Octopus Overlords

Paingod wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:50 am If money is the entry point to an award, then the award has no value.

It has no value under a president with no values.

LordMortis wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:07 pm

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:55 am https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 6488142848

The prospect of Presidential Harassment by the Dems is causing the Stock Market big headaches!

Wreckers and Saboteurs interfering with the Five-Year Plan!!

What does that mean? The market has been wild all year and dropping since is tax give away paid dividends/did stock buy backs wore off and on today's dip (at this second) it's still up since Tuesday and Wednesday.

So I'm trying to find the context. The last big dip happened on the 8th of October which seemed to be in large part a tech sector correction and earnings re-alignments based on Tariff predictions being figured in projections.

Such a lothesome human being.

It means that the market going up is because everyone knows he's going to do a great job and also him doing a great job in general. The market going down is not in any way his fault, and is probably the lousy Dems doing it.

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm This is how our President is spending Veteran's Day, btw. Holed up in the White House and Tweeting.

Yup. The WH has confirmed that Trump will not be visiting Arlington today.

To be fair, though, The Weather Channel does say it's raining in DC.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:12 pm To be fair, though, The Weather Channel does say it's raining in DC.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:55 am https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 6488142848

The prospect of Presidential Harassment by the Dems is causing the Stock Market big headaches!

STFU, snowflake!

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:12 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm This is how our President is spending Veteran's Day, btw. Holed up in the White House and Tweeting.

Yup. The WH has confirmed that Trump will not be visiting Arlington today.

To be fair, though, The Weather Channel does say it's raining in DC.

Remind me again why the military overwhelmingly supports him? He sends them by the thousands to pick up trash at the southern border for what equates to a political stunt, can't be bothered to show even the slightest respect for them at multiple ceremonies, he pays lip service to veterans but never actually does anything, he jokes about their highest honors (Purple Hearts), etc., etc.

I just don't get it.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:12 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm This is how our President is spending Veteran's Day, btw. Holed up in the White House and Tweeting.

Yup. The WH has confirmed that Trump will not be visiting Arlington today.

To be fair, though, The Weather Channel does say it's raining in DC.

For a guy who, despite his many, many, MANY flaws, tends to have a good read on optics, not going to Arlington today was a colossally bad PR move.

Sepiche wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:41 pm For a guy who, despite his many, many, MANY flaws, tends to have a good read on optics, not going to Arlington today was a colossally bad PR move.

So you're saying *this* is the line that will wake up the American people? Because I don't believe it for a second. Kaepernick kneels for what amounts to American ideals and he's denigrated. Which would lead you to believe that at least the appearance of patriotism matters if nothing else, but then drumpf refuses to honor America's fallen heroes, and I have little faith it will mean ANYTHING to his current supporters.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Sepiche wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:41 pm For a guy who, despite his many, many, MANY flaws, tends to have a good read on optics, not going to Arlington today was a colossally bad PR move.

So you're saying *this* is the line that will wake up the American people? Because I don't believe it for a second. Kaepernick kneels for what amounts to American ideals and he's denigrated. Which would lead you to believe that at least the appearance of patriotism matters if nothing else, but then drumpf refuses to honor America's fallen heroes, and I have little faith it will mean ANYTHING to his current supporters.

Uh, no. Still a colossally bad PR move.

Sepiche wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:58 pm Uh, no. Still a colossally bad PR move.

Ok, sure. But then if it doesn't screw up his public relations, how is it a bad public relations move? The people already critical of him will have new fodder to chew over, and those who support him won't be influenced in the slightest.

I fully agree that it should be an extremely bad PR move. It should be catastrophic. The Right would have lost their freakin' minds if Obama did any of this, and quite frankly, most of the Left too. And rightly so.

Rabid loyalty to the brand above all else seems to be the major attribute of the GOP and it's supporters.

So I guess I'm asking how can a move be bad PR when the PR meter won't move for anyone on either side? I'm not trying to be pedantic.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:03 pm So I guess I'm saying how can a move be bad PR when the PR meter won't move for anyone on either side?

I personally believe every story like that is another shot at getting through to the moderate potential voters who don't really pay attention to the news. It's chipping away at the edges.

That said, I find this more interesting as another sign that something's off in the White House that we're not hearing a lot about yet. It's the type of optics Drumpf usually excels at exploiting and the fact he fumbled it so badly makes me wonder what's been going on that we're not seeing that could have him that off his game.

Sepiche wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:11 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:03 pm So I guess I'm saying how can a move be bad PR when the PR meter won't move for anyone on either side?

I personally believe every story like that is another shot at getting through to the moderate potential voters who don't really pay attention to the news. It's chipping away at the edges.

Awesome response.

Thank you for telling me your thoughts on it. I truly hope you are correct. I want to believe that you are. I fear you are not. Chipping away at the edges is exactly what this administration has done to my optimism. That said, succumbing to fatalism is not really an option.

Sepiche wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:11 pm That said, I find this more interesting as another sign that something's off in the White House that we're not hearing a lot about yet. It's the type of optics Drumpf usually excels at exploiting and the fact he fumbled it so badly makes me wonder what's been going on that we're not seeing that could have him that off his game.

Wife independently concluded that Trump isn't going to live to see a second term, which I had decided to believe a few weeks ago. Maybe he's having a health crisis. One can hope.

GreenGoo, we just had a midterm election which showed the result of this chipping away at Trump's image. The Democratic wave didn't materialize out of thin air.

YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:27 pm GreenGoo, we just had a midterm election which showed the result of this chipping away at Trump's image. The Democratic wave didn't materialize out of thin air.

Low hanging fruit from the past 2 years. Anyone who still supports him isn't going to flip over Arlington.

YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:27 pm GreenGoo, we just had a midterm election which showed the result of this chipping away at Trump's image. The Democratic wave didn't materialize out of thin air.

Meh. It was certainly a good election for Dems, and I have had it explained to me why it was better than it appeared to be. Still, it's hardly the nation-wide condemnation of the current administration that I associate with the term "Blue Wave".

Honest question. Was this election more of a mandate than other mid-term elections that resulted in Dem gains?

I get that races that aren't usually close were much closer than they had any right to be. I guess I don't understand the difference between GOP candidates winning in a landslide vs. GOP candidates winning in a narrow race. Are you expecting even more progress in 2020? Why?

Even that's not what I mean. I get that people that voted for Drumpf are turning away. It just seems to be such small quantities that it doesn't really change the nation's path ahead, I think. I guess that's the definition of chipping away though, so I guess I'm letting my pessimism overshadow reality a bit.

Kraken wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 pm Wife independently concluded that Trump isn't going to live to see a second term, which I had decided to believe a few weeks ago. Maybe he's having a health crisis. One can hope.

I swear this is true.

My wife, tears in her eyes, confessed to me that she wanted drumpf to die. She's a nurse, and she's a good one, with a good heart and a desire to help people in anyway she can. Wishing someone would die is the antithesis of her core being and she was devastated by the realization.

He's a monster, not the least of which is because he's made my wife betray her ideals and that has hurt her deeply.

I on the other hand, have been hoping he would choke on a chicken bone since he had the gall to consider himself a worthy candidate for the presidency in 2007. I certainly don't speak for all Canadians, but he's a horrific monster for many of us (just like for some Americans, I assume) and betrayer of everything that makes mankind worthy of admiration, and he embraces all the things that make mankind a fetid pool of filth. I expect this from authoritarian countries. And I don't think Western countries are idyllic paradises of human thought. I do think we *try* to do what's right when we can and are motivated by what's right, even if realpolitik is necessary. Drumpf is actively undermining that with every word and action. He's a cancer on your democracy. I have been in a state of shell-shock going on two years now. Sure he's your leader and not mine, but our countries are very tightly tied together, even if many people (both Americans and Canadians) are not fully aware of the extent. Watching you descend into madness is terrifying.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:29 pm

YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:27 pm GreenGoo, we just had a midterm election which showed the result of this chipping away at Trump's image. The Democratic wave didn't materialize out of thin air.

Meh. It was certainly a good election for Dems, and I have had it explained to me why it was better than it appeared to be. Still, it's hardly the nation-wide condemnation of the current administration that I associate with the term "Blue Wave".

Honest question. Was this election more of a mandate than other mid-term elections that resulted in Dem gains?

I get that races that aren't usually close were much closer than they had any right to be. I guess I don't understand the difference between GOP candidates winning in a landslide vs. GOP candidates winning in a narrow race. Are you expecting even more progress in 2020? Why?

Even that's not what I mean. I get that people that voted for Drumpf are turning away. It just seems to be such small quantities that it doesn't really change the nation's path ahead, I think. I guess that's the definition of chipping away though, so I guess I'm letting my pessimism overshadow reality a bit.

This is Dem's largest wave since Watergate, and they did it against basically the worst map they've ever faced. They also did with the nation's economy running very strong and with no real drag on the GOP *except* the president.

Most of the Dem's House gains happened as a result of double-digit shifts against the GOP. Some of the GOP holds were very close when they would normally have been completely secure.

A GOP seat won by 30 points in 2016 and 5 points in 2018 still tells a story.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm This is Dem's largest wave since Watergate, and they did it against basically the worst map they've ever faced. They also did with the nation's economy running very strong and with no real drag on the GOP *except* the president.

Oh really? See, that's what I was asking. This is probably the very first time I have ever paid attention in any real way to mid-term elections, and even now, I'm not down in the guts of it. I mean, I followed along and paid attention, somewhat at least, but the ramifications are lost on me, I guess.

I did know the map was stacked against them, and that they did well despite that. Maybe I underestimated just how badly things were stacked against them, and the success was huger than it appeared.

Wouldn't messing with healthcare be a GOP drag? Or maybe those chickens haven't come home to roost yet? I realize that many people think they want Obamacare gone, so it's not a drag for those people, but they are hanging a lot of people out to dry it seems, and I would think that would be a drag on the GOP.

I also believe I understand the power of a strong economy, even when I keep hearing how the working man is not getting his cut, so I understand that would hinder the magnitude of a blue wave.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm Most of the Dem's House gains happened as a result of double-digit shifts against the GOP, sometimes close to 20% or even more. Some of the GOP holds were very close when they would normally have been 30 points secure.

edit: Mothereff, wrong person. Damn it. I thought I was talking to Defiant.

edit2: Thanks for expanding. I thought I was following along during the election, but nothing I read expressed the results in those terms, and I'm not familiar enough to connect the dots myself. At least not all of them.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:58 pm
So thanks from me personally on your efforts to keep the forum informed during elections. Past and present.

Just doing my duty as a 'Merican citizen!

We are all stressed. I haven't had a good night's sleep in two years, and I'm starting to worry about drinking too much.

I entirely agree about the chicken bone and more.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Kraken wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 pm Wife independently concluded that Trump isn't going to live to see a second term, which I had decided to believe a few weeks ago. Maybe he's having a health crisis. One can hope.

I swear this is true.

A touch of pneumonia would explain his sudden fear of rain. The real tell will be his golf schedule.

Kraken wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:03 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Kraken wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 pm Wife independently concluded that Trump isn't going to live to see a second term, which I had decided to believe a few weeks ago. Maybe he's having a health crisis. One can hope.

I swear this is true.

A touch of pneumonia would explain his sudden fear of rain. The real tell will be his golf schedule.

I still think it's pique and panic.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:02 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:58 pm
So thanks from me personally on your efforts to keep the forum informed during elections. Past and present.

Just doing my duty as a 'Merican citizen!

We are all stressed. I haven't had a good night's sleep in two years, and I'm starting to worry about drinking too much.

I entirely agree about the chicken bone and more.

First, I thought I was talking to defiant. I'm so sorry for the confusion. Second, I am thankful for your insight and comments, so please don't feel bad because I'm an idiot.

I'm embarrassed, but I do really value your input as well.

DAMMIT!!!



I did feel over-praised, tho.

GreenGoo wrote:Still, it's hardly the nation-wide condemnation of the current administration that I associate with the term "Blue Wave".

The country is too divided to see an overwhelming condemnation of any President. But that's been the case even before Trump. American politics hinges on a very narrow middle section that flips back and forth between two locked-in sides.

I think what the mid-terms proved is that our system of democracy is still functional, even in the face of these overwhelming odds. That's a very good thing. In a time where we have a President who is trying to do everything in his power to break it.

It's certainly not by any stretch of the imagination a reason to despair. Remember - this is the FIRST opportunity since Trump has been elected for the American people to do anything about him. And they came through. Now we have to hope they can do it again in 2020.

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm I still think it's pique and panic.

See, I really hope so. I'm not above letting some of my uglier emotions loose once in awhile, and while nature taking it's course would be great, having him suffer beforehand would be even better. He needs to understand just what a loathsome toad he is before he dies, but if that's not an option, paranoia, fear and an emotional breakdown would suffice.

Honestly, if he simply understands that the American people see through the entire persona he's carefully cultivated over decades, that might be enough. He needs to be forcefully made to face just how little worth his life has been and that everyone knows it. That he is a petty, small, stupid, pitiable creature and that's what's going on his tombstone (or footnote in the history books). He values other peoples' opinions about himself so much that it might be enough to kill him. And I'm ok with that.

PS. I might be petty and small too, but I don't suffer from delusions that I'm worthy of your presidency (or our prime ministership). I understand my limitations and don't destroy peoples' livelihoods when they don't appreciate how awesome I am. You fucking monster. Ahem. *cough*

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:06 pm DAMMIT!!!



I did feel over-praised, tho.

I had hoped I had gotten the edit in before you read it.

I'm really very sorry. But honestly I value your input as well! I can't apologize enough. Not that I gave you praise that you're not worthy of, rather, that I gave you praise meant for someone else, and all that that entails.

I could have just let it stand, but I do try to be honest whenever possible, even if the outcome is less than optimal.

I'm not sure if it's because I'm Canadian or what, but I feel horribly embarrassed and apologetic for any discomfort that you might have experienced from the whole thing.

Again, sorry.

You're a valued member of the community too!

No apology (other than those required by Canadian law and custom) necessary!

YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:07 pm The country is too divided to see an overwhelming condemnation of any President. But that's been the case even before Trump. American politics hinges on a very narrow middle section that flips back and forth between two locked-in sides.

See, I knew that, but my view, if I haven't been clear, is that drumpf is an exception. An exceptional exception. That some Americans can look at him and not see that (it took me weeks to accept that rational, good people can think he's a good person despite all evidence to the contrary) is incredibly vexing. He's not business as usual. He's...an atrocity that has no business being the leader of busboys, let alone a billion dollar empire. Leader of the free world should never have even been on the table.

YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:07 pm It's certainly not by any stretch of the imagination a reason to despair. Remember - this is the FIRST opportunity since Trump has been elected for the American people to do anything about him. And they came through. Now we have to hope they can do it again in 2020.

I'm not despairing. Not more than usual anyway. I understood that the midterms were a success, but apparently I underestimated just how much of a success they were.

Thanks to everyone for clarifying what the election results mean in general terms. For the record, I'm not alone as at least one or two people expressed dismay at the results earlier in the thread as well. I didn't see it as they did, but neither did I see it as much of a success. I know better now.

The idea of Trump dying in office and turning into some sort of martyr is nauseating to me. That and a somewhat competent Mike Pence in charge. So I hold out hope that Trump lives long enough to see his life torn down around him.

msteelers wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:38 pm The idea of Trump dying in office and turning into some sort of martyr is nauseating to me. That and a somewhat competent Mike Pence in charge. So I hold out hope that Trump lives long enough to see his life torn down around him.

A crushing defeat in 2020, a wave of indictments, and 20 years in prison would do it for me.

My emotions and thoughts based on them are not rational. I absolutely agree that Pence might do more substantive damage than drumpf. Somehow having a competent captain sinking the boat feels better though.

As much as I talk, a crushing defeat in 2020 would probably be enough, as long as he left with his tail between his legs, and I knew that he understood exactly what that crushing defeat meant. No bullshit twitter crap about how things were stolen, or other justifications or accusations removing responsibility for the failure. If the defeat crushed his soul, I wouldn't insist that he go to jail.

I want to see him try to invalidate the election and see the Secret Service drag him out in cuffs.

msteelers wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:38 pm So I hold out hope that Trump lives long enough to see his life torn down around him.

It's an involuntary fantasy of mine and I don't like it. It's a terrible thought to have even about such despicable human being. But there is the desire to see a sort of comeuppances or whatever its called. That the universe we live in is a feel good novel where the bad guys lose in the end and they know it.

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:21 pm I want to see him try to invalidate the election and see the Secret Service drag him out in cuffs.

Watching his body guards turn on him? Don't tease!

Not that that is literally how it would go down, but the image is insanely appealing.

Let's face it, his crimes are crimes against the American democracy. Aside from that he's a two bit villain with way than two bits in play. He's nobody and I wouldn't care what happened to him. It's the raping of America's ideals that require him to suffer.

LordMortis wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:23 pm

msteelers wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:38 pm So I hold out hope that Trump lives long enough to see his life torn down around him.

It's an involuntary fantasy of mine and I don't like it. It's a terrible thought to have even about such despicable human being. But there is the desire to see a sort of comeuppances or whatever its called. That the universe we live in is a feel good novel where the bad guys lose in the end and they know it.

Why is it such a terrible thought then? I don't get it.

Unagi wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:27 pm Why is it such a terrible thought then? I don't get it.

Wishing bad things on people can make a lot of people feel bad about themselves, as I recently commented on regarding my wife. Whether that's LM's point or not, I'll let him answer.

As a counter argument, there have been PLENTY of humans who deserve every illwill, curse, dislike, hatred or worse directed their way. Wanting bad things to happen to bad people doesn't keep me up at night, although I do try to keep it to a minimum as I don't think it's healthy to have that much bile in your soul.

It's ok to acknowledge that bad people are bad and that they deserve bad things. I also try to keep it proportional and I'm fairly sure my desire for bad things for drumpf is not proportional. It's just so violating to my world view that I'm outraged, all the time. It's easy to be objective when the crime is far away and to other people. It's a lot tougher when it's in your backyard and happened to a good friend.

I'm against the death penalty not because I'm a humanitarian and think people don't deserve to die for their crimes. I'm against the death penalty because putting even a single innocent man to death outweighs any sort of righteous retribution striking down the wicked. There are many people who deserve it though.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:36 pm Wanting bad things to happen to bad people doesn't keep me up at night, although I do try to keep it to a minimum as I don't think it's healthy to have that much bile in your soul.

That's where I am at.

And I get what LM was saying in that sense. I am just trying to help him remember that he is only wanting to live in a world where the bad-guy get's his comeuppance. It's not like he is wishing suffering on someone he disagrees with. This man is fucking our country.

Gotcha.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:29 pm
See, I knew that, but my view, if I haven't been clear, is that drumpf is an exception. An exceptional exception. That some Americans can look at him and not see that (it took me weeks to accept that rational, good people can think he's a good person despite all evidence to the contrary) is incredibly vexing. He's not business as usual. He's...an atrocity that has no business being the leader of busboys, let alone a billion dollar empire. Leader of the free world should never have even been on the table.

Yeah, this. This is what keeps me up at night and gives me ulcers. I thought W was the apex of bad presidents. His choices around Iraq and tax cuts and foreign policy in general were awful, and he struck me as being underequipped mentally for the job. But I always felt like he had the best interest of the country at heart and was a reasonable person. I disagreed with him on just about everything policywise, but he at least did the non-negotiable things like tamping down ethno-nationalists. He respected American institutions. He didn't have fucking actual Nazis in his set of advisors. Trump takes all of W's faults and doubles down with a grifter's heart and a willingness to burn it all down if he doesn't get his way. He revels in division and cannot tolerate any checks on his whims.

His flaws are so manifest that it is impossible to give his hardcore supporters the benefit of the doubt. Tuesday was depressing to me because our outrage as a nation should have been on display in every race.