[WW] STARSHIP R.SCOTT II - Game over!

[Newcastle]

I understand people were getting frustrated with each other and I certainly don't want to cause hard feelings but the frustration is exactly the EDGE I want in this game. Two sides that need to work together however working together is exactly the opposite of what they really want to do which is kill the other side. That mechanic continues to work well.

Any other suggestions?

I honestly didnt enjoy that level of frustration scoop, it was a "non fun" factor for me..most likely if that doesnt change, i probably will skip the next iteration. I think you need to install more avenues of cooperation, because i dont like playing the way I did in that "imma gonna take my ball and go home", which was really the only strategy that i had left.

[Lagom Lite]

That was a seriously frustrating game to watch from the sidelines... Killing theohall made so much sense to me. But hey, any road that results in a victory is a good road, no?

[stessier]

HA!

Like this in any way validates your strategy? Even a stopped clock, blah, blah blah.

Well, if he actually thought Remus was the alien then it was the perfect strategy...it just seems at the end that might not have been his motivation.

I thought it was possible. I found his choice of Corps target today to be not well thought out and that he was intentionally fanning the faction flame. I thought it was different than what Brendan was doing.

I also knew I could vote with the Cons tomorrow and still have an advantage (assuming Mama was dead). I was hoping my willingness to vote Corp and the plan I laid out would get them to unlock whoever was shut down today. Then tomorrow we take out Newcastle, Symbiot locks Chaos, etc. Basically, I thought we could get one more day/scan with our full contingent rather than start the war today.

Sorry, Brendan, if that caused undo stress. I was hoping y'all would hate me to make it look real. Didn't want to cause anyone a stroke though.

[Lassr]

I understand people were getting frustrated with each other and I certainly don't want to cause hard feelings but the frustration is exactly the EDGE I want in this game. Two sides that need to work together however working together is exactly the opposite of what they really want to do which is kill the other side. That mechanic continues to work well.

Speaking for myself, it's 98% mock frustration, and 2% astonishment. The challenge is that both teams will naturally want to consolidate their power, but I think things would've gone differently without a mass corp reveal, though it was necessitated by voting patterns.

maybe split the powers evenly so you can hide amongst the corp also.

[stessier]

That was actually a ploy?!

Grund's not the only one who can do crazy %*#$.

[Lassr]

Why did Isgrimnur choose Remus? He's always a target for lynch...then again I guess Isgrimnur didn't expect to die on day, er course correction 1.

[stessier]

I understand people were getting frustrated with each other and I certainly don't want to cause hard feelings but the frustration is exactly the EDGE I want in this game. Two sides that need to work together however working together is exactly the opposite of what they really want to do which is kill the other side. That mechanic continues to work well.

Any other suggestions?

I honestly didnt enjoy that level of frustration scoop, it was a "non fun" factor for me..most likely if that doesnt change, i probably will skip the next iteration. I think you need to install more avenues of cooperation, because i dont like playing the way I did in that "imma gonna take my ball and go home", which was really the only strategy that i had left.

I really enjoy the write ups and thought you did a great job Modding, Scoop.

But I agree with Newcastle. The frustration wasn't fun. There was no way to bend the other side to our will either through clever argument, trickery, or brute force. Basically, there was no skill - it was all getting lucky with our airlocks while we had the votes. At least imo.

[Newcastle]

HA!

Like this in any way validates your strategy? Even a stopped clock, blah, blah blah.

Well, if he actually thought Remus was the alien then it was the perfect strategy...it just seems at the end that might not have been his motivation.

I thought it was possible. I found his choice of Corps target today to be not well thought out and that he was intentionally fanning the faction flame. I thought it was different than what Brendan was doing.

I also knew I could vote with the Cons tomorrow and still have an advantage (assuming Mama was dead). I was hoping my willingness to vote Corp and the plan I laid out would get them to unlock whoever was shut down today. Then tomorrow we take out Newcastle, Symbiot locks Chaos, etc. Basically, I thought we could get one more day/scan with our full contingent rather than start the war today.

Sorry, Brendan, if that caused undo stress. I was hoping y'all would hate me to make it look real. Didn't want to cause anyone a stroke though.

actually my plan was this...

if the day had continued and remus was a con....and say symbiot locked down a con tomorrow...i was going to make a direct appeal to the symbiot/alien to join our team..because it would have been 5-4, and the switch of one vote would swing it. I pretty much would have agreed to give that person immunity who voted with us today (cc3)...immunity being not voted out, and also would be released from the "lockdown".

the thinking behind it was to try to neuter team corp, play off the faction flames, and try to get some sort of edge.

In addition was hoping to make it appealiing to mr. alien by allowing him to be released by us, as long as he voted with us.

Making it appealing to MR. SYmbiot by guaranteeing we wouldnt unlock any of his "lockdowns".

I realize this was a long shot....but if either the symbiot or alien bit...that would swing the game in our way...then i figured somewhere around, day 5, when corp had the real numbers advantage, backstab the alien/symbiot who joined us. Bam, team con on lockdown, mr. alien is dead...team corp get to go back home...heroes.

That's where my thinking had ended up, so am glad i wasnt the only one thinking of betrayals.

[stessier]

Why did Isgrimnur choose Remus? He's always a target for lynch...then again I guess Isgrimnur didn't expect to die on day, er course correction 1.

Maybe he thought he'd go down in flames and we would think Remus the Mama?

[Newcastle]

HA!

Like this in any way validates your strategy? Even a stopped clock, blah, blah blah.

Well, if he actually thought Remus was the alien then it was the perfect strategy...it just seems at the end that might not have been his motivation.

I thought it was possible. I found his choice of Corps target today to be not well thought out and that he was intentionally fanning the faction flame. I thought it was different than what Brendan was doing.

i thought remus fanning the faction wars seemed a bit off...and thought he could be the symbiot and quite possibly the alien. Since those two factions would really thrive in such an environment.

[Unagi]

LOL - awesome.

I had a feeling stessier was doing a bit of what I was also trying to do, not totally burn the bridges to the Corp for just 1 more day, but I eventually just became convinced we could be totally blowing it - if the tide turned over the CC (me being frozen, for instance)


Wow. awesome.

[Arcanis]

actually i was taking a gamble on the CC. Before Scoop posted the result i had already sent in my CC action. I was going to lock down Chaos tonight to keep him in question for tomorrow and hope we could get all the cons on him.

I still would have lost though since Bubbles scanned Remus on CC1 and he was human so i would have left him alone for a while. I was actually going to lock Lassr and Tru1cy once i felt safe that the Eng wouldn't unlock them.

On looking at it the Symbiont probably has the hardest victory condition because he literally can't win unless both engies die or dig themselves a hole by refusing to unlock people. With there being 2 they can unlock 2x as fast as i could lock so there was no way of getting ahead.

[stessier]

actually i was taking a gamble on the CC. Before Scoop posted the result i had already sent in my CC action. I was going to lock down Chaos tonight to keep him in question for tomorrow and hope we could get all the cons on him.

I still would have lost though since Bubbles scanned Remus on CC1 and he was human so i would have left him alone for a while. I was actually going to lock Lassr and Tru1cy once i felt safe that the Eng wouldn't unlock them.

On looking at it the Symbiont probably has the hardest victory condition because he literally can't win unless both engies die or dig themselves a hole by refusing to unlock people. With there being 2 they can unlock 2x as fast as i could lock so there was no way of getting ahead.

Locking Chaos would have been bad for you. Newcastle would have unlocked any Corps member immediately. The Convicts would have loved you, however.

[Arcanis]

I knew he would be unlocked but was hoping to get the cons to airlock him so i could safely start locking cons as i fully expected Newcastle to take his ball and go home.

lock down wasn't the point, airlock was.

[Unagi]

I understand people were getting frustrated with each other and I certainly don't want to cause hard feelings but the frustration is exactly the EDGE I want in this game. Two sides that need to work together however working together is exactly the opposite of what they really want to do which is kill the other side. That mechanic continues to work well.

Speaking for myself, it's 98% mock frustration, and 2% astonishment. The challenge is that both teams will naturally want to consolidate their power, but I think things would've gone differently without a mass corp reveal, though it was necessitated by voting patterns.

I think the mass corp reveal is perhaps baked in.

They hold all the ways to be proven, and additionally - convicts are just meatshields and hiding places for the people they are after.

The corp isn't really needing of the convicts, (hacker helps cons really) - but the convicts do need the corp. Not sure if it would totally destroy the game, but any chance to free up the cons dependence on the corp could make things less stressful.

also, damn - I (also VERY busy work life right now) really don't think I would have cared about the game if we hadn't caught the mother alien when we did. I really don't think the convicts would EVER win this game if the alien threat kept growing. So, having them keep breeding - no thanks.

[Semaj]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

[Brendan]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Uh, shooting Remus would've lost you the game days earlier.

[Arcanis]

thoughts on the rules.

1)Even the number of symbiont and engineers. that way they have to play a game of cat an mouse with eachother
2)remove the symbiont's scan ability. it is relatively useless because it is better to take the shot in the dark.
3)give the symbiont something worth doing on CC1. in this case scanned the actual target of conversion and it provided false information, lock down would have resulted in target being unlocked immediately and possibly prevented a conversion that would be pretty important or they humans win relatively easily.
4) have each faction have 1 engineer. in some way even out the powers this i think is the best to prevent the "taking my ball and going home" route
5) allow some limited behind the scenes communication between members of the same team/function. I think the aliens should be able to send 1 pm each during CC. The engineers leaving coded messages that don't have a name on them, so only the other eng. can read it but won't know who sent it.

6) I'm almost tempted to say total parity between Corp and Cons but then that eliminates the conflict of being forced to work with the other faction. I think that without such parity it will be a matter of luck for anyone but the Alien to win these games. Perhaps the corps have 1 gun, 1 eng, 1 coroner role; and the cons have 1 gun, 1 eng, 1 seer. Then the engies have to work together or the symbiont will rampantly lock down everything, the corps can withhold what the airlock victim was, and the cons can withhold who the alien/symbiont is. It also allows each team to execute one member of the other team allowing for balance swings.

[Lagom Lite]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Uh, shooting Remus would've lost you the game days earlier.

No, it wouldn't.

[Brendan]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Uh, shooting Remus would've lost you the game days earlier.

No, it wouldn't.

Explain!

By "days", I mean RL days, not game days.

[Lagom Lite]

The major point I'd like to make about the rulez is really one of clarity; specifically, clarification of the Victory conditions. Many players thought that the Con/Crew shared a victory condition, and that the "sub-victories" were mere nuances. I'd either remove the whole "sub-victory" description and be completely clear that it is a four faction game (any other faction wins = my faction loses, regardless of whether it's aliens or symbiont or the other human team) OR be very clear that the human teams share "small victories". It was a bit confusing, and Scoop noted so himself.

It would be interesting to get a game going where Isgrimn- I mean, one of the Aliens, isn't shot on Day 1.

[Lagom Lite]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Uh, shooting Remus would've lost you the game days earlier.

No, it wouldn't.

Explain!

By "days", I mean RL days, not game days.

If Semaj had shot Remus instead of Grund, Grund would have been alive for the Victory condition body count. There would have been five Cons and five Crewies - the Crew would have won.

[Brendan]

Ah, right - forgot that tie goes to the corps. Heh.

[theohall]

HA!

Like this in any way validates your strategy? Even a stopped clock, blah, blah blah.

Leave it to the Corp to win the game for the Convicts. Idiot, Convicts! Can't even win a game for themselves.

[Grundbegriff]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Your play (shooting on gut instinct an uncontested teammate whose contribution to the team's population would make or break the team's chance of victory) was the most objectively stupid play I've ever seen in one of these games.

What were you thinking?

Even after I made the stakes clear to you, you dove right in, on no concrete basis at all, and scratched our team's chance at winning.

[Grundbegriff]

If Semaj had shot Remus instead of Grund, Grund would have been alive for the Victory condition body count. There would have been five Cons and five Crewies - the Crew would have won.

Correct. And my game was to try to take a bite out of the Convict population to secure our margin in case I was wrong about Remus. But Semaj put an end to that (victory-conducive) plan....

For posterity, here's the death-note I sent to Scoop before I was spoiled:

Heh. Unagi's counting a current population of 12 instead of 11; too many convicts in his "pin one on Chaosraven" hunt.

Please enable me in the spoiler forum. I've already registered. Here's my final unspoiled guess:

POPULATION AT MY DEATH = 11:
POSSIBLE SCENARIOS:

A:: If Isgrimnur was Mama and a Convict was converted:
Convicts 5: stessier and four of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Corp 4: theohall, Semaj, Newcastle, Chaosraven
Symbiont 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Alien Convert 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}

B:: If Isgrimnur was Mama and a Corp was converted:
Convicts 6: stessier and five of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Corp 3: theohall, Semaj, Newcastle
Symbiont 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Alien Convert 1: Chaosraven

C:: If Isgrimnur the Convict was converted by Mama who then missed:
Convicts 5: stessier and four of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Corp 4: theohall, Semaj, Newcastle, Chaosraven
Symbiont 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
AlienMama 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}

These are the three possible worlds, as far as I can tell. One of them is the actual case.

The fact that Chaosraven stepped forward as Engineer and outlined how Engineers can prove themselves suggests that he's unconverted. But he could just be insidious. Even so, I think Scenario B is least likely.

When Isgrimnur protested and asked to stay in the game, was it because he had finally scored a cool role (Mama) and was deprived of the chance to say it? In that case, his cries of "I'm just a Convict" were meaningless cover. Or was he actually a Convict who had just been converted and wanted to play the covert role?

I tilt slightly toward thinking that Isgrimnur was the Mama. I think a living Mama probably would've realized the risk of collision over a locked down theohall, would've aimed elsewhere, and likely wouldn't have hit the Symbiont. So my current guess is that we're in Scenario A.

A:: If Isgrimnur was Mama and a Convict was converted:
Convicts 5: stessier and four of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Corp 4: theohall, Semaj, Newcastle, Chaosraven
Symbiont 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}
Alien Convert 1: one of {Brendan, Bubbles, Lassr, Remus, tru1cy, Unagi}

The one who acted most like an evildoer was Remus West. In the past, when he has pushed that hard for my elimination, he was evil. So I think he's likely a convert. I do not think tru1cy is a convert. I do not think Unagi is a convert. I do not know whether Brendan, Bubbles, or Lassr is a convert.

Among the candidates for Symbiont, the one who acted most Symbiontic was Brendan, followed by Unagi, followed by tru1cy.

It doesn't really matter who the Hacker is; he's effectively just another Convict from a Corporate perspective. But I think stessier is the Hacker. Lassr would be my second guess, with Brendan my third.

GUESS:
AlienMama: Isgrimnur
Symbiont: Brendan or Unagi or tru1cy in that order
Hacker: stessier or Lassr or Brendan in that order
Convict 01: Lagom Lite
Convict 02: Remus West (Converted to Alien)
Convict 03: Mr Bubbles
Convict 04: tru1cy
Convict 05: Lassr
Convict 06: Unagi
Marine 01: theohall
Marine 02: Semaj
Engineer 01: Chaosraven
Engineer 02: Newcastle
LSS: Grundbegriff

[stessier]

Hacker: stessier or Lassr or Brendan in that order

You really think I would have scanned myself? I hadn't even come out as a Team Killer yet!

[Remus West]

damn the man

I was 50-50 between grund and remus...

queue swearing

Your play (shooting on gut instinct an uncontested teammate whose contribution to the team's population would make or break the team's chance of victory) was the most objectively stupid play I've ever seen in one of these games.

What were you thinking?

Even after I made the stakes clear to you, you dove right in, on no concrete basis at all, and scratched our team's chance at winning.

That is not even close to correct. You never made a complete claim until DAYS after he said he intended to shoot you. YOU had the ability to say "wait, I'm the unconverted LSS and I can provide proof". You made the mistake not Semaj. Until you provided proof of a single Alien there was every possibility to believe there were two and thus not trust you not matter how many times you implied there was only one.

This game was almost no fun at all for me though since I was absolutely powerless from the start. Losing the Mother completely cripples the Alien team. If I play again there needs to be some mechanic to prevent that. Day 1 I was looking at trying to survive 7 attempts to find me between the 6 airlocks and the second shot. On top of that I could not impact events in anyway save my voice and single vote. Hacker comes forward? Oh well, nothing I can do. LSS comes forward? Engineer? Marine? All safe and sound. Talk about being able to build a block of trust against one side.

[Grundbegriff]

That is not even close to correct. You never made a complete claim until DAYS after he said he intended to shoot you. YOU had the ability to say "wait, I'm the unconverted LSS and I can provide proof".

You're mistaken.

By the time it was clear that he was claiming to be a gunslinger, there was only a short interval before he announced that the orders were in.

(I know that Newc read the "shoot yourself in the foot" line as a hint that Semaj was a Marine, but I didn't take it that way at first because I had used nearly the same expression not long before with no intent of sending that signal.)

I reaction by saying (a) that he was team-killing and thereby nuking our chances, and (b) that the Convicts would win.

Then he went through a brief song-and-dance as if to suggest that he hadn't yet submitted orders, so I used that interval to clarify the situation.

Either he had indeed already sent the orders without giving me a hearing, or he went ahead and sent the orders despite what I said when I thought there might still be a hope of preempting him.

You made the mistake not Semaj.

Nope. I followed the rational path most conducive to my team's victory. But (as noted elsewhere) I can do what my role affords; I can't prevent someone else from misusing his.

Until you provided proof of a single Alien there was every possibility to believe there were two and thus not trust you not matter how many times you implied there was only one.

Obviously, even if he suspected I was an Alien, he had to weigh that suspicion against (a) the quality of his evidence, and (b) the consequences of error. In the case of going off half-cocked, the cost of being wrong about his gut was that his own team could no longer win.

When the stakes are that high, isn't caution in order?

This game was almost no fun at all for me though since I was absolutely powerless from the start. Losing the Mother completely cripples the Alien team. If I play again there needs to be some mechanic to prevent that. Day 1 I was looking at trying to survive 7 attempts to find me between the 6 airlocks and the second shot.

You were in a virtually unwinnable situation, since several people had you pegged as an Alien. Horrible luck with Isgrimnur.

[tru1cy]

Shorten the turns, Scoop. Two weeks is entirely to long. Also, giving the Alien convert the ability to kill people will dissuade people from outing themselves

[theohall]

@ Remus West for being an alien - even though it lost my side the Faction War.

[Remus West]

@ Remus West for being an alien - even though it lost my side the Faction War.

Thought you'd like that.

Grund, obviously you did not feel you made a mistake or you would have played it differently. For me, I read him saying he was going to shoot you well before he said he had submitted the orders. Shrug, maybe I read him wrong and he already had, I don't know, but I thought it was a few pages between the two events.

[Chaosraven]

Just as people were willing to believe I could be a devious alien stepping forward under no pressure? Grund, you made it to N-1 right before semaj and didn't reveal... And in front of the gun you revealed but didn't prove. I would have shot you as well.

[Brendan]

Just as people were willing to believe I could be a devious alien stepping forward under no pressure? Grund, you made it to N-1 right before semaj and didn't reveal... And in front of the gun you revealed but didn't prove. I would have shot you as well.

He was trying to conserve the advantage for you guys - if he'd officially revealed, the convicts would've (theoretically) gone directly after a corp player because the report read "1". If he'd suppressed it, we would all have voted for him presuming he was converted.

I do think he should've faked a 2 once he knew he was dead.

[Grundbegriff]

Grund, you made it to N-1 right before semaj and didn't reveal... And in front of the gun you revealed but didn't prove. I would have shot you as well.

Insane.

N-1 doesn't bother me. People taking the game down a different, treacherous path on a whim bothers me.

Given that I was uncontested, the possibility that I was making a play in behalf of our team should've at least crossed the shooter's mind. Wouldn't it have crossed yours? I'd hate to think you'd shoot under that circumstance when one side of the scale has "I have a bad feeling about Grund" on it, and the other side has "If I'm wrong, we have no further chance of victory" on it.

Anyhow, I think this round of Scoop's spin on Alien illustrates why these rules (perhaps tweaked slightly) would be interesting and useful in a sociology lab....

[Grundbegriff]

Just as people were willing to believe I could be a devious alien stepping forward under no pressure? Grund, you made it to N-1 right before semaj and didn't reveal... And in front of the gun you revealed but didn't prove. I would have shot you as well.

He was trying to conserve the advantage for you guys - if he'd officially revealed, the convicts would've (theoretically) gone directly after a corp player because the report read "1". If he'd suppressed it, we would all have voted for him presuming he was converted.

I do think he should've faked a 2 once he knew he was dead.

There was no way to fake a 2 on the big screen. My choice was either to broadcast the true report or not to broadcast the true report.

If I had said "2 Aliens" during my Rosebud moment, would you have believed that any more than you believed it when I kept silent on the matter?

[Unagi]

@ Remus West for being an alien - even though it lost my side the Faction War.

at Theohall for not being a converted LSS or anything but a hero.


You can all thank me later for saving all of humanity.

[Unagi]

Just as people were willing to believe I could be a devious alien stepping forward under no pressure?

Not sure who you think actually thought you might be an alien, but I'm pretty sure most of the convicts kept that thought alive for other reasons.

[Unagi]

Anyhow, I think this round of Scoop's spin on Alien illustrates why these rules (perhaps tweaked slightly) would be interesting and useful in a sociology lab....

I was telling my wife this exact thing. Only I told her I wasn't so sure it was a 'fun game', but it was a great sociology experiment. seemed like a cousing to the prisoner's dilema of some sorts.

[Chaosraven]

Let me be as clear as I can on this grund... By NOT revealing a LSS report of any kind, it appears as if you were converted... And as we had indeed received a report the day before, it means the Mama MUST be alive. Perhaps you're right in that given the gun I should have shot PlayerX trying to kill Mama instead of you, the convert. But without a report, you would then have been airlocked.