KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — The Interior Ministry on Wednesday said seven people were killed in clashes between Afghan security forces and protesters demonstrating against the burning of Muslim holy books at a NATO military base.
The anger over the Quran burning has sparked two days of protests across Afghanistan and tapped into anti-foreign sentiment fueled by a popular perception that foreign troops disrespect Afghan culture and Islam. The demonstrations prompted the U.S. to lock down its embassy and bar its staff from traveling.
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The demonstration in Kabul drew thousands of protesters, who chanted "Death to America," hurled rocks and set tires alight outside a complex that is home to foreign contractors, police and some coalition military forces. Nearby, angry demonstrators set a fuel truck ablaze on a main highway running east out of the city, sending black smoke billowing into the air.
The U.S. apologized Tuesday for burning the copies of the Quran, which had been pulled from the shelves of the Parwan Detention Facility, adjoining Bagram Air Field, because they contained extremist messages or inscriptions.
U.S. Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said after the books had been mistakenly given to troops to be burned at a garbage pit without realizing it.
"It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials," Allen said Tuesday, one day after Afghan workers at the garbage pit found the books. "It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it we immediately stopped and we intervened."
A Western military official with knowledge of the incident said it appeared that the copies of the Quran and other Islamic readings in the library were being used to fuel extremism, and that detainees were writing on the documents to exchange extremist messages. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.
Which raises the idle question of how one respectfully destroys a defaced Koran.
The United States faces an enormous challenge in withdrawing its troops over the next two years while attempting to protect hard-won gains and facilitate a delicate peace process between the Afghan government and Taliban insurgents. With so little margin for error, yesterday’s incident could threaten the relationship on which US military and diplomatic strategies depend.
US and Afghan officials expressed concerns about the prospect of unrest in coming days.
The US Embassy in Kabul warned American citizens, “Past demonstrations in Afghanistan have escalated into violent attacks on Western targets of opportunity.’’
The incident also could complicate relations between NATO forces and the Afghans who perform a variety of nonmilitary functions on bases. The hundreds of Bagram employees who were among the protesters will now have to decide whether to leave their jobs or continue working while disguising their antipathy.
“The people who do this are our enemies,’’ said a 27-year-old who has worked at a warehouse on the base for two years. “How could I ever work for them again?’’
Another Bagram employee who joined the protest said, “Whoever goes back to work will be killed. They’ll think of us as traitors.’’
Good grief. After 10+ years our position there is still so precarious that a careless mistake could undo it?
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — President Barack Obama apologized Thursday for the burning of copies of the Muslim holy book at a U.S. military base this week, as violent protests raging nationwide led a man dressed in an Afghan army uniform to kill two U.S. troops.
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U.S. apologies for the desecration — and an appeal from Karzai for calm — have failed to temper the anger of Afghans, who staged rallies in seven provinces Thursday, sparking clashes with Afghan police and security forces that left at least five demonstrators dead. Seven protesters were killed in clashes on Wednesday.
The two NATO service members were killed in eastern Afghanistan by a man dressed in an Afghan army uniform. Both troops were Americans, according to a U.S. official, who confirmed their nationalities on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to disclose the information.
Kraken wrote:
Which raises the idle question of how one respectfully destroys a defaced Koran.
Put them in a box and mail them somewhere very far away?
Good grief. What idiot would authorize a Koran burning without knowing what message it would send?
There's an interesting article at cnn, about that particular thing. A Muslim leader, saying the whole thing is dumb and being used as a political tool. That Muslims burn, bury, and shred Korans all the time in appropriate rites of retirement. He stated its the word that is sacred not the paper. Of course, that article is now buried deep in the archives, vs. Obama apologizes.
We're the ones that should be mad, mad at the colossal waste of money this foreign adventure has been. We might as well have just burned the money instead of the Qurans.
em2nought wrote:We're the ones that should be mad, mad at the colossal waste of money this foreign adventure has been. We might as well have just burned the money instead of the Qurans.
Sure does make you wonder what we expect to accomplish. Bin Laden's dead and al Qaeda's broken there, so what's the mission again? But we have another thread for that.
The commander of NATO and US forces says that all NATO personnel are being recalled from Afghan ministries following an attack at the Interior Ministry in Kabul where two Americans were killed.
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A gunman killed two American advisers inside a heavily guarded government compound in Kabul today, officials said, as protests against the burning of copies of the Muslim holy book roiled the country for a fifth day.
You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Grifman wrote:You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
Nobody likes a foreign occupier, whatever thugs they may have cleared out of your territory. Forgiving an occupying army for burning your holy book doesn't come all that naturally. And it's probably especially difficult when they sent up some drones and blew up your cousin's wedding last month or last year, too.
I keep thinking back to how we beat the Soviets with an insanely costly arms race that they couldn't match. Maybe Osama accomplished the same thing for the price of a dozen airline tickets?
If they don't want us there then get the F out. Take our supplies, our people and our money and leave. I'm sorry but personally I am so damn sick of uneducated, medieval goat herders somehow dictating world policy while Americans and other "great satan" westerners pay for their ignorance with our blood. The US is going broke supporting an entire region of people who would kill us and burn everything we believe in.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."
Grifman wrote:You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
+100
Too bad we're dependent on the MidEast for oil. I'd love to leave them all alone to themselves.
Grifman wrote:You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
Nobody likes a foreign occupier, whatever thugs they may have cleared out of your territory. Forgiving an occupying army for burning your holy book doesn't come all that naturally.
We're not an occupier, any more than we "occupied" France during WW2. We're supposed to be allies. All I remember is being told that we "abandoned" the Afghans after they chased the Soviets out, that this time the West needed to stay and help them rebuild. If they see us as occupiers, then seems like we were right the first time, leave them to themselves because no one can help this screwed up country/culture.
And it's probably especially difficult when they sent up some drones and blew up your cousin's wedding last month or last year, too.
And how many of these protesters had this happen to them? That's just an excuse.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Grifman wrote:You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
+100
Too bad we're dependent on the MidEast for oil. I'd love to leave them all alone to themselves.
Afghanistan has nothing of value apart from vast untouched mineral wealth that we'll never get a piece of. It's just a hive of scum and villainy, and we could occupy it for 100 years without changing that. We got the villains we came for, so....
I do wonder why every great power eventually gets bogged down there, though.
Grifman wrote:You'd think all the deaths of our troops, the billions we've spent trying to rebuild that country, etc, would buy us a little bit of goodwill and forgiveness over something like this. If this is how the Afghans feel, then let's get out and just leave them to the Taliban. We did what we could, we tried, but enough is enough. Let the country just collapse into whatever medieval Islamic craphole they want to fall into. We can deal with Al Quaida at range if need be.
Nobody likes a foreign occupier, whatever thugs they may have cleared out of your territory. Forgiving an occupying army for burning your holy book doesn't come all that naturally.
We're not an occupier, any more than we "occupied" France during WW2. We're supposed to be allies. All I remember is being told that we "abandoned" the Afghans after they chased the Soviets out, that this time the West needed to stay and help them rebuild. If they see us as occupiers, then seems like we were right the first time, leave them to themselves because no one can help this screwed up country/culture.
And it's probably especially difficult when they sent up some drones and blew up your cousin's wedding last month or last year, too.
And how many of these protesters had this happen to them? That's just an excuse.
Apparently we're the kind of allies who burn your Bible and bomb your wedding and pretty much act like occupiers.
I agree it's screwed up over there, and that's why we need to reduce our military footprint. We still have soft power when we remember how to use it.
GreenGoo wrote:The "I told you so" crowd must be out in full force.
Billions of dollars of good will wiped out by lighting a couple of books on fire. How completely fucked up is that?
Well, it's more than the book burning. We've been having a hard time with hearts-and-minds all along. It works in some places and not in others, and the country itself is divided over us.
This isn't France in 1944. Or, rather, it's France in 1944 but we're not the Americans; we're more like Martians. We've done a lot of good, but we don't have much wiggle room unless we want to really look like alien invaders.
Hopefully the point of still being there, is learning from the past mistakes of leaving too soon, thus creating the perfect environment for the problems that it created FOR US later on. I am torn between getting the F out ASAP, vs. repeating a terrible mistake. If we leave too soon before they can establish some decent momentum towards a more modernized, stable government, then the same thing will happen over again...hotbed/haven for types that want to blow us up.
Not that those types can't go to other countries, but they seem to reaaaally like Afghanistan. Terrain + lack of any type of established government = perfect hideout country for all kinds of nasty enemies.
Holman wrote:Apparently we're the kind of allies who burn your Bible and bomb your wedding and pretty much act like occupiers.
The US bombing campaign in France during WW2 to killed over 67,000, a whole lot more than the number of Afghans killed by US forces. This is a lot more than bombing a few weddings, yet the French greeted us with open arms.
You continue to assert that we are occupiers and act like occupiers. Please provide, first off, a definition of an occupier, then provide evidence that the US effort in Afghanistan meets that definition.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
GreenGoo wrote:The "I told you so" crowd must be out in full force.
Billions of dollars of good will wiped out by lighting a couple of books on fire. How completely fucked up is that?
Well, it's more than the book burning.
Not really. Books burn, riots ensue, people die.
Unless you're telling me riots/protests were already happening and that people were specifically targeting US citizens the week before the book burning, then it really is as simple as book burning not only removed any good will but dropped the US squarely into public enemy number 1.
I get that the US was not seen in a positive light prior to this incident, but that doesn't change the fact that the murder spree started after a book or two was burned due to an oversight.
GreenGoo wrote:The "I told you so" crowd must be out in full force.
Billions of dollars of good will wiped out by lighting a couple of books on fire. How completely fucked up is that?
Well, it's more than the book burning.
Not really. Books burn, riots ensue, people die.
Unless you're telling me riots/protests were already happening and that people were specifically targeting US citizens the week before the book burning, then it really is as simple as book burning not only removed any good will but dropped the US squarely into public enemy number 1.
I get that the US was not seen in a positive light prior to this incident, but that doesn't change the fact that the murder spree started after a book or two was burned due to an oversight.
The book burning is just an excuse. Nobody would be rioting if they had felt happy and comfortable with our presence before it happened. No one would have turned 180 degrees over this.
This is their way of saying, "Thanks, war over, go home."
Kraken wrote:
Afghanistan has nothing of value apart from vast untouched mineral wealth that we'll never get a piece of. It's just a hive of scum and villainy, and we could occupy it for 100 years without changing that. We got the villains we came for, so....
I do wonder why every great power eventually gets bogged down there, though.
They have some of the world's richest sources of rare earth metals. We cleared the way for China and private companies to benefit.
We even used USGS resources to map it for them. If we could have found a way to let the wealth proliferate throughout the country we could have been the liberating heroes we wanted to be.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Holman wrote:Apparently we're the kind of allies who burn your Bible and bomb your wedding and pretty much act like occupiers.
The US bombing campaign in France during WW2 to killed over 67,000, a whole lot more than the number of Afghans killed by US forces. This is a lot more than bombing a few weddings, yet the French greeted us with open arms.
You continue to assert that we are occupiers and act like occupiers. Please provide, first off, a definition of an occupier, then provide evidence that the US effort in Afghanistan meets that definition.
They don't want us there. That makes us, by definition, "occupiers."
"Bombing weddings" is shorthand for a whole host of ways in which we have failed to cover our asses and behave like a force that was there for Afghanistan instead of purely for U.S. aims. Every friendly fire incident or nighttime round-up undoes 10 positive, productive, meaningful actions. It's great when the USMC helps build a school for the local kids, but that's all wrecked the next time we drone-strike the wrong house.
Do I think we are there to conquer the country? Of course not. Do I think we're the bad guys? Not at all. Do I think the Afghanistan people are insane fanatics for not approving of everything we've done? Also no.
What's happening is that we're learning that our geopolitical aims are no longer welcome. They don't fit the local narrative, which makes it very difficult for us to continue to position ourselves as liberators. In France 1944 we did not have this problem.
Kraken wrote:
Afghanistan has nothing of value apart from vast untouched mineral wealth that we'll never get a piece of. It's just a hive of scum and villainy, and we could occupy it for 100 years without changing that. We got the villains we came for, so....
I do wonder why every great power eventually gets bogged down there, though.
They have some of the world's richest sources of rare earth metals. We cleared the way for China and private companies to benefit.
We even used USGS resources to map it for them. If we could have found a way to let the wealth proliferate throughout the country we could have been the liberating heroes we wanted to be.
Let the Chinese try to get the resources out. We'll see how that works out for them in a country that lacks even rudimentary infrastructure and social institutions.
GreenGoo wrote:The "I told you so" crowd must be out in full force.
Billions of dollars of good will wiped out by lighting a couple of books on fire. How completely fucked up is that?
Well, it's more than the book burning.
Not really. Books burn, riots ensue, people die.
Unless you're telling me riots/protests were already happening and that people were specifically targeting US citizens the week before the book burning, then it really is as simple as book burning not only removed any good will but dropped the US squarely into public enemy number 1.
I get that the US was not seen in a positive light prior to this incident, but that doesn't change the fact that the murder spree started after a book or two was burned due to an oversight.
The book burning is just an excuse. Nobody would be rioting if they had felt happy and comfortable with our presence before it happened. No one would have turned 180 degrees over this.
This is their way of saying, "Thanks, war over, go home."
Or that their religious zealotry is sincere. Look at the situation with the Danish or Norwegian cartoon depiction of Mohammad. Those riots and death threats and attempts to kill the author were not an excuse to just kill or attempt to kill cartoonists or editors.
Kraken wrote:
Bigger question: Considering the outcry over the "ground zero mosque", are extremists successfully pushing the general public further toward a generalized cultural/religious war?
Some evidence in the no column:
The flow of students from the Muslim world into American colleges and universities has grown sharply in recent years, and women, though still far outnumbered by men, account for a rising share.
No definitive figures are available, but interviews with students and administrators at several Catholic institutions indicate an even faster rate of growth there, with the Muslim student population generally doubling over the past decade, and the number of Muslim women tripling or more.
At those schools, Muslim students, from the United States or abroad, say they prefer a place where talk of religious beliefs and adherence to a religious code are accepted and even encouraged, socially and academically. Correctly or not, many of them say they believe that they are more accepted than they would be at secular schools.
Many Catholic colleges are very ecumenical and diverse. I'm now adjuncting at a Jesuit university that seems to be pretty welcoming of LGBT students, and I believe there's a Muslim student group on campus. (If I applied to teach at an Evangelically affiliated school I might be expected to sign a very specific statement of doctrinal beliefs, but at my current job I haven't had to declare my religion at all.)
Police at the University of Texas at Dallas say they're searching for the person who dumped several copies of the Quran in campus toilets.
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A student recently discovered the books inside a bathroom at the university's Student Union building. After snapping some pictures to document the apparent anti-Muslim act, he immediately reported it to campus security, which got police involved.
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UT Dallas Police say they are reviewing surveillance video from inside the Student Union building.
They acknowledge they haven't found "anything out of the ordinary" for now, but say they're taking this matter seriously and will continue to investigate.
It's probably as good a way as any to get expelled.
Holman wrote:Many Catholic colleges are very ecumenical and diverse. I'm now adjuncting at a Jesuit university that seems to be pretty welcoming of LGBT students, and I believe there's a Muslim student group on campus.
A good friend started the first GLBT organization at Loyola University Chicago, a first for any Catholic university. It helped that he was a personable and persuasive fiscal conservative pursuing a Masters of Theology after being diagnosed with AIDs. At the time in the early 1990s, it was quite controversial.
The Muslim, Jewish and other interfaith programs were much better supported. But it helps that the Jesuits who ran Loyola pledge to the Truth, then to the Pope.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Police at the University of Texas at Dallas say they're searching for the person who dumped several copies of the Quran in campus toilets.
...
A student recently discovered the books inside a bathroom at the university's Student Union building. After snapping some pictures to document the apparent anti-Muslim act, he immediately reported it to campus security, which got police involved.
...
UT Dallas Police say they are reviewing surveillance video from inside the Student Union building.
They acknowledge they haven't found "anything out of the ordinary" for now, but say they're taking this matter seriously and will continue to investigate.
It's probably as good a way as any to get expelled.
Wahoo, my university is finally getting some national recognition! Wait, it's for Qurans found in a toilet?
Max Peck wrote:This thread baited me with a Rachel Bloom reference, and utterly failed to deliver.
0/5 . Would not click again.
The connection made sense to me 7 years ago. I don't remember why. Something about desecrating books.
Thanks for that excuse to watch the video again, though.
There are those that say books burn at a temperature 451°F. That is fairly hot, as is Rachel Bloom. The connection makes sense, and would have worked if it hadn't been for those meddling kids (as well as the lack of follow-up in the Rachel Bloom department).
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Iraqi security forces dispersed hundreds of demonstrators who stormed the main gates of the Swedish embassy in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, in response to police in Stockholm sanctioning another planned burning of the Muslim holy book, the Quran.
Videos posted on social media showed a large number of protesters inside the Swedish embassy’s perimeter as well as black smoke and fire coming from the building.
Security forces armed with electric batons chased protestors and used water cannons to disperse them and put out the fire, a security source told CNN.
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Several journalists covering the protests were detained by security forces, and at least one was beaten, according to multiple organizations.
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The planned protest in Sweden took place later on Thursday outside the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm. It was organized by Salwan Momika, an Iraqi national in Sweden who burned a copy of the Quran outside a mosque in Stockholm last month during the Muslim holiday of Eid-al-Adha, in a solo that sparked outrage in Iraq and around the world.
Ultimately no Qurans were burned during Thursday’s protest, according to videos seen by CNN, but footage showed two protesters kicking and partially destroying a Quran, and Momika stepping on a Quran and polishing his shoes with a picture of the Iraqi flag.
A Stockholm police spokesperson said there were two people in attendance with a permit for the protest and estimated that another 150 people were present, most of them reporters.
I tell my daughter, "If you get disproportionatly upset every time your little brother annoys you, he'll keep doing it because he knows it will get a raaction.'
Not that there's any logic or reason when religious fundamentalism, or little brothers, are in play.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
