Octopus Overlords

Look at you, being optimistic that there will be jobs in 7-8 years.

Other than ONE single callback, and interview, NOTHING.

Applied to couple dozen more places, but it's like dropping a rock in a bottomless cave. Nothing, nothing, nothing...

Still applying though. Decided to broaden my search for full stack webdev or tech support or dev support

And a fair bit of resume polishing.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:36 pmOther than ONE single callback, and interview, NOTHING.

It can be very disheartening and I've been there. Keep at it.

I've been slowly plucking the job strings since I was hired where I'm at. I've had maybe four interviews in 3 years without luck, and sent out perhaps 25 resumes. I'm being picky and selective, and the market up here for what I'm looking for is stuffed with qualified applicants. Everything I toss out is adrift in a sea of 25-50 other resumes for that one job, according to just LinkedIn.

I realized after my vacation last week that I've reached a critical burnout point with my current employer. Nothing changes here and I'm tired of answering the same six questions 30 times a week. I have no respect for half of the ownership team, and reporting to someone that I respect is important to me. I've been happier in shittier jobs because the owners were people I thought were decent and hardworking.

Today I woke up and it hit me hard. I really don't want to be here anymore and it's becoming intolerable. It will end up affecting my performance eventually and I need to be out before I get there. There's safety in my position that I may not have elsewhere and I don't expect to have much luck with so many others out of work and clawing over each other for any opening, but I have to try and keep trying until I succeed.

2020 is the year that keeps on giving.

The most frustrating part is most of them don't even give you any feedback, not even "we decided not to move forward..."

Usually, those that you apply directly on their website will at least send a form letter back.

If you used LinkedIn Easy-Apply or ZipRecruiter's one-click? Zero-Feedback. Apparently it's also very easy for them to reject you with no feedback.

That "zoom interview" I went on hadn't followed up with anything in week and a half. I'm not holding out much hope at this point.

Went on a Google meet interview where some company in Toronto wanted local IT workers they can send out to local clients in SF Bay Area. The guy won't even show his face. I'm feeling super skeezy about this one, as it's clear he has no tech background when he doesn't understand what my resume meant. I'm not about to correct him. I pressed for some details but he won't name his clients. I think I'll just refuse to sign his employee agreement. At least I didn't give him my social yet.

I turned down a daily editing gig with The Conversation. They wanted me to work 3 hours every evening for $30/hr. Hahaha nope. I already have a little more work than I really want, I can do it on my own schedule, and it pays better than that.

Just as well, you wouldn't have liked where it led.

One guy wrote back asking for an "updated resume", which is weird because I have uploaded the most recent version for the ZipRecruiter profile. So I sent him the latest again.

He wrote back "I don't see any relevant experience." It's for a tech support position.

Apparently, experience gained over 10 years ago doesn't count.

In that case, I am completely ****ed.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:37 amApparently, experience gained over 10 years ago doesn't count.

The themes in tech support have not changed, but the fine details of how it all clicks together have - and lots of new things have come about. The differences between Server 2008 and Server 2019 aren't staggering on the surface, but one has a lot more features and functions with different methods of accessing them. Everything's virtual now, and much has been moved to the cloud. Managing a mixed infrastructure, local and cloud, is an essential skill and many employers are seeking tech people with both Administrative experience and Development mentality. DevOps is a relatively new invention, and it marries together a development mindset with the operational skillset of a tech. It doesn't surprise me that a recruiter with lots of options would scoff at experience from 10 years ago. There's a lot of catch up that would need to be done, and even if you're current it can take a month or more to settle completely into a new environment.

Where I work, I'm pricing out a total infrastructure overhaul. Nothing here has been updated in 8 years. I'm going to be moving from Server 2008R2 to Server 2019. From Exchange 2010 to Exchange 2019. For the first time in my career, I may succeed in pitching a move to the cloud. The overhaul is going to cost a minimum of $20,000 to keep it local, in my server rack. I'm in the middle of pricing out replacement services in the cloud, and as long as the break-even point exceeds 5 years, I may be able to get it. I'd prefer to move away from constant hardware refreshes (or more like businesses refusing to refresh when they should).

You'd be welcome to take my job, if I can get out of it.

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:48 am

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:37 amApparently, experience gained over 10 years ago doesn't count.

The themes in tech support have not changed, but the fine details of how it all clicks together have - and lots of new things have come about. The differences between Server 2008 and Server 2019 aren't staggering on the surface, but one has a lot more features and functions with different methods of accessing them. Everything's virtual now, and much has been moved to the cloud. Managing a mixed infrastructure, local and cloud, is an essential skill and many employers are seeking tech people with both Administrative experience and Development mentality. DevOps is a relatively new invention, and it marries together a development mindset with the operational skillset of a tech. It doesn't surprise me that a recruiter with lots of options would scoff at experience from 10 years ago. There's a lot of catch up that would need to be done, and even if you're current it can take a month or more to settle completely into a new environment.

But they are interviewing for tech support - not DevOps or sysadmin or anything where you are actually responsible for implementing or developing anything new. I guess it depends on what you are supporting: obviously you may need some baseline knowledge, but the main skill in tech support is the ability to analyze and troubleshoot, not the latest A+ certification.

I would think that 'tech support' covers an extremely wide base of things.
Does the job description supply any further detail?

gilraen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:22 pmthe main skill in tech support is the ability to analyze and troubleshoot, not the latest A+ certification.

I've been seeing some damned outlandish IT job descriptions in the last 2-3 years.

Tier 1 Help Desk: Must be able to troubleshoot printers, desktops, servers, satellites, and mars rovers. Must have mastered Java, C#, and COBOL. Masters degree preferred, 10+ years experience with tech that came out last year a plus.

I think too many employers have had a unicorn on staff and expect everyone else to be a unicorn too. You can't just be a thoroughbred horse anymore, nor can you show up with a plastic horn on your head and painted rainbow stripes.

Try tech support temp agencies or call center jobs?

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:35 pm

gilraen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:22 pmthe main skill in tech support is the ability to analyze and troubleshoot, not the latest A+ certification.

I've been seeing some damned outlandish IT job descriptions in the last 2-3 years.

Tier 1 Help Desk: Must be able to troubleshoot printers, desktops, servers, satellites, and mars rovers. Must have mastered Java, C#, and COBOL. Masters degree preferred, 10+ years experience with tech that came out last year a plus.

"Pays up to $16/hr!"

I'm sure we've all seen enough LinkedIn job ads that advertise an "entry-level" programming position that requires 7 years experience. But even 3-years for an entry-level is hilarious.

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:35 pm

gilraen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:22 pmthe main skill in tech support is the ability to analyze and troubleshoot, not the latest A+ certification.

I've been seeing some damned outlandish IT job descriptions in the last 2-3 years.

Tier 1 Help Desk: Must be able to troubleshoot printers, desktops, servers, satellites, and mars rovers. Must have mastered Java, C#, and COBOL. Masters degree preferred, 10+ years experience with tech that came out last year a plus.

I think too many employers have had a unicorn on staff and expect everyone else to be a unicorn too. You can't just be a thoroughbred horse anymore, nor can you show up with a plastic horn on your head and painted rainbow stripes.

A recruiter called me once about a job requiring a MSCE, CCNP, CNE, Oracle DBA and a handful of additional certs. For a part time gig paying $19/per hour because the genius in charge fired their network engineer after the network was built on the assumption it would run forever with no maintenance. I laughed at the recruiter and advised her to not bother insulting professionals by attempting to recruit that job, her client deserved whatever doom they were in for.

So 3 1/2 months living the dream...I've had 3 interviews, all with recruiters. All were in agreement I was substantially underpaid at my last job (no surprise there) but none have called back with actual jobs to apply for. Otherwise I've been finding 1-2 reasonably good matches per week to apply for, got approximately zero call-backs but several have given me the courtesy of a fuck-off email. I don't ever start holding my breath at the submission phase of the game, so these rejection notices serve as a brief reminder that yes, I did apply there and no, I should not apply there ever again.

stimpy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:28 pm I would think that 'tech support' covers an extremely wide base of things.
Does the job description supply any further detail?

here you go:

Technician provides hands-on support for field service support/maintenance of end user devices within the hospital, clinic and administrative areas, including computing and communications of devices deployed throughout Children’s Hospital Oakland. This position interacts with physicians, nurses, and a broad array of others including administrative personnel, other IT groups, external departments, vendors, and consultants requiring both sound technical and outstanding customer service skills (highly professional, courteous, and patient disposition.) The Technician ensures for the timely completion of appropriate proactive maintenance activities and reactive incident resolution processes necessary to maintain the customer IT device environment. This includes corrective action in the resolution of incidents, change management, and escalation/notification processes as appropriate.

Technical Knowledge: Expertise in end user devices including the latest Windows OS and Macintosh OS desktop/laptops and MS Office; familiar with handheld devices such as iPhones, iPad, and Android devices, and video conferencing end points. Ability to troubleshoot and support network connections for workstations and printers, VPN, and wireless environments. Fluent in technical terminology with a solid understanding of the interrelationship of software, hardware, and network environments.

I admit I'm a bit weak on the MacOS front, as I don't own a Mac, but it's not *THAT* different. I have supported iPhones and I personally own three tablets, a bunch of SmartHome devices, and a good Windows PC. I did all the Wifi network myself, and I used to run coax cables, not just cat5, around networks. I configure my own routers and setup my own port forwarding. The stuff named? Pffft, practically child's play. Well, maybe the video conferencing can be a little troubling, until I get my hands on a manual and go config the router and firewall.

The problem is you can't convince those recruiters that you know all these things. Most of these recruiters are not tech-savvy. They don't know **** about tech. They just want the referral fee. They only want to see recent experience in the exact same job.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 pm They only want to see recent experience in the exact same job.

This is more an issue with HR people at their actual client. They are given specs to look for, and do not know when someone not claiming those specs are nevertheless a good candidate. My personal experience with that was the time I applied for a network engineering job with Bearingpoint. I had just come off a contract job where I worked with their CCIE candidate to configure all of the hardware I'd be tasked with maintaining. I still had the configurations for their Cisco 6400's on my PDA (this was pre-smart phone), so I had intimate knowledge of their equipment. But I didn't have the certs, only experience and never even got a response from the application.

Which is why networking adds a bunch of bonus dice to your rolls.

Okay, the earlier virtual interview is toast. They hadn't called back or even reached out with email in THREE weeks, when they promised callback within two.

Fortunately, I do have another virtual interview next Tuesday... with the city. It's more support than webdev, but the official title is "senior application developer", though the description is more support than dev. We shall see. *sigh*

Still applying, but it's fairly discouraging, as my webdev ain't enough to get hired, and my tech support skills from a decade ago was viewed as out of date. That means I am basically only good for grunt work. *sigh* and the money I spent on bootcamp wasted.

The void swallows another one...

Well, I have survived the reaper's axe yet again. Just went through another round of layoffs at work, numbers estimated in the 2-3K range. Our division was one of the last to start, so it's been kind of pins and needles for a bit now. We lost one person on our team, and 3 others have to take skills assessment tests to see if they are going to survive the cut. We're expecting to lose at least one more person.

I was actually kind of nervous about this one. Over 30 years with the company, and what they call a "highly compensated employee." I'm a big target in times of cost reductions.

10 more years until I can retire. Fingers crossed.

I think I bombed today's interview. Well, back to revising my LinkedIn and GitHub stuff and get back to sending out more applications.

hentzau wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:50 pm take skills assessment tests to see if they are going to survive the cut.

I can't imagine having to prove I can do my job to keep my job, despite having been doing my job. I suppose this is a way to try and weed out the weakest links in the chain, but man ... I'd be shitting bricks if someone told me I had to take a test and score higher than my co-workers in order to keep putting food on the table for my family.

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:58 am

hentzau wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:50 pm take skills assessment tests to see if they are going to survive the cut.

I can't imagine having to prove I can do my job to keep my job, despite having been doing my job. I suppose this is a way to try and weed out the weakest links in the chain, but man ... I'd be shitting bricks if someone told me I had to take a test and score higher than my co-workers in order to keep putting food on the table for my family.

So they told us the scoring for whether you would be let go would be 65% on how you scored on your last two reviews, 30% on the skills assessment, and 5% tenure. Still not sure how all of it will shake out.

And I think it's kind of shitty that they targeted people for the assessment. I think they should have had everyone take it, so those folks that were targeted didn't feel singled out. Like one of my engineers that has to take it is a great engineer, has had nothing but exceeds on here reviews, but she got targeted because...reasons.

When I watch elimination competitions on Netflix, it's entertaining. When I hear about them in the workplace, it's depressing.

They really should have had all folks take it. I've worked in places where that sort of impartiality would have still wiped out the lowest rungs without anyone holding them down first.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:43 pm The most frustrating part is most of them don't even give you any feedback, not even "we decided not to move forward..."

Usually, those that you apply directly on their website will at least send a form letter back.

If you used LinkedIn Easy-Apply or ZipRecruiter's one-click? Zero-Feedback. Apparently it's also very easy for them to reject you with no feedback.

That "zoom interview" I went on hadn't followed up with anything in week and a half. I'm not holding out much hope at this point.

Went on a Google meet interview where some company in Toronto wanted local IT workers they can send out to local clients in SF Bay Area. The guy won't even show his face. I'm feeling super skeezy about this one, as it's clear he has no tech background when he doesn't understand what my resume meant. I'm not about to correct him. I pressed for some details but he won't name his clients. I think I'll just refuse to sign his employee agreement. At least I didn't give him my social yet.

I'm in the Toronto area; what's the company name that interviewed you?

Ever heard of OfficeIQ? Me neither. I can't find anything on it. I didn't sign his agreement, and he never got back to me. I don't think it's a legit company. Could be that he's just using a Toronto number.

Got two callbacks... one wanted me to fill out a psychological profile (you know, they ask for for 2 words you "mostly agree with" out of 4) but it seems legit (except for the "you can buy your personalized profile for $49.95" part) . The other had me fill out my profile. which they claim will be forwarded to a MAJOR tech company here in the city. So... we shall see.

One of those tentative fingers-crossed moments. I get an email from someone on LinkedIn offering me a shot at a job two rungs below what I do now, so I let him down gently and say I'm looking at a different career trajectory. Three days later he comes back with a possibility that's exactly 1 step up, which is the type of start I've been looking for to help build more management experience - going from solo IT guy to running a small help desk team. I've proven I can run a network and support a business, but not that I can lead people. I have prior management experience, but very little managing IT folks. I need more of that.

So - fingers lightly crossed. He's a tech recruiter and I know they often play with smoke and mirrors.

*Edit: Spoke with the recruiter. I was able to determine that he's trying to sell me on a "Contract to Hire" opportunity - meaning I'd be on his firm's payroll until the client felt like hiring me (or whoever) four months down the road. I'm not at all sure how a department manager gets invested in a company when they're working hourly for a different company. He seemed excited to have me as an option for his client, though, and asked if I might reconsider if he got the client to agree to a direct hire. Of course. That's what I want - an actual full time job, like I have now. I'm not looking to trade in stability for instability right now.

Still it's a red flag to me that whoever his client is wants an easy out and/or potential for short term employees. That's not a good start to a long term relationship.

Try before you buy is a common thing in IT. I agree though that it's tough to take a flyer on something based on a future status change when you already have something stable. I turned down such offers when I was still employed, but in my current situation what do I have to lose? My last job started as a contract gig for a company undergoing an acquisition, and the job wound up lasting 10 years (and turned permanent in just over 3 months).

Will chime in that mrs-dfs went from contract to hire many moons ago. It's not the nicest niche, but it exists. It gives both sides a try-before-you-buy period.

When I first moved to this area I got a job replacing a contract hire. Having him teach me to do the job was awkward.

Going into the end days of my current contract with NVIDIA, I'm working more hours than I like to do. When I closed my laptop yesterday I had my intray down to 60 sessions. When I opened it this morning, it was at 74. After an hour and a half I'd knocked it back down to 56. I'm working a lot faster than I'd estimated and am still below the hours that I quoted them, but treading water is frustrating. Got about a week left to finish this up...at some point they have to stop adding new sessions.

I had the foresight to make them add a 50% overrun contingency to their purchase order. My quote was based on 200 sessions and 50 hours. I'm at 375 sessions and 37 hours, so IDK yet if I'm going to trigger it (the hours are what matter to me). I'm working twice as fast as I planned because I'm a paragraph factory, but I'm also getting burned out, and not sure I can rally for the last-week crunch (with my other workload, I struggle to carve out 2 hours a day for them, and it's mind-numbing work). OTOH, lately I've been finding money useful enough to want more of it. NVIDIA has bottomless pockets and I have a PO with an overflow clause.

It gets really annoying when the recruiter rejects your resume for a position you think you qualify for, without ANY feedback.

It gets even MORE annoying when recruiters want to recruit you for EVEN LAMER jobs.

I know I haven't worked IT in like 10 years, and my full-stack qualifications are out of a bootcamp. But that's NOT a reason to offer me a job driving around town collecting ballot boxes, just because my most recent job was a driving job!

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:53 pmTry before you buy is a common thing in IT. I agree though that it's tough to take a flyer on something based on a future status change when you already have something stable.

In the ~15 years I've been doing IT, the only contract work I've seen where I live has been purely temporary. Around these parts, they tend to just hire.

The other thing I've seen was "Temp to Hire" which I suppose is essentially the same thing. That was one of my first jobs, and it didn't end well. I hit all the marks and did the job to his standards, but the IT Director dumped me at the end of the trial period (2 months) with a dismissive wave of his hand and no explanation except that he didn't feel I "grabbed the bull by the horns" enough. Right up until he terminated me I felt that he gave me the impression that he was happy with my performance. No warnings, no problems, no talks. Every task he gave me was accomplished on time and in scope. I just wasn't the person he wanted.

So I may be a little sour on the concept of companies wanting to test-drive people for months before committing. It's a risk I can't take with a mortgage, bills, and two kids.

I know it's possible for a company to can me with no warning or reason after hiring me. I still prefer them to be more decisive in hiring. It demonstrates a commitment to the role in the company, at least.

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:50 pm I'm working twice as fast as I planned because I'm a paragraph factory, but I'm also getting burned out

I've got an idea!

Stop working so fast and give us more updates on the cat.

One paragraph otta due.

dfs wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:35 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:50 pm I'm working twice as fast as I planned because I'm a paragraph factory, but I'm also getting burned out

I've got an idea!

Stop working so fast and give us more updates on the cat.

OK, I'll update that thread tonight.

I found out a little more about that "opportunity" I declined.

It's a massive project rollout with a team of 10+ working on 1,000 computers with software apps over 4 months. The catch is that you're shitcanned and on the street after 4 months when the deployment ends.

In normal times, a thing like that should have had a nibble. Right now everyone is so focused on holding their careers intact against COVID that no one's sniffing at it. Two different recruitment agencies are hitting ads on this and getting no takers.

I find this interesting.