Kurth wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:05 am
The rhetoric out of the French Economic Minister is not subtle:
Bruno Le Maire, France’s economy minister, said Europe was going to wage “total economic and financial war against Russia” with “formidable” sanctions. “We are going to cause the Russian economy to collapse,” Mr. Le Maire told Franceinfo radio on Tuesday morning.
When was the last time we saw a package of sanctions referred to as “total economic and financial war”?
Yeah, that’s what I thought:
The French finance minister, Bruno Le Maire, backpedaled on his declaration earlier Tuesday that Europe was ready to wage a “total economic and financial war against Russia,” in an apparent bid to defuse tensions after former Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev of Russia responded with a warning. Le Maire said his use of the term “war” was “inappropriate and does not correspond to our de-escalation strategy.” He added in a statement that France was “not in conflict with the Russian people.”
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:46 pm
by Zaxxon
Indeed, we've gotta treat the country that literally started a war with the toddler gloves.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:47 pm
by Roman
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:23 pm
Fair enough, but he does have supporters. Hell, I've known a couple, and even worked with one for a while. She couldn't stop talking about Putin and how awesome he was.
I guess we can assume it's the economic upper class that supports him.
I have the same sort of thing where I work. In my case he is a clear supporter of the CCP (China) interestingly enough his wife is Chinese Muslim......
He is always posting stuff on our Teams tenant about how amazing China is etc etc. Really tiresome.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:48 pm
by malchior
The diplomats need to be a bit careful as their words are twisted against them. Such as the nuclear alert being laid at UK Foreign Minister Liz Truss's feet. But then again Putin is going to do as Putin will even if there isn't a convenient excuse.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:50 pm
by IceBear
I have read so many articles lately that I've lost count, but I was reading one where the journalist was talking with a Ukrainian rebel in 2014. He was fighting against the West because he didn't want to be forced to marry a man because he believed the LQBTQ+ propaganda coming out of Russia. She even said that they were under the belief that the US was trying to legalize peodophillia
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:53 pm
by Zaxxon
IceBear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:50 pm
I have read so many articles lately that I've lost count, but I was reading one where the journalist was talking with a Ukrainian rebel in 2014. He was fighting against the West because he didn't want to be forced to marry a man because he believed the LQBTQ+ propaganda coming out of Russia. She even said that they were under the belief that the US was trying to legalize peodophillia
Given what a sizeable portion of the US citizenry believes, this should not be surprising.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:53 pm
by malchior
Roman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:47 pmI have the same sort of thing where I work. In my case he is a clear supporter of the CCP (China) interestingly enough his wife is Chinese Muslim......
He is always posting stuff on our Teams tenant about how amazing China is etc etc. Really tiresome.
I'm the same way but way more focused. I admire that they can build entire ghost cities in the same time it takes the state of NJ to replace a 2-lane bridge while snarling up an entire area's traffic. But that's the exact limit of my praise for them.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:47 amI have to think that they were worried about social blowback on them for being Russian.
Maybe they saw things like this happening. We (as a society) need to be careful not to assign blame to the people of Russia who are very much victims of this corrupt autocracy as well.
We do NOT want to get even close to the atrocities we committed against Japanese Americans in our country during WWII. That shit needs to be nipped in the bud quickly.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:58 pm
by Daehawk
I feel sad for the young Russian soldiers who are forced into Ukraine on lies and threats. Most were told it was just exercises or that the Ukrainians wanted them there. Worse others were told they would be imprisoned or shot if they disobeyed orders. Then on the Ukrainian side they are just defending their people and homes and are forced to kill the Russians. Seems a lot of these young Russians are simply left with nothing but to die on Ukrainian soil. Not saying all are this but many are.
Ive heard other stories like this so far repeated.
That's a great read, thanks for sharing. This part really stood out, but didn't surprise me.
"Putin tried to warn Trump about this [that nuclear use was on the table], but I don’t think Trump figured out what he was saying. In one of the last meetings between Putin and Trump when I was there, Putin was making the point that: “Well you know, Donald, we have these hypersonic missiles.” And Trump was saying, “Well, we will get them too.” Putin was saying, “Well, yes, you will get them eventually, but we’ve got them first.” There was a menace in this exchange. Putin was putting us on notice that if push came to shove in some confrontational environment that the nuclear option would be on the table."
$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:57 am
My 15 yr old niece made it over the border into Poland successfully on Friday and is now in the US. Her story is echoed by thousands who are trying to leave the Ukraine. After rocket strikes struck the nearby airport he decided to send her to join her sister who is college in the US. He drove her, another girl and the other girl’s father who was handicapped to the border. They had to leave their car 2 km from the border because traffic made further travel by car impossible. At a checkpoint where buses were supposed to take pedestrians into Poland they were told that there were stopping for the evening. The handicapped father was also not allowed to cross. My brother in law who is an American citizen but wasn’t leaving due to his wife and her family staying then looked for any “friendly” cars at the checkpoint who were driving into Poland. They found someone who was willing to drive my niece and her friends across and he left them with the driver. He then started walking back to his car which was 2 km away with the handicapped father in the dark and a few hours later got video of his daughter crossing into Poland where she was to meet friends who lived outside Warsaw. They had to hitchhike a little however to get to their pickup point. After that she was able to catch a flight to the US on Sunday. We wished he had sent her over before the war started but she was very fortunate because the situation at the border has grown considerably worse.
I'm so glad your niece has made it out and into the EU.
Thanks! And she’s with her sister and plenty of cousins here in the US now. I’m afraid however that even if my brother in law wanted to leave it’s going to be a lot more difficult. He has lived in Russia back when it was the Soviet Union, married a Ukrainian and moved to Ukraine back when it was part of the Soviet Union so he has a life there. He’s never lived in an active war zone though hence our concern.
That's a great read, thanks for sharing. This part really stood out, but didn't surprise me.
"Putin tried to warn Trump about this [that nuclear use was on the table], but I don’t think Trump figured out what he was saying. In one of the last meetings between Putin and Trump when I was there, Putin was making the point that: “Well you know, Donald, we have these hypersonic missiles.” And Trump was saying, “Well, we will get them too.” Putin was saying, “Well, yes, you will get them eventually, but we’ve got them first.” There was a menace in this exchange. Putin was putting us on notice that if push came to shove in some confrontational environment that the nuclear option would be on the table."
That's not from the article I shared, but that exchange is terrifying (both what Putin was laying down, and that Trump apparently was too dim to pick it up).
$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:03 pmThanks! And she’s with her sister and plenty of cousins here in the US now. I’m afraid however that even if my brother in law wanted to leave it’s going to be a lot more difficult. He has lived in Russia back when it was the Soviet Union, married a Ukrainian and moved to Ukraine back when it was part of the Soviet Union so he has a life there. He’s never lived in an active war zone though hence our concern.
$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:57 am
My 15 yr old niece made it over the border into Poland successfully on Friday and is now in the US. Her story is echoed by thousands who are trying to leave the Ukraine. After rocket strikes struck the nearby airport he decided to send her to join her sister who is college in the US. He drove her, another girl and the other girl’s father who was handicapped to the border. They had to leave their car 2 km from the border because traffic made further travel by car impossible. At a checkpoint where buses were supposed to take pedestrians into Poland they were told that there were stopping for the evening. The handicapped father was also not allowed to cross. My brother in law who is an American citizen but wasn’t leaving due to his wife and her family staying then looked for any “friendly” cars at the checkpoint who were driving into Poland. They found someone who was willing to drive my niece and her friends across and he left them with the driver. He then started walking back to his car which was 2 km away with the handicapped father in the dark and a few hours later got video of his daughter crossing into Poland where she was to meet friends who lived outside Warsaw. They had to hitchhike a little however to get to their pickup point. After that she was able to catch a flight to the US on Sunday. We wished he had sent her over before the war started but she was very fortunate because the situation at the border has grown considerably worse.
I'm so glad your niece has made it out and into the EU.
Thanks! And she’s with her sister and plenty of cousins here in the US now. I’m afraid however that even if my brother in law wanted to leave it’s going to be a lot more difficult. He has lived in Russia back when it was the Soviet Union, married a Ukrainian and moved to Ukraine back when it was part of the Soviet Union so he has a life there. He’s never lived in an active war zone though hence our concern.
Ditto on the sentiment. I'm glad to hear they got out safely, and I hope her parents join her soon, or see it through these harrowing times safely if forced to stay.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:17 pm
by Carpet_pissr
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:07 pmThat's not from the article I shared, but that exchange is terrifying (both what Putin was laying down, and that Trump apparently was too dim to pick it up).
What the hell? I wonder if someone else recently posted an Atlantic article in this thread?
‘Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes
Putin is trying to take down the entire world order, the veteran Russia watcher said in an interview. But there are ways even ordinary Americans can fight back.
That's a great read, thanks for sharing. This part really stood out, but didn't surprise me.
"Putin tried to warn Trump about this [that nuclear use was on the table], but I don’t think Trump figured out what he was saying. In one of the last meetings between Putin and Trump when I was there, Putin was making the point that: “Well you know, Donald, we have these hypersonic missiles.” And Trump was saying, “Well, we will get them too.” Putin was saying, “Well, yes, you will get them eventually, but we’ve got them first.” There was a menace in this exchange. Putin was putting us on notice that if push came to shove in some confrontational environment that the nuclear option would be on the table."
Did you quote the wrong article? I can't find that anecdote anywhere in the Atlantic piece.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:07 pmThat's not from the article I shared, but that exchange is terrifying (both what Putin was laying down, and that Trump apparently was too dim to pick it up).
What the hell? I wonder if someone else recently posted an Atlantic article in this thread?
‘Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes
Putin is trying to take down the entire world order, the veteran Russia watcher said in an interview. But there are ways even ordinary Americans can fight back.
Fiona Hill, one of America’s most clear-eyed Russia experts, someone who has studied Putin for decades, worked in both Republican and Democratic administrations and has a reputation for truth-telling, earned when she testified during impeachment hearings for her former boss, President Donald Trump.
Article is about the historical context of both Russia and Putin and why this is a Big Deal.
$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:57 am
My 15 yr old niece made it over the border into Poland successfully on Friday and is now in the US. Her story is echoed by thousands who are trying to leave the Ukraine. After rocket strikes struck the nearby airport he decided to send her to join her sister who is college in the US. He drove her, another girl and the other girl’s father who was handicapped to the border. They had to leave their car 2 km from the border because traffic made further travel by car impossible. At a checkpoint where buses were supposed to take pedestrians into Poland they were told that there were stopping for the evening. The handicapped father was also not allowed to cross. My brother in law who is an American citizen but wasn’t leaving due to his wife and her family staying then looked for any “friendly” cars at the checkpoint who were driving into Poland. They found someone who was willing to drive my niece and her friends across and he left them with the driver. He then started walking back to his car which was 2 km away with the handicapped father in the dark and a few hours later got video of his daughter crossing into Poland where she was to meet friends who lived outside Warsaw. They had to hitchhike a little however to get to their pickup point. After that she was able to catch a flight to the US on Sunday. We wished he had sent her over before the war started but she was very fortunate because the situation at the border has grown considerably worse.
I'm so glad your niece has made it out and into the EU.
Thanks! And she’s with her sister and plenty of cousins here in the US now. I’m afraid however that even if my brother in law wanted to leave it’s going to be a lot more difficult. He has lived in Russia back when it was the Soviet Union, married a Ukrainian and moved to Ukraine back when it was part of the Soviet Union so he has a life there. He’s never lived in an active war zone though hence our concern.
Ditto on the sentiment. I'm glad to hear they got out safely, and I hope her parents join her soon, or see it through these harrowing times safely if forced to stay.
He lives in the west so with the regional airport we’re hoping that other than the possibility of future bombardment that hopefully doesn’t go off target there won’t be other reasons for Russian troops to take an interest in the area. My concern is if the troops in Belarus enter Ukraine. Will they support the attack on Kyiv? Will they operate closer to the Polish border to try and interdict the flow of weapons to the Ukrainians? Ukraine is a big country so hopefully the odds are still in his favor.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:35 pm
by Jaymon
I am worried. We spent years talking about Trump. "there is no way he could sink that low" but he always did sink that low. And now we are talking about, There is no way Putin would use nukes. But, we have no idea what his mental state is. Is this a genius tactical move from a brilliant mind? Or is this an half baked territory grab from an unstable megalomaniac ? How much of Putins government approves of this war? How much of the oligarchy approves of this war? How quickly will they flip on him after the economic sanctions?
The world is coming down hard on Putin, backing him into a corner. He may not be the kind of guy who accepts defeat and exile. He may instead, decide to go out with a bang. If he can't have Ukraine, then no one can.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:49 pm
by dbt1949
In the olde days of the Soviet Union the head of the party was not a dictator. He had to go by the will of the council.
How much is Putin in charge? Does he have to answer to a council too?
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:02 pm
by Octavious
As far as I know he doesn't answer to anyone. If he says nuke NYC our only hope is that they tell him to piss off. I doubt they would. So we have that going for us. I hear he's a genius and that we should be friends though.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:08 pm
by IceBear
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:35 pm
I am worried. We spent years talking about Trump. "there is no way he could sink that low" but he always did sink that low. And now we are talking about, There is no way Putin would use nukes. But, we have no idea what his mental state is. Is this a genius tactical move from a brilliant mind? Or is this an half baked territory grab from an unstable megalomaniac ? How much of Putins government approves of this war? How much of the oligarchy approves of this war? How quickly will they flip on him after the economic sanctions?
The world is coming down hard on Putin, backing him into a corner. He may not be the kind of guy who accepts defeat and exile. He may instead, decide to go out with a bang. If he can't have Ukraine, then no one can.
This is exactly how I feel. Have not been sleeping at all since this started. It feels like we have to depend on someone standing up to him when the time comes when he pushes the button. Considering the decades he's had to get rid of opposition it's not a certain that I would like
Hope Biden doesn't say something tonight that he takes the wrong way
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:18 pm
by Chraolic
Daehawk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:58 pm
I feel sad for the young Russian soldiers who are forced into Ukraine on lies and threats. Most were told it was just exercises or that the Ukrainians wanted them there. Worse others were told they would be imprisoned or shot if they disobeyed orders. Then on the Ukrainian side they are just defending their people and homes and are forced to kill the Russians. Seems a lot of these young Russians are simply left with nothing but to die on Ukrainian soil. Not saying all are this but many are.
The Ukrainians came to the same conclusion, so they've offered $50,000 in cryptocurrency and full amnesty to any invading soldier who lays down their arms and surrenders. $50,000 is about three or four years worth of salary for a Russian soldier, so I imagine they will have more than a few willing to take them up on the offer.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:31 pm
by Octavious
I can't even watch the speech tonight. Watching all the BS the right will do will make me want to smash the tv. I'll just read a summary later.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:33 pm
by Newcastle
RE: Fiona Hill
There was a great NY Times interview with her a few weeks ago. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/18/us/p ... Position=1 [ apologize for the ugly link; forgot how to do the slick embeds]. Really good stuff. Link's probably behind a pay wall FYI.
Her Politico article is a lengthy and really a great read.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:37 pm
by Skinypupy
Jesus.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:40 pm
by YellowKing
Considering how easily Americans made sacrifices to protect us from Covid, I can't wait to see how readily they'll accept $4 gas to prevent a dictator from taking over the world.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:45 pm
by malchior
That looks like a thermobaric munition (or maybe munitions dump). I really hope they didn't hit something residential.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:46 pm
by IceBear
A few people in the Twitter thread said it was a Fuel Air bomb that hit munitions
Mexico wants to be friends with everyone so not sanctioning Russia. They also disagree with censorship of Russia state media
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:52 pm
by Jaymann
IceBear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:46 pm
A few people in the Twitter thread said it was a Fuel Air bomb that hit munitions
Mexico wants to be friends with everyone so not sanctioning Russia. They also disagree with censorship of Russia state media
Apparently they actually *are* sending their best.
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:35 pm
I am worried. We spent years talking about Trump. "there is no way he could sink that low" but he always did sink that low. And now we are talking about, There is no way Putin would use nukes. But, we have no idea what his mental state is. Is this a genius tactical move from a brilliant mind? Or is this an half baked territory grab from an unstable megalomaniac ? How much of Putins government approves of this war? How much of the oligarchy approves of this war? How quickly will they flip on him after the economic sanctions?
The world is coming down hard on Putin, backing him into a corner. He may not be the kind of guy who accepts defeat and exile. He may instead, decide to go out with a bang. If he can't have Ukraine, then no one can.
This is exactly how I feel. Have not been sleeping at all since this started. It feels like we have to depend on someone standing up to him when the time comes when he pushes the button. Considering the decades he's had to get rid of opposition it's not a certain that I would like
Hope Biden doesn't say something tonight that he takes the wrong way
Surprisingly, I have been able to sleep.
I think it's because there is literally nothing I can do, and I'm not sure I want to survive a nuclear strike anyway.
That said, I'd much prefer to keep living.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:00 pm
by Carpet_pissr
from a study made by the US Defense Intelligence Agency re: fuel air explosives (I looked it up bc I had no idea what that was):
The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique—and unpleasant. ... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs. ... If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as with most chemical agents.
According to a US Central Intelligence Agency study,[15] "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness." Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that, because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue ... it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate"
Humans rock!!!
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:11 pm
by YellowKing
My wife's cousin worked for the Pentagon in some sort of weapons capacity and told us of the horrors of fuel air explosives years and years ago. It was one of the few things he let slip - he refused to talk about most of what he worked on not only because it was classified, but because in his words - "it would scare you to death."
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:18 pm
by Daehawk
Octavious wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:02 pm
As far as I know he doesn't answer to anyone. If he says nuke NYC our only hope is that they tell him to piss off. I doubt they would. So we have that going for us. I hear he's a genius and that we should be friends though.
But is he a stable genius.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:25 pm
by Max Peck
Via an ABC reporter:
Enormous explosion outside Ukraine’s second largest city Kharkiv.
Kharkiv’s governor confirmed to us it was an ammunition dump, it seems hit by an Russian airstrike.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:22 pm
by Blackhawk
Thermobaric (feul air/vacuum bombs) are nasty, nasty things. I honestly wonder why they haven't been banned yet. They're nightmarish in what they can do to a person. Rupturing lungs is the tip of the iceberg.
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:58 am
The windows shouldn’t have been touched , but Russia House maybe should chill on flying the flag.
If I were them I would probably take it down to be safe, but they shouldn't have to remove the flag. They're not part of the war or the Russian government, and they're still Russians and shouldn't have to hide that.
The irony is the owner isn't even Russian. He is a guy named McGovern. It was just branding.
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:58 am
The windows shouldn’t have been touched , but Russia House maybe should chill on flying the flag.
If I were them I would probably take it down to be safe, but they shouldn't have to remove the flag. They're not part of the war or the Russian government, and they're still Russians and shouldn't have to hide that.
The irony is the owner isn't even Russian. He is a guy named McGovern. It was just branding.
For le Carré fans?
Everybody's a critic.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:58 pm
by Grifman
$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:57 am
My 15 yr old niece made it over the border into Poland successfully on Friday and is now in the US. Her story is echoed by thousands who are trying to leave the Ukraine. After rocket strikes struck the nearby airport he decided to send her to join her sister who is college in the US. He drove her, another girl and the other girl’s father who was handicapped to the border. They had to leave their car 2 km from the border because traffic made further travel by car impossible. At a checkpoint where buses were supposed to take pedestrians into Poland they were told that there were stopping for the evening. The handicapped father was also not allowed to cross. My brother in law who is an American citizen but wasn’t leaving due to his wife and her family staying then looked for any “friendly” cars at the checkpoint who were driving into Poland. They found someone who was willing to drive my niece and her friends across and he left them with the driver. He then started walking back to his car which was 2 km away with the handicapped father in the dark and a few hours later got video of his daughter crossing into Poland where she was to meet friends who lived outside Warsaw. They had to hitchhike a little however to get to their pickup point. After that she was able to catch a flight to the US on Sunday. We wished he had sent her over before the war started but she was very fortunate because the situation at the border has grown considerably worse.
In the meantime my brother in law was part of a caravan trying to evacuate families from a church in the outskirts of Kyiv, traveling by day due to curfew and avoiding areas of fighting. There was a Russian jet which overflew them at low altitude but it was probably more concerned by the Ukrainian jet that was pursuing it. He was approaching from the west so there were some open routes. He finally made it back to his town with “a van full of women” (his words).
Man, so sorry to hear this but glad that your niece made it out. Really brings it home.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:59 pm
by Grifman
Max Peck wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:25 pm
Via an ABC reporter:
Enormous explosion outside Ukraine’s second largest city Kharkiv.
Kharkiv’s governor confirmed to us it was an ammunition dump, it seems hit by an Russian airstrike.
Turned out to be an ammo dump.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:00 pm
by Grifman
Russian air assault with Stingers doing some business on them:
