Crossfire show on Newsmax starting May 1st.

That would be too funny!

stessier wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:03 pmYour thesis, if I understood, was that Fox had to be stopped from lying because it hurt democracy. That Europe had laws in place that did such things and their democratic life was better for it. I say Brexit is a fine example that your thesis sucks. People lied about the effects of Brexit and the populace was duped all without the help of news organizations. Constraining news organizations did nothing but take away their ability to express themselves in ways that would have been protected here. That is not a fair trade. It's not the organizations that are the problem - it's the people.

Not really the thesis. My thesis is that responsible oversight could have dissuaded Fox from the most outrageous behavior. Or more expansively prevented the consolidation that gave them so much power in the first place (as explained below).

You see moderating. I see a wolf hiding in sheep's clothing. How long until they look at that 12% and think the majority could be theirs if they moved more in that direction. MAGA shows that it can happen in the blink of an eye.

Maybe. But there are predictions based on data and predictions based on hunches. I prefer the former.

Did you actually read what they wrote? I went through a half dozen in comparison to the US - it is not exactly a scientific analysis worthy of further study. It seems to be more an indicator of mono-cultures vs. multi-cultures.

I am aware of what they wrote. Their rankings to me are based on a framework that reflects a reality that a free press doesn't exist solely because the government can't interfere. It exists when opinions aren't constrained by governments, private organizations, intimidation/violence against reporters, and misinformation. That is what they are weighing. It isn't about mono vs multi-culture.

I think it's illustrative to decompose why I think we are in ~40s range based on their rankings. They seem to be pointing at a real problem which is media concentration. We've allowed private companies to control speech and ignore the spread of disinformation. This is due to the government taking a complete hands off approach to their one power here - preventing monopoly power. That was probably the most fundamental front line defense if we accept that regulating content is off-the-table. First in radio, then in OTA tv markets, and then cable. All along we had warnings that they had begun injecting overwhelming amounts of misinformation and flat out lying into the public sphere. "We" ignored it to the point the political system broke down. However, now we're seeing reporters occasionally attacked/bullied by police, intimidated by far-right thugs, etc. We're seeing a wholesale attack upon truth here in the US and in the end our approach didn't work.

I don't think there is any realistic argument we did not fail at this and my point all along is that holding onto our values so tightly they ignore reality is ultimately what has potentially doomed us. Again we had a system that worked much like nation's in Europe until the Reagan era where they rolled back the fairness doctrine. Only one piece of the puzzle but the start of a wholesale effort to build a propaganda function. Subsequently the government through the last few decades watched as media oligarchs like Murdoch, Redstone, Eisner, et. al. compressed the vast majority of public speech into 5-6 companies. We also saw local news organizations bought up, consolidated, gutted, and left to slowly wither away.

Unagi wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:58 am

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

Personally, I think it’s because today is my birthday!

Kurth wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:51 pm This is turning into a much better day than I had expected!

Carlson fired from Fox makes the Dominion settlement much more palatable.

This was my first reaction then...I thought it through and I was reminded that Fox got in trouble chasing after the MAGA audience. They've been signaling they'd like a different flavor of authoritarianism in the form of DeSantis. I expect a replacement more in line with the 'big GOP money' view on the world and attempts to see if they can use the next year to chase the herd back into proper fascism form.

It's like Fox had to do something to uphold their *cough* dedication to journalistic standards, instead of an admission.

Well now Tucker is free to be TFG's press secretary in January of 2025.

(yes, I felt gross even typing that)

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:29 pm Well now Tucker is free to be TFG's press secretary in January of 2025.

(yes, I felt gross even typing that)

VP?

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:54 pm

Oh god, that's perfect.

OK, I'll be the idiot.

Who is that?

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:11 pm OK, I'll be the idiot.

Who is that?

In-joke for watchers of HBO's Max's Succession.

malchior wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:08 pm

Kurth wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:51 pm This is turning into a much better day than I had expected!

Carlson fired from Fox makes the Dominion settlement much more palatable.

This was my first reaction then...I thought it through and I was reminded that Fox got in trouble chasing after the MAGA audience. They've been signaling they'd like a different flavor of authoritarianism in the form of DeSantis. I expect a replacement more in line with the 'big GOP money' view on the world and attempts to see if they can use the next year to chase the herd back into proper fascism form.

Except, to me, chasing the MAGA herd "back into proper fascism form" is a significant improvement. Again, for the record, I can't stand DeSantis and oppose nearly all of his policies and ALL of his personality, but he does not pose the existential crisis to this country that Trump and MAGA do.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

While it is my Birthday, I speculate that it was part of the Dominion settlement. Perhaps even something like Carlson was supposed to either say something on the air, or Fox would need to let him go (on my Birthday). But no one knows the details of the settlement, right?

Unagi wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

While it is my Birthday, I speculate that it was part of the Dominion settlement. Perhaps even something like Carlson was supposed to either say something on the air, or Fox would need to let him go (on my Birthday). But no one knows the details of the settlement, right?

Part of? Probably not, but a consequence or? Definitely.

I suspect it's more about the future. The Stratomatic Smartmatic stuff is coming up soon, and it's looking more and more like Trump will be the GOP candidate for 2024, so getting rid of the guy now before all that happens is probably a wise choice if they want to avoid even further lawsuits. That 787 million probably stung more than we think it did. Sure they're rich, but that amount still had to hit the board where it hurts.

Pyperkub wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:40 pm

Unagi wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am It feels crazy asking this about someone who is in large part responsible for his network paying a $787 million judgment but...why is he being forced out now? Is this coming more from him or from the network?

While it is my Birthday, I speculate that it was part of the Dominion settlement. Perhaps even something like Carlson was supposed to either say something on the air, or Fox would need to let him go (on my Birthday). But no one knows the details of the settlement, right?

Part of? Probably not, but a consequence or? Definitely.

Yeah, 'a consequence of' was more-or-less already clear - but El Guapo was wondering what the reasoning behind the timing and obvious awkward and suddenness of it all... and I just wonder if there was some detail of the Dominion settlement that did not settle with Carlson, that he pushed back on and gave them no choice (but perhaps face further legal scrutiny, etc.)

Or, perhaps this is about some other dirt that is coming down the river that Carlson is connected to.

per unnamed sources, it came direct from Rupert (tweets above may indicate this, but I haven't clicked all of them to check):

A Fox News representative had no other details on Carlson’s exit. People familiar with the situation who were not authorized to comment publicly said the decision to fire Carlson came straight from Fox Corp. Chairman Rupert Murdoch.

Carlson’s exit is related to the discrimination lawsuit filed by Abby Grossberg, the producer fired by the network last month, the people said. Carlson’s senior executive producer Justin Wells has also been terminated, according to people familiar with the matter. A Fox News representative would not comment.

Murdoch is also said to be concerned over Carlson’s coverage of the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, in which the host has promoted the conspiracy theory that it was provoked by government agents.

Octavious wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:49 am Wow best news I've seen in a while. I mean I'm sure he will find somewhere else to grift, but it's nice to see him go from the main site of disinformation.

Yeah, somebody else will give him a megaphone and pay him to use it, and Fox News will replace him with someone just as reprehensible. Tucker Carlson isn't a supply problem, he's a demand problem.

Kraken wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:38 pm

Octavious wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:49 am Wow best news I've seen in a while. I mean I'm sure he will find somewhere else to grift, but it's nice to see him go from the main site of disinformation.

Yeah, somebody else will give him a megaphone and pay him to use it, and Fox News will replace him with someone just as reprehensible. Tucker Carlson isn't a supply problem, he's a demand problem.

I expect he'll get on the Trump rally/SuperPAC grift bandwagon soon.

Anyone heard from Glenn Beck lately?