Blood Sucking Freaks Redux. Fin.

[Remus West]

As an additional wrinkle I realized that you have FTWalker posting the second vote against Genghis. Thats not accurate. I posted the second one in the same post I withdrew my Chaosraven vote. I later reitterated my Genghis vote, that did come after FTWalker had also voted Genghis.

[Genghis]

As an additional wrinkle I realized that you have FTWalker posting the second vote against Genghis. Thats not accurate. I posted the second one in the same post I withdrew my Chaosraven vote. I later reitterated my Genghis vote, that did come after FTWalker had also voted Genghis.

Hrm. your right. I saw your withdraw of ChaosRaven, but not your vote against me..

Austin - Proner(1)
Lassr - Genghis(1)
Pr-GMR - Baktosh(1)
Baktosh - Kraegor(1)
Triggercut - Tru1cy(1)
Remus West - ChaosRaven(1)
Austin - Withdraw Pr0ner(0)
Remus West - Withdraw ChaosRaven(0) Vote Genghis (2)
ChaosRaven - Kraegor(2)
Austin - Kraegor (3)
Austin - Withdraw Kraegor (2)
FTWalker - Genghis (3)
Newcastle - newcastle(1)
Baktosh - withdraw Kraegor(1) Vote Chaosraven(1)
Pr0ner - Chaosraven(2)
Genghis - Remus West(1)
Kraegor - Chaosraven(3)
tru1cy - Remus west (2)
Remus West - Revote - Genghis(2)
Austin - Genghis(4)
Chaosraven - withdraw Kraegor(1) Vote Genghis(5)
Baktosh - Withdraw ChaosRaven(1)
Baktosh - Vote Genghis (6)
Baktosh - withdraw Genghis (5)
Baktosh - Remus West (3)
Kraegor - Withdraw Chaosraven (2) - Vote Genghis 6

[Remus West]

You know, the more I think on it, the more I feel like giving Genghis a pass for a few days. The Seer can check him out so if he is Vampy we will know. If he is not Vampy, how long do the Vamps let him live since he obviously got some kind of PM? Withdraw Genghis

Obviously, Bahktosh is next highest on my list. If the game continues to stall out though I will revote Genghis to move it along.

[Remus West]

You know, the more I think on it, the more I feel like giving Genghis a pass for a few days. The Seer can check him out so if he is Vampy we will know. If he is not Vampy, how long do the Vamps let him live since he obviously got some kind of PM? Withdraw Genghis

Obviously, Bahktosh is next highest on my list. If the game continues to stall out though I will revote Genghis to move it along.

Been doing more thinking (it happens sometimes) but at 6 votes Genghis has been on the edge of death. Why hold back information that may help the village and/or save him? Why not come clean about what role he is? The only thing I can think is that he is a Vampire and does not want to claim a role that has not already voted against him as they would be quick to cast the death vote or call him out on it. withdraw Bahktosh


Vote Genghis

[Newcastle]

cant have a game hanging on like this...hmm, Genghis so, so close to the edge. I could easily push you.

Now, the main evidence Vs. Genghis is his little PM slip. Dont you think the odds are higher of him being a good guy V. him being a bad guy. If that were the truth and hiim being a bad guy, you can bet that the Vampires are going to have a meal of him sooner rather than later. It's bad odds i would think of him being a vamp, considering the number of PM's that had to go out. 6 good specials v. 2 bad specials. Odds aint looking good that he is one. Also, if you were a special would you come out and say it? I wouldn't i would keep my mouth trap, and let the secret go to the grave. Yes the info would be good for the village, however it would also be useful for the vamps.

Again just talking out loud. I dont think i will be voting for Genghis though, seems too easy.

oh also, withdraw

Newcastle

[Newcastle]

going with Remus West

[Remus West]

cant have a game hanging on like this...hmm, Genghis so, so close to the edge. I could easily push you.

Now, the main evidence Vs. Genghis is his little PM slip. Dont you think the odds are higher of him being a good guy V. him being a bad guy. If that were the truth and hiim being a bad guy, you can bet that the Vampires are going to have a meal of him sooner rather than later. It's bad odds i would think of him being a vamp, considering the number of PM's that had to go out. 6 good specials v. 2 bad specials. Odds aint looking good that he is one. Also, if you were a special would you come out and say it? I wouldn't i would keep my mouth trap, and let the secret go to the grave. Yes the info would be good for the village, however it would also be useful for the vamps.

Again just talking out loud. I dont think i will be voting for Genghis though, seems too easy.

oh also, withdraw

Newcastle

Actually if you assume the conversion took place there is a 6 good to 3 bad or even 5 good to 3 bad as a good special could have been converted. And yes, I would speak out were I a special, more, were I the hunter I would announce that I needed to shoot someone and would put that to a vote as to who to target. The bad guys feed off of misinformation and lack of information, thus a special going silent to the grave only helps them.

[Austin]

cant have a game hanging on like this...hmm, Genghis so, so close to the edge. I could easily push you.

Now, the main evidence Vs. Genghis is his little PM slip. Dont you think the odds are higher of him being a good guy V. him being a bad guy. If that were the truth and hiim being a bad guy, you can bet that the Vampires are going to have a meal of him sooner rather than later. It's bad odds i would think of him being a vamp, considering the number of PM's that had to go out. 6 good specials v. 2 bad specials. Odds aint looking good that he is one. Also, if you were a special would you come out and say it? I wouldn't i would keep my mouth trap, and let the secret go to the grave. Yes the info would be good for the village, however it would also be useful for the vamps.

Again just talking out loud. I dont think i will be voting for Genghis though, seems too easy.

oh also, withdraw

Newcastle

Actually if you assume the conversion took place there is a 6 good to 3 bad or even 5 good to 3 bad as a good special could have been converted. And yes, I would speak out were I a special, more, were I the hunter I would announce that I needed to shoot someone and would put that to a vote as to who to target. The bad guys feed off of misinformation and lack of information, thus a special going silent to the grave only helps them.

Not to be a Remus lackey here but I agree with this. If I'm a special about to be lynched you know I'm going to at least say, "Hello! I'm special and this is what I know." I probably wouldn't name names, like for instance were I a twin, I wouldn't say, "So and so is the other twin". (unless this was near the end and we needed a known innocent) If I was the protector I'd come out and say so. I'd let it be known that I could still protect myself whether I could or could not. The vamps can try and kill me to find out but may or may not waste a shot. The mage is who we really need to protect and if I'm the mage and about to be put over, I'm coming out. I'll at least give an innocent name and chances are I can have some protection and get another scan in. This post is not to suggest I am the mage fwiw. I am not, just to be crystal clear. It's meant to be a message to any special who is close to being lynched. Going to the grave silently is dumb. If nothing else it leaves us wondering who's left.

[Lassr]

Just to add...the garlic dispenser going to the grave silently can be a benefit for the village. It makes the vamps think twice before biting someone at night that has outed themselves. Seen this in several games. But the other specials, taking your info to the grave doesn't help.

[Austin]

Just to add...the garlic dispenser going to the grave silently can be a benefit for the village. It makes the vamps think twice before biting someone at night that has outed themselves. Seen this in several games. But the other specials, taking your info to the grave doesn't help.

Horrible advice. If you're the garlic dispenser and you can live longer because you came out, come out. (talking about when about to be lynched) What does it profit us to have a special that allows themselves to die, especially one who can cause some distraction from the vamps for a night or two? Were I a vampire, I'd probably play it safe and kill someone else that night and have the scanner vamp, scan the protector. Now the protector may or may not have protected himself. They always risk losing a night kill as they have no idea who he protected. Again, I'm only talking about a garlic-guy who is about to get lynched.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Just a note, guys: I'll be out of town from tomorrow afternoon until Saturday afternoon. I doubt that I'll have much/any internet access during that time (unless the hotel I'm staying at has a computer room).

[Genghis]

cant have a game hanging on like this...hmm, Genghis so, so close to the edge. I could easily push you.

Now, the main evidence Vs. Genghis is his little PM slip. Dont you think the odds are higher of him being a good guy V. him being a bad guy. If that were the truth and hiim being a bad guy, you can bet that the Vampires are going to have a meal of him sooner rather than later. It's bad odds i would think of him being a vamp, considering the number of PM's that had to go out. 6 good specials v. 2 bad specials. Odds aint looking good that he is one. Also, if you were a special would you come out and say it? I wouldn't i would keep my mouth trap, and let the secret go to the grave. Yes the info would be good for the village, however it would also be useful for the vamps.

Again just talking out loud. I dont think i will be voting for Genghis though, seems too easy.

oh also, withdraw

Newcastle

Actually if you assume the conversion took place there is a 6 good to 3 bad or even 5 good to 3 bad as a good special could have been converted. And yes, I would speak out were I a special, more, were I the hunter I would announce that I needed to shoot someone and would put that to a vote as to who to target. The bad guys feed off of misinformation and lack of information, thus a special going silent to the grave only helps them.

I find it kind of odd that Remus is advocating that specials come forth on day 1 and out themselves. From a meta stand point he has always been against that. Remus West is looking afully vampish, with Austin not too far behind.

[Bakhtosh]

With the medium on our side, we have the ability to learn people's roles after their death, so there's no pressing need for a special to out himself.

In the event that the following special is in danger of being lynched:
Seer - should out if there's real information to divulge, or if it is likely that the Garlic Guy is still alive. Should not reveal if there are only innocents scanned AND the Garlic-er is known to be dead.
Medium - Should probably not out, unless can reasonably expect to be protected overnight and has an important scan to make overnight.
Garlic Guy - Should not out unless it's late game.
Hunter - Should never out unless there is a good suspect to shoot.
Twin - Outing is risky if there are no other special targets. Might be better to go out quietly and see how others respond. Also, in this game, the twins don't have a lot of power or a penalty for dying, so it might be better to let one die, rather than let the lynch vote swing to another special who may have to out himself to stay alive.
Twin - If 1 twin is dead, there's no real reason to stay covert for long.

Remus, I have no reason to trust you, but I've seen something in public that makes me trust tru1cy for now. There should be no reason for tru1cy to trust me. I have no private knowledge about anyone's innocence but my own. I would suggest that tru1cy or I be scanned tonight, but I'm reasonably sure that tru1cy is not a vamp, and I know that I'm not. So I'd much rather the seer scan someone else. He'd be more likely to find a vampire that way. If one of us is going to be scanned, I'd suggest myself since that would prove that I'm not a vamp following a vamp (which would be pretty dumb...outing 2).

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Genghis - 6
Remus West - 4
Chaosraven - 2
tru1cy - 1
Bakhtosh - 1

[Kraegor]

amusing tangle.

Genghis and Newcastle sitting in a tree accu s.s. i.n.g.
Remus and Austin sittin in a tree....

so..... tag team cage match?

[Lassr]

Just to add...the garlic dispenser going to the grave silently can be a benefit for the village. It makes the vamps think twice before biting someone at night that has outed themselves. Seen this in several games. But the other specials, taking your info to the grave doesn't help.

Horrible advice. If you're the garlic dispenser and you can live longer because you came out, come out. (talking about when about to be lynched) What does it profit us to have a special that allows themselves to die, especially one who can cause some distraction from the vamps for a night or two? Were I a vampire, I'd probably play it safe and kill someone else that night and have the scanner vamp, scan the protector. Now the protector may or may not have protected himself. They always risk losing a night kill as they have no idea who he protected. Again, I'm only talking about a garlic-guy who is about to get lynched.

I forgot the vampires also have a medium so they can detect the roles of the dead. But what I was saying is if the vampires know the garlic dispenser is dead then any other special coming out will have no protection. If no one knows he's dead then there is a little protection thinking he's alive, BUT with mediums on both sides this doesn't matter as much right now since we know the vampire medium is still alive.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I forgot the vampires also have a medium so they can detect the roles of the dead. But what I was saying is if the vampires know the garlic dispenser is dead then any other special coming out will have no protection. If no one knows he's dead then there is a little protection thinking he's alive, BUT with mediums on both sides this doesn't matter as much right now since we know the vampire medium is still alive.

Just a clarification - the vampires don't have a medium, they have a seer. The difference is that a seer can only discover the roles of players still alive while the medium can only discover roles of dead players.

[Lassr]

AND the vampires being able to PM each other will know the roles. The village will still be in the dark until the medium outs himself. Allowing the vampires to sew deception if they also know the medium is dead. So if you are about to be lynched and you are special then it probably would be beneficial to step forward. I don't like it but with mediums on both sides... advantage vampires.

[Lassr]

I forgot the vampires also have a medium so they can detect the roles of the dead. But what I was saying is if the vampires know the garlic dispenser is dead then any other special coming out will have no protection. If no one knows he's dead then there is a little protection thinking he's alive, BUT with mediums on both sides this doesn't matter as much right now since we know the vampire medium is still alive.

Just a clarification - the vampires don't have a medium, they have a seer. The difference is that a seer can only discover the roles of players still alive while the medium can only discover roles of dead players.

SHIT. OK, that changes a lot.
I'm avoiding going to unnecessary pages because it takes a minute to load each page for me today. Looks like I should have went to page 1 before opening my mouth. SO the garlic dispenser going to the grave silent can benefit the village. If a special outs himself and the garlic man is dead and no one knows then then vampires have to decide if they want to risk attempting to kill the outed special then or next turn.

[Lassr]

geez it took 5 minutes to post that reply and then another 12 before I could view it. I got the sql errors and had to try and reload OO.

[PR_GMR]

geez it took 5 minutes to post that reply and then another 12 before I could view it. I got the sql errors and had to try and reload OO.

[ooc]

It's been pretty damn slow for me also in the past two weeks. *Ahem* Rip? Time to do some tweaking. [/ooc]

[Remus West]

I find it kind of odd that Remus is advocating that specials come forth on day 1 and out themselves. From a meta stand point he has always been against that. Remus West is looking afully vampish, with Austin not too far behind.

Funny, I thought I was advocating a special not allow the village to lynch him. You were and are at 6 votes. At any moment someone could come along and place the final vote on you. Why allow that situation to remain and allow the Vampires to essentially kill you during the day rather than forcing them to do it at night? Specials should always make the Vampires kill them at night rather than go quietly.

[Remus West]

As for the Garlic dispenser, yes the Vamps thinking him alive when he is dead can benefit the Village, but the prospect of having him alive doing the "Am I protecting myself tonight" dance also benefits us. It would allow the Seer ideas about who to vision (for instance, say Genghis comes forth as Mr Garlic, then Lassr, Austin, and myself become very obvious scan targets) and at the same time force the Vamps to guess about when to go after him.

[Austin]

A) Good point Lassr and I retract my saying that staying hidden is a horrible idea. My thinking was the dispenser can toy with the vamps a bit before dieing, but your idea keeps them dancing too, possibly later on. Still coming out means an alive innocent and causes the vamps to use a night kill to take him out. No point in us doing their work for them.

B) Kraegor, perhaps you missed my humor in tying in with Remus. I think I've made two comments. The first was a joke about Tosh's following of Tru1cy and Remus' response to it. The second was just agreeing with what Remus was saying. Do not take either comment as any sort of protection or affirmation of Remus. It only happens that I agree(d) with him on a couple points, and I made a joke also.

[Remus West]

In the event that the following special is in danger of being lynched:
Seer - should out if there's real information to divulge, or if it is likely that the Garlic Guy is still alive. Should not reveal if there are only innocents scanned AND the Garlic-er is known to be dead.

Garlic guy is obviously still alive.

Medium - Should probably not out, unless can reasonably expect to be protected overnight and has an important scan to make overnight.

Why wouldn't he? His power is not that useful, his identity is.

Garlic Guy - Should not out unless it's late game.

covered that above, I think it more valuable for the village to know and be able react accordingly. Make the Vampires kill you not the village.

Hunter - Should never out unless there is a good suspect to shoot.

This could not be more wrong. The Hunter's biggest ability is to prove to the entire village that he is a good guy. He can not be faked as a Vampire can not then demonstrate the day kill. There are no circumstances under which the Hunter should go quietly.

Twin - Outing is risky if there are no other special targets. Might be better to go out quietly and see how others respond. Also, in this game, the twins don't have a lot of power or a penalty for dying, so it might be better to let one die, rather than let the lynch vote swing to another special who may have to out himself to stay alive.
Twin - If 1 twin is dead, there's no real reason to stay covert for long.

The odds of targeting two specials are relatively low. I think the main thing the Twins can do right now is help keep each other from being killed. Keep in mind though that one of the twins could have been converted without the other's knowledge. Odds are low of that but it is still possible.

Remus, I have no reason to trust you, but I've seen something in public that makes me trust tru1cy for now. There should be no reason for tru1cy to trust me. I have no private knowledge about anyone's innocence but my own. I would suggest that tru1cy or I be scanned tonight, but I'm reasonably sure that tru1cy is not a vamp, and I know that I'm not. So I'd much rather the seer scan someone else. He'd be more likely to find a vampire that way. If one of us is going to be scanned, I'd suggest myself since that would prove that I'm not a vamp following a vamp (which would be pretty dumb...outing 2).

Still curious about what makes you trust tru1cy. I have gone back over his posts and do not see it. I do not see much suspicious either, but I see nothing to make me trust him and since he is voting me and I am not a Vampire I have no reason to believe in him. I will go back and look again.

[tru1cy]

Hmm, still in the first night vote. My vote hasn't changed

[Austin]

Hmm, still in the first night vote. My vote hasn't changed

[Genghis]

Actually if you assume the conversion took place there is a 6 good to 3 bad or even 5 good to 3 bad as a good special could have been converted. And yes, I would speak out were I a special, more, were I the hunter I would announce that I needed to shoot someone and would put that to a vote as to who to target. The bad guys feed off of misinformation and lack of information, thus a special going silent to the grave only helps them.

As I understand things when the PMs were sent only the 2 vamps and 6 specials were sent PMs. Then Ralph-Wiggum posted the message that all the PMs were sent out and stated it was night.
Fourty minutes later I posted that he should send PMs to everyone not just those who recieved them.

Assuming that i have to be a special according to Remus, I could only be one of the 2 vamps or 1 of the 6 good specials. The third vamp would have been unlikely to have been converted in 40 minutes as it would have required both the garlic protector and the converter vamp to have sent in their targets.

Thats why your post above confuses me. At that time their couldn't have been 3 vamps. It seems like you are trying to fabricate an excuse to lynch me and hope no one would notice. The conversion vamp would not come into play in the 2vamp/6 good specials recieving a PM.

Their would actually be a pretty low chance that they would target me for conversion since their were already acusations running around that I was a vamp( here and here)

[Genghis]

As an additional wrinkle I realized that you have FTWalker posting the second vote against Genghis. Thats not accurate. I posted the second one in the same post I withdrew my Chaosraven vote. I later reitterated my Genghis vote, that did come after FTWalker had also voted Genghis.

Which is intresting since it was the two of you that also blew the entire PM out of proportion. That combined with your begging for the specials to out themselves on day 1 is extreamly suspicious.

[Bakhtosh]

Remember that since everyone but me started out at 0% trust, even a little 25% is more than anyone else has.

I'll give tru1cy a chance to reveal why he thinks I'm trusting him tomorrow, and then I will reveal my thinking.

Note that IF Genghis is a vamp, I'll never vote for anyone other than tru1cy until he dies because he will immediately go to -100%.

[Genghis]

All I can say is I am not a Vamp. Killing me would prove that, but its not something I would suggest.

[Lassr]

withdraw Genghis for now.

[Remus West]

As an additional wrinkle I realized that you have FTWalker posting the second vote against Genghis. Thats not accurate. I posted the second one in the same post I withdrew my Chaosraven vote. I later reitterated my Genghis vote, that did come after FTWalker had also voted Genghis.

Which is intresting since it was the two of you that also blew the entire PM out of proportion. That combined with your begging for the specials to out themselves on day 1 is extreamly suspicious.

Lets be very clear here. I am NOT asking for specials to come out on day 1. I am saying that a special going to the stake without talking is stupid.

[Austin]

Chaosraven has been really, really quiet.

[Bakhtosh]

Here's what I don't like about specials coming out during the lynch:

It gives the vamps information the don't necessarily have already. If the garlic spreader comes out, he'll die eventually, and the vamps will know that they have no fear at night.

If the hunter reveals himself to save from lynching, he must use his ability to prove himself. Then the vamps have no fear of losing their exploding offspring.

If the seer reveals and is only able to say, "I scanned personA and personB. They're both innocent." Then what good does it serve the village? Now the vamps know they don't have to hunt for the seer: they can commence disecting other "knowns".

In this game, the lack of PMs means that a circle of trust can't really be formed. What good does it do to have the twins come out? They have no powers...they can't act as an information hub...everything has to be done in public.

Only the ability of the garlic dispenser changes that. And here's the down side to that:

Let's say Genghis is the medium. He's close to lynching, so he outs. The votes now shift to Lassr, but he's the hunter, and as he gets close he outs. Now the vote shifts to Triggercut, only he's a twin, so he outs and his twin outs to confirm his story. Finally the vote shifts to pr0ner, who is a vamp, but claims to be the garlic spreader, forcing the real GS to out himself so we can get a good kill without revealing yet another special.

Who does the garlic spreader protect? The vamps have a good chance of actually hitting a special that night, and they'll know who's dead...more information than they'll get otherwise.

[Genghis]

I am sitting at 5 votes. I am guessing at least 2 of those are vamp votes. At least 1 vote is not.

Its a given that if I am not lynched today 2 things will happen. The good seer will likely scan me, and the vamps will likely scan me. Its unlikely the vamps will kill me hoping that the villiage will do the job for them.

If I out myself(whether as a normal villager or as a special) then 2 things happen. If I out myself as a normal villager then the village likely kills me and the vamps have one less innocent to scan/kill. If I live it takes away one of their scans. They can't take the risk that I am the seer and let me live or at least scan me. It ties up one of their actions. If The village lynches me they get a free kill and get to kill and scan someone new.

[Remus West]

Here's what I don't like about specials coming out during the lynch:

It gives the vamps information the don't necessarily have already. If the garlic spreader comes out, he'll die eventually, and the vamps will know that they have no fear at night.

If the hunter reveals himself to save from lynching, he must use his ability to prove himself. Then the vamps have no fear of losing their exploding offspring.

If the seer reveals and is only able to say, "I scanned personA and personB. They're both innocent." Then what good does it serve the village? Now the vamps know they don't have to hunt for the seer: they can commence disecting other "knowns".

In this game, the lack of PMs means that a circle of trust can't really be formed. What good does it do to have the twins come out? They have no powers...they can't act as an information hub...everything has to be done in public.

Only the ability of the garlic dispenser changes that. And here's the down side to that:

Let's say Genghis is the medium. He's close to lynching, so he outs. The votes now shift to Lassr, but he's the hunter, and as he gets close he outs. Now the vote shifts to Triggercut, only he's a twin, so he outs and his twin outs to confirm his story. Finally the vote shifts to pr0ner, who is a vamp, but claims to be the garlic spreader, forcing the real GS to out himself so we can get a good kill without revealing yet another special.

Who does the garlic spreader protect? The vamps have a good chance of actually hitting a special that night, and they'll know who's dead...more information than they'll get otherwise.

Having the Hunter go down silently just so that the Vampires think they might not get to have the beserker go off is asinine. The Hunter is the single player that can make certain the entire village knows he is on our side. The beserker goes off regardless of the Hunter being alive or dead unless he gets shot before the vote finishes. If we lynch the beserker blindly then he goes off. Hunter alive or dead has nothing to do with it. The only way he is going to stop the beserker is if the Seer scans the beserker and announces it, then the hunter can shoot him. Either that or get lucky. If the Hunter goes down silently and the Seer comes out expecting to get the beserker shot, what then?

[Austin]

Nope, I can't shake my Genghis feeling. Sorry. All vampires wind up with, "You're making a big mistake" defense. If we don't plough forward we never find anything out. I don't know if Genghis is innocent, special, or vampire but we at the very least have info on who voted or didn't vote for him when he is revealed. He's one of my suspects and has a chance of being lynched so I'll move back to him. Genghis

[Bakhtosh]

Seer - Can look into the role of one player a night. If he discovers a vampire, will be told the exact role of that vampire.

Ahh, didn't realize this - thought seer was just told Vampire or Village, which would mean that you shoot the first vamp scan, no matter what.

In that case, you are right, to protect the seer, the hunter would need to self-out if the berzerker vamp has not assploded yet.

[Chaosraven]

I am sitting at 5 votes. I am guessing at least 2 of those are vamp votes. At least 1 vote is not.

5 - 1 = 4?

Perhaps you meant at least 2.