Octopus Overlords

El Guapo wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:40 pm Ugh so....it was bad?

I've only seen 'high'lights, but yes. Just casual platforming of Trump's BS through and through.

I'm sure people will debate that it was bad for Trump, or good for Biden, or whatever but hands down America lost tonight. Whether or not we pull through, this country is not going to be decent for many years. It is a sad, despicable place. A day after the man was found liable of sexually assaulting someone he was on stage smearing her name to laughter and cheering. We're a moral disgrace for the ages.

Not just assaulting, but defaming. So he got up and defamed a bunch more, because consequences something something.

I didn't think all that highly of CNN before today, but now it is utterly dead to me. I cannot believe they did this.

Is it just wishful thinking that broadcasting that performance might repel more CNN viewers than it pleased?

Not defending their decision, just looking for a silver lining.

Kraken wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:07 am Is it just wishful thinking that broadcasting that performance might repel more CNN viewers than it pleased?

Not defending their decision, just looking for a silver lining.

It's possible but it was not worth the risk.

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:50 am

Kraken wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:07 am Is it just wishful thinking that broadcasting that performance might repel more CNN viewers than it pleased?

Not defending their decision, just looking for a silver lining.

It's possible but it was not worth the risk.

I agree, but HCR reinforced my speculation in today's post:

More important, though, while Trump’s base will love his performance, watching his lies and cruelty while his supporters laugh and cheer him on will remind voters of exactly what they worked so hard to reject in 2020. A Biden campaign advisor told NBC News White House correspondent Mike Memoli: “Weeks worth of damning content in one hour…. It was quite efficient." It might turn out that, as journalist Ana Navarro-Cárdenas tweeted, “[Joe Biden] is the winner of tonight’s town-hall.”
As Biden tweeted after the performance: “It’s simple, folks. Do you want four more years of that?”

Heather Cox Richardson is smarter than me and probably you, too, so I choose to take comfort.

Democratic strategists (less HCR and more the other two) don't top my list of people who make good political predictions. But "rejected in 2020" was more like ... lost a coin flip. I'm not saying Trump is a ~49% coin flip next year but we're still seeing the media making the same mistakes they made in 2016.

In any case, all I see here are empty rationalizations. They are cheering about intangibles like his electability when we should all instead be hearing them talking in stark terms about the extreme risk we face. We should not feel "comforted" in any regard based on what happened last night.

malchior wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 10:59 amI'm solely talking about the people who are hunting for excuses without knowing the facts. That's what I find exceptionally gross.

Now that we have more information, sure. But if you’re at all referring to my comment above, the ‘facts’ right after it happened were that the guy was yelling and threatening to do something to people that would land him in jail.

Someone took violent/defensive/offensive action, and now it seems pretty obvious that they went way, way too far.

If someone is still defending the action taken after having read that a fellow passenger was begging the guy to stop after threat was subdued, and that he was killing him, then yeah, gross IMO.

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:42 am Democratic strategists (less HCR and more the other two) don't top my list of people who make good political predictions. But "rejected in 2020" was more like ... lost a coin flip. I'm not saying Trump is a ~49% coin flip next year but we're still seeing the media making the same mistakes they made in 2016.

In any case, all I see here are empty rationalizations. They are cheering about intangibles like his electability when we should all instead be hearing them talking in stark terms about the extreme risk we face. We should not feel "comforted" in any regard based on what happened last night.

Yeah, it's bad. To the extent that there's a silver lining here I think it's that a lot of people are still in denial that Trump 2024 is happening and that Trump is a virtual lock to get the GOP nomination, even with all the shit that's happened and is happening. I think this town hall will be a wake up call to a lot of people who are mildlly politically engaged. Also CNN is taking a ton of shit for this, so I'm hoping that this will be a cautionary tale to other mainstream media outlets.

Doesn't make it worth it, of course, but FWIW.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:24 am

malchior wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 10:59 amI'm solely talking about the people who are hunting for excuses without knowing the facts. That's what I find exceptionally gross.

Now that we have more information, sure. But if you’re at all referring to my comment above, the ‘facts’ right after it happened were that the guy was yelling and threatening to do something to people that would land him in jail.

Nope - I'm referring to the contemporary news where everyone was demonizing the dead and lauding the aggressor as a hero all while expressing their biases about how it was probably justified because they hate the homeless.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:34 amAlso CNN is taking a ton of shit for this, so I'm hoping that this will be a cautionary tale to other mainstream media outlets.

We'll see but I'm going to take some credit and say I've been pretty prescient about this. My take here is that the media as a group is extraordinarily arrogant. To the point of major dysfunction. They love Trump because at a higher order the big media outfits and many of the top journalists are just as malignantly narcissistic as him. Trump might not know this explicitly but he has long aligned with them naturally. That is why he so easily controls them. They are in a synergistic (symbiotic?) relationship. Sorry to piss again on a silver lining, but I don't predict they will take it as a cautionary tale but instead they will take it as a roadmap to driving attentions and clicks. As Smoove_B said - it's all about the money.

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:00 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:34 amAlso CNN is taking a ton of shit for this, so I'm hoping that this will be a cautionary tale to other mainstream media outlets.

We'll see but I'm going to take some credit and say I've been pretty prescient about this. My take here is that the media as a group is extraordinarily arrogant. To the point of major dysfunction. They love Trump because at a higher order the big media outfits and many of the top journalists are just as malignantly narcissistic as him. Trump might not know this explicitly but he has long aligned with them naturally. That is why he so easily controls them. They are in a synergistic (symbiotic?) relationship. Sorry to piss again on a silver lining, but I don't predict they will take it as a cautionary tale but instead they will take it as a roadmap to driving attentions and clicks. As Smoove_B said - it's all about the money.

I know it's wishful thinking, and also that Licht professionally has to defend the Town Hall because it's associated with him, but I'm just hoping that the shit gives people within media institutions at least some ammo to oppose this type of thing in internal discussions. Probably hoping against hope, though.

I do also hope that this is a wake up call to people that we really are doing Trump 2024, regardless.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:52 am I do also hope that this is a wake up call to people that we really are doing Trump 2024, regardless.

And if he loses, Trump 2028.

stessier wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:14 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:52 am I do also hope that this is a wake up call to people that we really are doing Trump 2024, regardless.

And if he loses, Trump 2028.

Either way, really.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:52 am

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:00 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:34 amAlso CNN is taking a ton of shit for this, so I'm hoping that this will be a cautionary tale to other mainstream media outlets.

We'll see but I'm going to take some credit and say I've been pretty prescient about this. My take here is that the media as a group is extraordinarily arrogant. To the point of major dysfunction. They love Trump because at a higher order the big media outfits and many of the top journalists are just as malignantly narcissistic as him. Trump might not know this explicitly but he has long aligned with them naturally. That is why he so easily controls them. They are in a synergistic (symbiotic?) relationship. Sorry to piss again on a silver lining, but I don't predict they will take it as a cautionary tale but instead they will take it as a roadmap to driving attentions and clicks. As Smoove_B said - it's all about the money.

I know it's wishful thinking, and also that Licht professionally has to defend the Town Hall because it's associated with him, but I'm just hoping that the shit gives people within media institutions at least some ammo to oppose this type of thing in internal discussions. Probably hoping against hope, though.

I do also hope that this is a wake up call to people that we really are doing Trump 2024, regardless.

I’m sorry. Who the fuck thought Trump was NOT going to be the GOP candidate for President of the United States in 2024? The only way that wasn’t happening was if he (1) died or (2) was behind bars, and really, even (2) didn’t rule out him running.

I’m just shaking my head at the takes that are “Well, now people know what we’re dealing with” or “The CNN town hall will wake people up.”

If people weren’t awake and scared to death by Trump 2024 before the CNN town hall, they’re not going to be today.

Kurth wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 11:33 pm I didn't think all that highly of CNN before today, but now it is utterly dead to me. I cannot believe they did this.

CNN is good for breaking stories, but any 24-hour news network has to do something for eyeballs and advertisers when there isn't something of immediate significance happening. If I want TV News, it's usually BBC America on PBS, or the hour long PBS Newshour.

Kurth wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:19 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:52 am

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:00 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 9:34 amAlso CNN is taking a ton of shit for this, so I'm hoping that this will be a cautionary tale to other mainstream media outlets.

We'll see but I'm going to take some credit and say I've been pretty prescient about this. My take here is that the media as a group is extraordinarily arrogant. To the point of major dysfunction. They love Trump because at a higher order the big media outfits and many of the top journalists are just as malignantly narcissistic as him. Trump might not know this explicitly but he has long aligned with them naturally. That is why he so easily controls them. They are in a synergistic (symbiotic?) relationship. Sorry to piss again on a silver lining, but I don't predict they will take it as a cautionary tale but instead they will take it as a roadmap to driving attentions and clicks. As Smoove_B said - it's all about the money.

I know it's wishful thinking, and also that Licht professionally has to defend the Town Hall because it's associated with him, but I'm just hoping that the shit gives people within media institutions at least some ammo to oppose this type of thing in internal discussions. Probably hoping against hope, though.

I do also hope that this is a wake up call to people that we really are doing Trump 2024, regardless.

I’m sorry. Who the fuck thought Trump was NOT going to be the GOP candidate for President of the United States in 2024? The only way that wasn’t happening was if he (1) died or (2) was behind bars, and really, even (2) didn’t rule out him running.

I’m just shaking my head at the takes that are “Well, now people know what we’re dealing with” or “The CNN town hall will wake people up.”

If people weren’t awake and scared to death by Trump 2024 before the CNN town hall, they’re not going to be today.

I think no one *should* be surprised. But extrapolating a bit from my experience talking to people in Massachusetts, I think that there are a lot of low-information voters in blue states that are not thinking about Trump on a day to day basis because he's not president, and so are mostly absorbing Trump stories like "DOJ is investigating Trump - will they indict him?" and "NY DA Indicts Trump" and "Georgia may indict Trump." I really think that a lot of those people don't understand / aren't grappling with the reality that Trump is a prohibitive favorite to be the 2024 GOP nominee - and to be fair, a lot of that is because it makes no damn sense.

Of course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:33 amOf course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

But this isn't going to get them closer to understanding the problem. What they'll hear is a meta story the media is feasting on now. Trump said crazy stuff and and talk about why did CNN allow it. We need to really by focusing on the risk outcomes and none of this gets us there.

What we also learned is the media has surrendered to the storm. They are going to monetize it. And they don't care about high fallutin' values like integrity or service.

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:50 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:33 amOf course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

But this isn't going to get them closer to understanding the problem. What they'll hear is a meta story the media is feasting on now. Trump said crazy stuff and and talk about why did CNN allow it. We need to really by focusing on the risk outcomes and none of this gets us there.

What we also learned is the media has surrendered to the storm. They are going to monetize it. And they don't care about high fallutin' values like integrity or service.

What we really need to be focused on is whether a man who openly attempted to subvert democracy should be permitted to run for reelection to the highest office in that democracy.

It's a bizarro story: Man attempts to overthrow democratically elected government and fails. Democracy shrugs and invites him to try again.

If ever a historical account of this is written - and I don't mean the kind that might appear in a FL or TX textbook - objective observers will look at this and be utterly astounded we let this come to pass. And CNN's "Town Hall" will be a main exhibit in the chronicling of our idiocy.

Kurth wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:28 pm

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:50 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:33 amOf course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

But this isn't going to get them closer to understanding the problem. What they'll hear is a meta story the media is feasting on now. Trump said crazy stuff and and talk about why did CNN allow it. We need to really by focusing on the risk outcomes and none of this gets us there.

What we also learned is the media has surrendered to the storm. They are going to monetize it. And they don't care about high fallutin' values like integrity or service.

What we really need to be focused on is whether a man who openly attempted to subvert democracy should be permitted to run for reelection to the highest office in that democracy.

It's a bizarro story: Man attempts to overthrow democratically elected government and fails. Democracy shrugs and invites him to try again.

If ever a historical account of this is written - and I don't mean the kind that might appear in a FL or TX textbook - objective observers will look at this and be utterly astounded we let this come to pass. And CNN's "Town Hall" will be a main exhibit in the chronicling of our idiocy.

It's happened before, the Beer Hall Revolution comes to mind.

Kurth wrote:

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:50 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:33 amOf course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

But this isn't going to get them closer to understanding the problem. What they'll hear is a meta story the media is feasting on now. Trump said crazy stuff and and talk about why did CNN allow it. We need to really by focusing on the risk outcomes and none of this gets us there.

What we also learned is the media has surrendered to the storm. They are going to monetize it. And they don't care about high fallutin' values like integrity or service.

What we really need to be focused on is whether a man who openly attempted to subvert democracy should be permitted to run for reelection to the highest office in that democracy.

It's a bizarro story: Man attempts to overthrow democratically elected government and fails. Democracy shrugs and invites him to try again.

If ever a historical account of this is written - and I don't mean the kind that might appear in a FL or TX textbook - objective observers will look at this and be utterly astounded we let this come to pass. And CNN's "Town Hall" will be a main exhibit in the chronicling of our idiocy.

Actually, it's those who would vote for him again after all that who we need to be concerned about.

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Scraper wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:41 pm

Kurth wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:28 pm

malchior wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:50 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:33 amOf course generally you won't go broke betting on people to be passive and ignorant going forward, but I think this story is going to break through to a lot of people who haven't been following the 2024 campaign so far.

But this isn't going to get them closer to understanding the problem. What they'll hear is a meta story the media is feasting on now. Trump said crazy stuff and and talk about why did CNN allow it. We need to really by focusing on the risk outcomes and none of this gets us there.

What we also learned is the media has surrendered to the storm. They are going to monetize it. And they don't care about high fallutin' values like integrity or service.

What we really need to be focused on is whether a man who openly attempted to subvert democracy should be permitted to run for reelection to the highest office in that democracy.

It's a bizarro story: Man attempts to overthrow democratically elected government and fails. Democracy shrugs and invites him to try again.

If ever a historical account of this is written - and I don't mean the kind that might appear in a FL or TX textbook - objective observers will look at this and be utterly astounded we let this come to pass. And CNN's "Town Hall" will be a main exhibit in the chronicling of our idiocy.

It's happened before, the Beer Hall Revolution comes to mind.

Hugo Chavez too - failed military coup, then was democratically elected.

Pyperkub wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:43 pm Actually, it's those who would vote for him again after all that who we need to be concerned about.

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This. America has a big problem, and as it turns out, that big problem is America.

Great piece at The Atlantic that lays out how this was the aftermath of CNN waving the white flag but also aligns with my point that the media is monetizing its ability to create controversy.

I am pretty sure it is actually CNNs job to make money. Simply reporting the news doesn't make that much money. Investigative journalism might make more money but it's also more expensive. Inviting a controversial figure to spew BS and hate for an hour, now there you're making some money!

coopasonic wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 10:44 am I am pretty sure it is actually CNNs job to make money. Simply reporting the news doesn't make that much money. Investigative journalism might make more money but it's also more expensive. Inviting a controversial figure to spew BS and hate for an hour, now there you're making some money!

Therein lies the problem with the news.

It’s neither new, nor news. Maybe I’m just a cynical old fart, but Jon Stewart has been calling out the media on this stuff for decades. Including CNN. Loudly, often. In their faces in serious interviews, and half mockingly on his show.

I just don’t get the shock, at this stage in the game.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 12:56 pm It’s neither new, nor news. Maybe I’m just a cynical old fart, but Jon Stewart has been calling out the media on this stuff for decades. Including CNN. Loudly, often. In their faces in serious interviews, and half mockingly on his show.

I just don’t get the shock, at this stage in the game.

Bingo.
Media doing media stuff and people choose to either embrace it, ignore it or get outraged by it.

I am not sure I'd label what's happening here as outrage. Instead, I think there's a real recognition that for a while we (collectively) suspecting things were hinky. Then, in 2015/2016, we saw evidence of malfeasance. Having living through that ~6 year stretch, I think what we're voicing is surprise that knowing how the last run ended, no lessons were learned and exactly the same pattern is re-emerging.

Again, none of it makes sense until you realize it's all about money.

malchior wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 10:28 am Great piece at The Atlantic that lays out how this was the aftermath of CNN waving the white flag but also aligns with my point that the media is monetizing its ability to create controversy.

A tweet *isn't* the article from the Atlantic. grr. this is

The Worst Thing to Come Out of Trump’s Town Hall Didn’t Come From Trump

When CNN treated its event as a means of making news, it had already lost the battle.

Sorry, Anne, you’re so horribly, horribly wrong. CNN’s job is to make money. Just because you think their job SHOULD be some outdated, idealistic concept of Journalism, doesn’t make it true.

Pyperkub wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:26 pm A tweet *isn't* the article from the Atlantic. grr. this is

Am I missing something? That's the same link that malchior put in his post before posting the tweet, isn't it?

coopasonic wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 10:44 am I am pretty sure it is actually CNNs job to make money. Simply reporting the news doesn't make that much money. Investigative journalism might make more money but it's also more expensive. Inviting a controversial figure to spew BS and hate for an hour, now there you're making some money!

Time to pull any special laws, rules and regulations that only apply to "journalism/press" then. If they are not going to fulfill their role, why bother giving them special protections? In fact start applying all the laws that apply to the advertising industry.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 12:56 pm It’s neither new, nor news. Maybe I’m just a cynical old fart, but Jon Stewart has been calling out the media on this stuff for decades. Including CNN. Loudly, often. In their faces in serious interviews, and half mockingly on his show.

I just don’t get the shock, at this stage in the game.

I think there's a big difference between news and opinion shows. The first thing John went after that I recall was crossfire. That wasn't news. It was performance art disguised.

If there is no distinction, why bother calling any of it news or even journalism?

Having Cooper defend this nonsense just dropped him from my semi-serious journalist list. He suggested we can stop watching. I think I'll take him up on that suggestion.

ImLawBoy wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:03 pm

Pyperkub wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:26 pm A tweet *isn't* the article from the Atlantic. grr. this is

Am I missing something? That's the same link that malchior put in his post before posting the tweet, isn't it?

Yeah it is (sorry Malchior) - it's just that without a quote I didn't notice until I was hitting submit on my quote post...

(and it's a peeve of mine because tweet links are blocked with my ad/tracking blockers until I click them).

GreenGoo wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:31 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 12:56 pm It’s neither new, nor news. Maybe I’m just a cynical old fart, but Jon Stewart has been calling out the media on this stuff for decades. Including CNN. Loudly, often. In their faces in serious interviews, and half mockingly on his show.

I just don’t get the shock, at this stage in the game.

I think there's a big difference between news and opinion shows. The first thing John went after that I recall was crossfire. That wasn't news. It was performance art disguised.

If there is no distinction, why bother calling any of it news or even journalism?

Having Cooper defend this nonsense just dropped him from my semi-serious journalist list. He suggested we can stop watching. I think I'll take him up on that suggestion.

TBH, the viewership needs of a 24-hour news network blur the lines between news and opinion, because the latter is FAR more likely to both drive ratings and is much easier to generate (as we've seen, shooting your mouth off is the most common opinion show driver).

I was just pushing back against "this is nothing new".

While it's true, the Tucker Carlson's of the world have always existed, it wasn't that long ago that even Fox's news division was somewhat respectable.

I’ll rephrase: that our publicly traded media companies whose sole responsibility is making money for shareholders, in the most iconic Capitalist country in history, are in it for the money rather than some kind of public service, is not new.

Sure. There's lots of ways to make money.