The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

[LordMortis]

To clarify, Trump can’t fire Mueller. He has to fire the people that won’t fire Mueller, and then appoint people and have them confirmed that will fire Mueller.

To clarify further, yes Trump can directly fire Mueller.

There's a lengthy twitter thread by one of the lawyers that wrote the Special Counsel rules, and they allow the President to fire Mueller directly. He also notes that doing so would immediately trigger a Constitutional Crisis. Which I don't agree with, since I think that the GOP would be complicit in the firing and nothing at all would happen from it.

Except that "nothing" would be the crisis. The step needed to move us from the little piece of Democracy that we have left into full fledged authoritarianism.

I tend to agree. If Congress lets Trump fire Mueller after closing their own investigation (while they still want more investigation of Clinton), I'm not sure if he becomes his majesty, his grace, der Fuher, or губернатор, but that's pretty much all she wrote. We are done, as a free nation, a nation of (relatively just) laws. (Which is not the same as saying Trump is guilty of collusion)

[El Guapo]

To clarify, Trump can’t fire Mueller. He has to fire the people that won’t fire Mueller, and then appoint people and have them confirmed that will fire Mueller.

To clarify further, yes Trump can directly fire Mueller.

There's a lengthy twitter thread by one of the lawyers that wrote the Special Counsel rules, and they allow the President to fire Mueller directly. He also notes that doing so would immediately trigger a Constitutional Crisis. Which I don't agree with, since I think that the GOP would be complicit in the firing and nothing at all would happen from it.

Could you post a link to that? I haven't seen that elsewhere. I have seen the idea posted that Trump (or possibly Sessions) could basically just put in place new special counsel rules that would allow him to fire Mueller directly

[Freyland]

There has to be better ways to present all this than epic Tweetstorms with post scripts and notes and everything else. It makes him come across as really self important.

Does it? When the person holding the most powerful seat in the world does it as a matter of routine, it comes across as the norm. The fact that his posting is at least more intelligent (not stating accurate, just intelligent) makes him seem downright sophisticated. But still the norm.

I actually hope that if we ever get past this part of our history, we eliminate social media as a Presidential communication route. That concept isn't without it's flaws, but Twitter access has really, really amplified Drumpf's inadequacies to the world stage.

[El Guapo]

Trump says he won't fire Mueller.

Not that Trump's word is worth anything, although it's oddly comforting, in that if Trump were getting ready to fire Mueller at the end of this week or sometime next week, you would think that he would be laying the groundwork / hedging this a little bit in his public statements. Stuff like "I really don't want to fire him, but I do have concerns", etc.

Kind of makes me wonder whether the Trump endgame on Mueller doesn't rely on firing him, but instead relies on the (widespread) assumption that Mueller can't indict Trump (at least not while he's a sitting president). So the possible plan might be to discredit Mueller as much as possible and make him look partisan. Mueller then indicts some people around Trump, but on Trump himself basically issues a report to Congress with his findings. But having painted Mueller as partisan, and floated other things that should be investigated (Clinton! Uranium One! The FBI!), the GOP Congress immediately goes to work muddying the waters, launching an inquiry that investigates the Mueller accusations plus all the shit that Trump has dredged up (obviously focusing more on the latter). They string it out and let it die looking like ordinary partisan infighting.

Whereas firing Mueller is risky, insofar as it would likely trigger massive and extended street protests. Not that anyone in the GOP is a real profile in courage at the moment, but it's plausible that that could lead to something like 51 votes in the Senate to hire Mueller to run the Senate investigation, or the like.

[Scoop20906]

I get people hate the scaremongering from liberals about Trump firing Mueller. It’s very easy to get whipped up into a frenzy. But I’m also shocked that we are anywhere close to the special counsel being fired by anyone. I remember the Republicans falling all over themselves to praise Mueller when he was appointed. Now that he is uncovering things they don’t like now the are attacking his credibility. Politics is such a dirty business.

If however somehow Mueller is shutdown or removed then we really are at a crisis that must be addressed by regular people and I fail to see how pointing this out is a bad thing.

[Holman]

I actually hope that if we ever get past this part of our history, we eliminate social media as a Presidential communication route. That concept isn't without it's flaws, but Twitter access has really, really amplified Drumpf's inadequacies to the world stage.

I think of this as Twitter's great virtue. For whatever reason, Trump has chosen it to continually reveal his inadequacy and put it beyond doubt.

In a perfect Republic, leaders would be required to justify their actions and express their opinions in their own words, unmediated by professional speechwriters and spokescreatures. Twitter isn't the next best thing, but in practice it's working out as maybe third of fourth.

[LordMortis]

It's OK Charlie. I got an angle.

<The prosecution calls Hanover Fiste>

[msteelers]

Trump says he won't fire Mueller.

Not that Trump's word is worth anything, although it's oddly comforting, in that if Trump were getting ready to fire Mueller at the end of this week or sometime next week, you would think that he would be laying the groundwork / hedging this a little bit in his public statements. Stuff like "I really don't want to fire him, but I do have concerns", etc.

Of course, he could be saying "I have no plans to fire Mueller. But I will tell other people to fire him, and will fire those people if they don't do as I say."

But we both know that at any given moment he just says what he thinks the person in front of him wants to hear.

[malchior]

There has to be better ways to present all this than epic Tweetstorms with post scripts and notes and everything else. It makes him come across as really self important.

I agree - it is I guess some odd attempt to be academic but the way he delivers content doesn't fit the approach.

[RunningMn9]

Could you post a link to that? I haven't seen that elsewhere. I have seen the idea posted that Trump (or possibly Sessions) could basically just put in place new special counsel rules that would allow him to fire Mueller directly

https://twitter.com/neal_katyal/status/ ... 1647353856

[Holman]

Trump says he won't fire Mueller.

Not that Trump's word is worth anything, although it's oddly comforting, in that if Trump were getting ready to fire Mueller at the end of this week or sometime next week, you would think that he would be laying the groundwork / hedging this a little bit in his public statements. Stuff like "I really don't want to fire him, but I do have concerns", etc.

Of course, he could be saying "I have no plans to fire Mueller. But I will tell other people to fire him, and will fire those people if they don't do as I say."

But we both know that at any given moment he just says what he thinks the person in front of him wants to hear.

Didn't he announce that he wouldn't fire Comey about three days before he fired Comey?

[LordMortis]

Didn't he announce that he wouldn't fire Comey about three days before he fired Comey?

That's my memory but my memory is flawed and citation seems impossible to find through all of the noise.

[pr0ner]

There has to be better ways to present all this than epic Tweetstorms with post scripts and notes and everything else. It makes him come across as really self important.

I agree - it is I guess some odd attempt to be academic but the way he delivers content doesn't fit the approach.

Speaking of which, GQ considers Abramson one of the LEAST influential people of 2017, lumping him in with Louise Mensch and Eric "GAME THEORY" Garland.

Seriously, every time someone I otherwise respect retweets one of these loons, I audibly groan. Donald Trump has openly committed roughly 78,000 impeachable offenses. There’s no curtain you need to peek behind, and these three certainly don’t have the access to do so anyway. Stop enabling them. Following Abramson is like subscribing to the worst podcast in world history. “Okay, so you already know about Sergei Cutyurkokov from my August 13th tweetstorm, now here is how he ties into the GORGOV MEETING 1/670.” I’m barely exaggerating here.

[El Guapo]

Trump says he won't fire Mueller.

Not that Trump's word is worth anything, although it's oddly comforting, in that if Trump were getting ready to fire Mueller at the end of this week or sometime next week, you would think that he would be laying the groundwork / hedging this a little bit in his public statements. Stuff like "I really don't want to fire him, but I do have concerns", etc.

Of course, he could be saying "I have no plans to fire Mueller. But I will tell other people to fire him, and will fire those people if they don't do as I say."

But we both know that at any given moment he just says what he thinks the person in front of him wants to hear.

Part of it is that I'm confused why Trump hasn't tried to fire Mueller already, given how guilty he appears to be. If the plan is "let Mueller run his course and then cast the outcome as partisan wrangling and let it die", that would explain Trump's conduct throughout all of this.

We'll see. The other wildcard here is what Mueller plans to do and when he'll be ready to do it. He could already have an indictment of Trump or a report on Trump or whatever more or less ready to fire (that he's building on / adding to over time). If he thinks he's about to be fired, he could decide to fire his missile at any point.

Of course, that depends a lot on what Mueller thinks is his endgame, and critically, does he think that he has the legal authority to indict the president or not?

[Remus West]

How interesting would it be is Mueller finds that the people around Trump (Kushner, et all) colluded but also worked together to keep that collusion from Trump himself - clearing him of criminal wrong doing but showing beyond a shadow of a doubt what a malleable puppet he truly is.

[Remus West]

Of course, that depends a lot on what Mueller thinks is his endgame, and critically, does he think that he has the legal authority to indict the president or not?

Also, if he gets fired is it his moral/ethical imperative to share incriminating information which would otherwise be buried?

[El Guapo]

Of course, that depends a lot on what Mueller thinks is his endgame, and critically, does he think that he has the legal authority to indict the president or not?

Also, if he gets fired is it his moral/ethical imperative to share incriminating information which would otherwise be buried?

Well, he's already working with state AGs (at least, with the New York AG), and his plea agreement with Flynn requires Flynn to cooperate with state authorities in addition to cooperating with the Mueller investigation. Most likely if Mueller gets fired he'll let Schneiderman take the lead, and do what he can ethically / legally do to assist him. Wonder if Schneiderman could just hire Mueller and his team directly.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

That's something I haven't thought about: if/when Mueller is fired, is the rest of his team also fired? Is the investigation completely canceled? Or does it continue with a new lead (also picked by Rosenstein if he isn't sacked?)?

[Smoove_B]

(also picked by Rosenstein if he isn't sacked?)

Now why on earth would you think that Rosenstein is in any danger?

[Carpet_pissr]

Several talking heads I heard on NPR assert that Trump's recent propaganda campaign against the Mueller investigation is not a pre-cursor to firing, but simply to discredit as much as possible, any pending bad result (for them) or news. They smear the process, claiming it's partisan, and then when anything negative to them drops, they point to their allegations of witch hunt. Problem is, if collusion is not found, what then? They have been "pre" discrediting the investigation and its process for a week, hard.

That MIGHT be problematic if investigation comes back with a clean bill for Trump (for those paying attention, or wanting to listen). But with the Trump supporters in full blinder mode, I kinda doubt it.

There's just so much uncharted territory here, and craziness that it's impossible to say how anything will go anymore.

I will say that the allegations by MANY CIA and FBI higher ups (even before Trump) that state that one of Putin's primary foreign policy goals for the past decade, has been to sow dissent and chaos in the West...well, he's done a helluva job. Congrats to him for being able to take advantage of low information and/or uber selfish voters in our country. Much like OBL after 9/11 he's probably shocked and giddy at how effectively his plan has worked.

[Smoove_B]

Several talking heads I heard on NPR assert that Trump's recent propaganda campaign against the Mueller investigation is not a pre-cursor to firing, but simply to discredit as much as possible, any pending bad result (for them) or news.

Which is amazing as the Republicans control every single aspect of the investigation. Challenge any Trumpaloo to name a single Democrat (or non-Republican) that is in charge of any element of any investigation related to Trump, Russia or the election.

[Zaxxon]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

[LordMortis]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

Swamp! Hillary!

[Holman]

I will say that the allegations by MANY CIA and FBI higher ups (even before Trump) that state that one of Putin's primary foreign policy goals for the past decade, has been to sow dissent and chaos in the West...well, he's done a helluva job. Congrats to him for being able to take advantage of low information and/or uber selfish voters in our country. Much like OBL after 9/11 he's probably shocked and giddy at how effectively his plan has worked.

And Putin's goal hasn't been to weaken the West in order to make us ripe for conquest or something; it has been to prove to his domestic audience that Western-style democracy is a sham and a failure. The point is to make clear that Putin-style autocracy is the better road to national strength and security.

To the degree that we're allowing rank partisanship to shatter our norms and liberal-democratic values, we're teaching Putin's lesson better than any autocrat could have wished.

[Holman]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

Swamp! Hillary!

The whole paranoid "Deep State" narrative transcends party lines. Trump and the Bannonites hate any independent political power that could threaten their MAGA revolution. The FBI's independence is a threat until it is purged and stacked with loyalists.

Likewise, notice how much the Deplorables have turned on McConnell, who was their hero and champion when Obama was president. Even the Republican senate is too independent for Trump's believers.

[LordMortis]

I will say that the allegations by MANY CIA and FBI higher ups (even before Trump) that state that one of Putin's primary foreign policy goals for the past decade, has been to sow dissent and chaos in the West...well, he's done a helluva job. Congrats to him for being able to take advantage of low information and/or uber selfish voters in our country. Much like OBL after 9/11 he's probably shocked and giddy at how effectively his plan has worked.

And Putin's goal hasn't been to weaken the West in order to make us ripe for conquest or something; it has been to prove to his domestic audience that Western-style democracy is a sham and a failure. The point is to make clear that Putin-style autocracy is the better road to national strength and security.

To the degree that we're allowing rank partisanship to shatter our norms and liberal-democratic values, we're teaching Putin's lesson better than any autocrat could have wished.

While I'm still not sure Trump is guilty, my assumption is that the goal is to put more people in Putin's pocket. To extend his influence. Forget extending his borders. If he's already the richest man in the world, he wants his underground to take a stronger hold in the west and siphon off it for the gain of his organization. Bankrupt the west and line the pockets of those loyal to him. Part of being a global economy is the ability to exploit globally. Of course, that's all just assumption.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

And clearly, any charges Mueller brings will be based on facts and evidence. I know the GOP is big on denying facts lately, but facts are facts no matter the leanings or desires of the person bringing them to light.

[tjg_marantz]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

He's not a Republican. If he was, he would have stopped investigating a long time ago.

[LawBeefaroni]

Problem is, if collusion is not found, what then? They have been "pre" discrediting the investigation and its process for a week, hard.

It's only a problem if you think logically and with some sense of shame. With the record of the campaign, the administration, and the man, do you really think it would be a problem for Trump and Friends to pivot on a smear campaign if the smear victim started saying nice things about them?


"That's the best they can do? A witch Hunt that finds no witches..."

"Even biased investigators can't find anything. .."

[GreenGoo]

Problem is, if collusion is not found, what then? They have been "pre" discrediting the investigation and its process for a week, hard.

It's only a problem if you think logically and with some sense of shame. With the record of the campaign, the administration, and the man, do you really think it would be a problem for Trump and Friends to pivot on a smear campaign if the smear victim started saying nice things about them?


"That's the best they can do? A witch Hunt that finds no witches..."

"Even biased investigators can't find anything. .."

For example, making noise about how the election is fixed until they won. Then the election was not fixed. Then, the election was fixed but we won anyway.

He's a monster.

[pr0ner]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

He's not a Republican. If he was, he would have stopped investigating a long time ago.

Uhh. Mueller IS a Republican. Unless you have proof that he has changed party affiliation recently, it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

[Zaxxon]

I believe TJG was joking--'you're not on the Trump Train, so you're not an R'. Clearly Mueller is an R IR(non-Trumpinian)L.

[Remus West]

They smear the process, claiming it's partisan,

I know they're doing this, and I'm sure it's working on their supporters, but this remains a solid WTF to me. Mueller's a Republican. He was appointed to head the FBI by a Republican, and extended by a Democrat. he was appointed to the special counsel role not only by a Republican, but by a Tump-appointed Republican. He's an honest-to-god war hero.

Like, it's not possible to be significantly less of a partisan problem for Rs than that.

He's not a Republican. If he was, he would have stopped investigating a long time ago.

Uhh. Mueller IS a Republican. Unless you have proof that he has changed party affiliation recently, it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I think you missed the "Bazinga" there.

[GreenGoo]

He's clearly a RINO. He might be the last republican left doing what's right, not what's expedient. I assume there are others, but they aren't leading the party down this path, and usually get punished by party leadership for trying to do their jobs.

[pr0ner]

I believe TJG was joking--'you're not on the Trump Train, so you're not an R'. Clearly Mueller is an R IR(non-Trumpinian)L.

I hope I missed a joke there but it's hard to say sometimes!

[tjg_marantz]

I believe TJG was joking--'you're not on the Trump Train, so you're not an R'. Clearly Mueller is an R IR(non-Trumpinian)L.

I hope I missed a joke there but it's hard to say sometimes!

I was hesitating and thought maybe I should put a /s but then figured it was obvious that was what I was doing. Guess not, hehe. Yes, I was being facetious.

[Sepiche]

With the caveat that this might just be a ploy to distract from 45:
Senate intel committee investigating Jill Stein campaign for possible collusion with the Russians

The Senate Intelligence Committee is looking at the presidential campaign of the Green Party’s Jill Stein for potential “collusion with the Russians,” a sign that the panel’s probe is far from over, even as allegations swirl that the House Intelligence Committee’s investigation is racing to a close.
...
Stein was present at a 2015 dinner in Moscow that was also attended by Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, whose contacts with Russian officials have been a chief focus of congressional investigators and special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s probe. Flynn and Stein were photographed at the same table as Russian President Vladi­mir Putin, who sat next to Flynn and across the table from Stein.

[Pyperkub]

With the caveat that this might just be a ploy to distract from 45:
Senate intel committee investigating Jill Stein campaign for possible collusion with the Russians

The Senate Intelligence Committee is looking at the presidential campaign of the Green Party’s Jill Stein for potential “collusion with the Russians,” a sign that the panel’s probe is far from over, even as allegations swirl that the House Intelligence Committee’s investigation is racing to a close.
...
Stein was present at a 2015 dinner in Moscow that was also attended by Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, whose contacts with Russian officials have been a chief focus of congressional investigators and special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s probe. Flynn and Stein were photographed at the same table as Russian President Vladi­mir Putin, who sat next to Flynn and across the table from Stein.

It's pretty simple, helping Stein would also hurt Clinton and help Trump.

[Pyperkub]

I will say that the allegations by MANY CIA and FBI higher ups (even before Trump) that state that one of Putin's primary foreign policy goals for the past decade, has been to sow dissent and chaos in the West...well, he's done a helluva job. Congrats to him for being able to take advantage of low information and/or uber selfish voters in our country. Much like OBL after 9/11 he's probably shocked and giddy at how effectively his plan has worked.

And Putin's goal hasn't been to weaken the West in order to make us ripe for conquest or something; it has been to prove to his domestic audience that Western-style democracy is a sham and a failure. The point is to make clear that Putin-style autocracy is the better road to national strength and security.

To the degree that we're allowing rank partisanship to shatter our norms and liberal-democratic values, we're teaching Putin's lesson better than any autocrat could have wished.

While I'm still not sure Trump is guilty, my assumption is that the goal is to put more people in Putin's pocket. To extend his influence. Forget extending his borders. If he's already the richest man in the world, he wants his underground to take a stronger hold in the west and siphon off it for the gain of his organization. Bankrupt the west and line the pockets of those loyal to him. Part of being a global economy is the ability to exploit globally. Of course, that's all just assumption.

A friend claimed Putin owned Trump. I disagreed, arguing that that Trump is far too narcissistic to be owned. I said that Trump was pwned by Putin, because he is stupid and egomaniacal enough to be manipulated like a puppet without realizing it.

[Holman]

Committee to Protect the President: House Republicans quietly investigate perceived corruption at DOJ, FBI.

A group of House Republicans has gathered secretly for weeks in the Capitol in an effort to build a case that senior leaders of the Justice Department and FBI improperly — and perhaps criminally — mishandled the contents of a dossier that describes alleged ties between President Donald Trump and Russia, according to four people familiar with their plans.

A subset of the Republican members of the House intelligence committee, led by Chairman Devin Nunes of California, has been quietly working parallel to the committee's high-profile inquiry into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election. They haven't informed Democrats about their plans, but they have consulted with the House's general counsel.

The people familiar with Nunes' plans said the goal is to highlight what some committee Republicans see as corruption and conspiracy in the upper ranks of federal law enforcement.

So much depends on 2018. Everything.