Octopus Overlords

*POTA spoiler warning*

We ended our Princes of the Apocalypse campaign tonight with my second group. We made it as far as the end of the first temple. They wandered into the pyramid unprepared. They took down Aerisi, but her pet Invisible Stalker ate them whole. They put in an invisible monster with non-magic damage resistance into a campaign where there were almost no magic weapons and attacks made by guessing its location and with disadvantage, then made them fight it in the room with a boss casting Chain Lightning at them. They weren't fully rested, but that fight would have been deadly regardless.

For the 'recommended' level (level 6) with a party of four, a deadly encounter would be ~5,600XP worth of baddies. That encounter clocked in at around 13,000.

We ended up with one person dead, two down and unconscious, and one bleeding out. Luckily, we'd already decided to retire the campaign after tonight, or I'd be figuring out which cell the three would be waking up in.

There are some very cool moments in Princes, but it was an absolute pain in the ass to run. For those not familiar with it, there are four dungeons, each with two levels, then a level all four share, then a fourth level. Each complex effectively has four levels. The problem is, each deeper level is much, much tougher than the level before. For example, one place had a surface that was balanced for level 4 (without enough XP to get to 5), then a tunnel that went right to the level 7 area, then a path to the level ~11 area, then the level 15 area, all in succession. The anticipated course runs this way:

Location A, level 1
Location B, level 1
Location C, level 1
Location D, level 1

Location A, level 2
Location B, level 2
Location C, level 2
Location D, level 2

Shared level 3

Location A, B, C, or D, level 4

The problem is, this requires the players to enter each dungeon, get to one particular door, decide not to go through that door before going to all three other dungeons and clearing them (all in different geographical locations), before returning and doing level 2 of all four in the same order and so on. Why would they ever do that? What party leaves multiple doors unopened just for the hell of it?

If they don't, though, they end up in an area five levels above them (and there is no resting for full recovery in there.)

The clues to lead them to these locations are vague and are only presented if they happen to wander into the correct spot, which they're given no motivation to do. My party cleared out level 1 of A, B, and C, then part of level 2 of A, all of level 2 of B, but never even found that D existed.

It was fun, but it was a headache. I'm glad it is over, and am unlikely to run it again.

We're going to spend some time experimenting with some different systems and genres next. We'll be doing one-offs and short mini-campaigns (2-3 sessions), rotating GMs until someone decides they want to run something grander. I'm really looking forward to it, both getting to play and trying a different setting and system (I've been running D&D nonstop for about a year and a half now.) We're starting off with some sci-fi Fate next month.

I wonder if they assumed that the group would run some of the side adventures from the Adventure League to get some extra XP and items. Given how not everyone had access to the AL that would have been silly but some of the Adventure League adventures made assumptions that they would be run between delves into the main complex.

Looking forward to how Fate goes for you. My group aren't willing to play anything other than AD&D 2nd Edition and Shadowrun so I am currently trying to find local people willing to move into this century with game engines

We play over roll20.net in combination with google hangouts (video conference).

It works quite well, you might find some modern gamers that way

BH, based on everything you said here I'm really glad I bailed on PotA. I haven't been keeping track, but how have the reviews of Curse of Strahd been? They do any better in making that a more cohesive campaign?

hentzau wrote:BH, based on everything you said here I'm really glad I bailed on PotA. I haven't been keeping track, but how have the reviews of Curse of Strahd been? They do any better in making that a more cohesive campaign?

Honestly? I haven't even read the reviews or impressions of it. I've gotten pretty burned out on both D&D and fantasy over the last couple of months, and haven't really been keeping track. Running two campaigns for a year and a half will do that to you. I'm looking forward to the change of pace.

Sometimes you have to go back to the dystopian future and take revenge on your players. How about some Paranoia?

Zarathud wrote:Sometimes you have to go back to the dystopian future and take revenge on your players. How about some Paranoia?

Which version would you use these days? I have a copy I picked up in '92 or '93, but I haven't looked through it in decades.

For the past 2 years, I've been running the Kickstarter beta which uses d6s and cards. But it's Paranoia -- the rules are above everyone's security clearance anyway. They'll never know the difference. Or at least they'll lose a clone if they do. I'll send you a PM.

Second edition. It looks like I have the second edition:

hentzau wrote:BH, based on everything you said here I'm really glad I bailed on PotA. I haven't been keeping track, but how have the reviews of Curse of Strahd been? They do any better in making that a more cohesive campaign?

I can't say I've heard anything bad about Curse of Strahd compared to PotA, but I haven't really gone looking for reviews. Honestly, I dislike all of those "super" modules that are 100s of pages long, and would have preferred smaller, tighter modules, but I doubt that's going to change from what I can see. The good news for Curse of Strahd, is the lead designer is Chris Perkins and Tracy and Laura Hickman helped with it.

BTW, if you ever wanted to adventure in the MtG world of Zendikar, WotC has released a free supplement for 5E gaming http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2016-04-27

Just got my 5th PHB from Amazon today (I thought for sure when it said upgrade free prime shipping that I'm just doing the trial for to Saturday for a cost or get it on Sunday, they really meant I'd get it on Monday. But nope, got my order today!)

A friend wants to play on New Years with our groups that hasn't played in a few years (since we got heavy into WOW). But prior to that we'd played a little in every edition of D&D (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, Monte Cook's 3/3.5 version and 4th). He wants to make up some characters for people to choose from in advance. Me and another player who are by far and away the most knowledgeable/experienced with D&D game/rules offered to make some.

DM hasn't gotten back to us w/ any details at all as far as level or any requests/requirements for character creation.

While I'm perusing this thing (love reading D&D rule books for some reason...), any thing particular that stands out for character creation in comparison to previous editions? Things to make sure I remember to do or whatever?

Zenn7 wrote: While I'm perusing this thing (love reading D&D rule books for some reason...), any thing particular that stands out for character creation in comparison to previous editions? Things to make sure I remember to do or whatever?

Sure.

~A new core concept is that your character is built around three parts. In previous edition, your character was determined by your race and your class. Now it is determined by your race, your class, and your background. Each fills in a portion of your abilities.

~Scores start out lower (max out at 15 + racial mods to start), and cap lower (20 max for all races.) This actually works out really well, as it gives you choices as you level.

~Feats are different now. Unless you're using the variant human, you don't pick feats during creation. Rather, every few levels you'll have the option of raising ability scores two points or taking a feat. All of the feats, however, are significantly more powerful than in 3.5 (never played 4e.) Some are god-like. Some are just good, but also give you a point in an ability score.

~Oh, and always use the variant human.

~Armor and magic are no longer restricted. If you have proficiency in it, you can cast in it. A plate-armored mage is a possibility (although not at first level - they'd have to invest in some feats.)

~Munchkin characters are much harder to make, and generally not worth the effort.

~The Beast Master ranger in the PHB is useless. Even Wizards has agreed on that point.

~Not character creation, but be sure to note that flanking rules are gone (and for good reason), and that attacks of opportunity are completely different now.

~Speaking of which, every character can do five things per round, but not always. By default, you'll have three: an Action, a Move, and free actions. If you have an ability that gives you a Bonus Action, you'll have one of those, too. If you have an ability or a rule invokes a 'Reaction', then you get one of those. Unless a rule or ability gives you those, though, you won't have either.

~Read up on the advantage/disadvantage system before making a character. It is very significant for some things (like a Rogue's sneak attack.)

~Oh, and casting magic in melee range no longer provokes an attack of opportunity (or the 5e equivalent.) Casting a ranged spell in combat, however, give you Disadvantage on the roll, which is a huge penalty (I've read it is roughly a -5 in earlier editions.\

~Related to the above, but not obvious: The Crossbow Expert (I think that's the name) allows you to cast ranged spells in melee range without a penalty. This is confirmed and by design.

~Magic items are much, much rarer now, and bonuses only go up to +3. The game is balanced on the assumption that the players have no magic items, so it works out fine, and makes magic swords special again.

~Cantrips are now viable attack spells all the way to the end-game. They're your WoW autoattack. Your leveled spells are your cooldowns to burn on important encounters.

Thanks Blackhawk.

WOW... had the impression that this was very much just combining previous editions, but these seem like a significant number of changes from previous editions.

I'd picked up some of that in my reading so far but a few significant things I had not picked up on at all yet.

Feats being a key one. I'd skimmed through the feats and thought A) not that many for how many you usually get (3rd/4th edition thinking, not 5th ed) and they seemed quite potent especially giving you an ability score point in so many of them. Now that I know how you get them, that makes a LOT more sense.

Definitely going to have to read through advantage/disadvantage more.

Just read through proficiency to understand that better too (was wondering how come no one seemed to be getting class attack bonus (to hit) any more. They do, it's just all rolled up in that proficiency bonus.

The proficiency bonus is the same for everyone. What makes, say, a fighter better at fighting is going to be stats he focused on plus class abilities. Look at the Fighter's fighting style, for instance.

Oh, and in case you hadn't caught it, stats and weapons are a little different now, too:

~All weapons with the "Finesse" property can be used with Dexterity instead of Strength without any special feats or anything else (your choice as to which you use.)

~All weapons with the 'Thrown" property can be used at range with your Strength modifier instead of your Dex (your choice.) Non-thrown ranged attacks use Dex.

~All weapons always get the same modifier to damage that you use to attack with them. A thrown weapon on a high-Str fighter will use the fighter Str bonus for both attack and damage. All weapons that use Dex to hit also use Dex for a damage bonus.

One big change (in the right direction IMO) is that the rules have become much, much more general. They're open to interpretation, and that's intentional. There are fewer rules to reference and less time is spent looking in the books for tables of modifiers. It does a great job of bringing back the faster, fun feel of 1st and 2nd edition rather than the tedious simulation that the last couple of editions could sink into. It really is a complete redesign. They sacked the team responsible for 4E after they lost the crown for the first time in RPG history, and took a good hard look at what was working and what didn't.


FWIW, they're also releasing a lot fewer books this time around. No more needing a stack of books for basic character options.

One more thing. In case you hadn't noticed, alignment is largely irrelevant now. There are no spells or rules based on alignment anymore, paladins have oaths rather than alignment restrictions, there are no 'good only' magic items and so forth. The folks at Wizards have wanted to get rid of alignment altogether for a while now, but were afraid of angering the veterans. I think this is an intentional transition toward that. In my own games, I've house-ruled that alignment doesn't exist. It makes for more interesting characters.

If you go back and search through the D&D Unearthed Arcana articles on the D&D website you can find some interesting playtest options for a lot of the character classes, including some tweaks to the Ranger class to make it a bit more competitive. Best of all, they're free.

Also, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide has some good variants in it. My daughter, who was reluctant to play a wizard but did just to round out the party, is loving the BladeSinger class option that it presents.

I would also recommend that if you want to jump right in to 5E, the Starter Box is a bargain, especially for the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure. That's worth the price of the box set alone. One of the best intro (up to level 5, I think?) D&D adventures I've ever run.

I don't know if they sacked the entire team that worked on 4E - there's still a lot of names that were there back in 4E days - Chris Perkins and Mike Mearls (maybe Mearls came later?) for example, but yes there were a lot of people that were let go just before 5E. I do know that a couple of the bigger names that worked on 4E moved to Pelgrane Press and released 13th Age which was their attempt at "fixing" 4E. I have no idea if it's any good, but I know there are things in 13th Age that many people have stolen for their other games (like the escalation die and montages) and it does seem to be fairly popular (not 5E or Pathfinder popular, but the Google+ community seems to be fairly active).

Escalation Die - http://relicspace.forumotion.com/t19-the-escalation-die

Montage - http://20onthedie.blogspot.ca/2014/11/t ... ntage.html

Thanks for all the feedback.

Hentzau, there might some interesting stuff in there, but for now it's a 1 shot and DM is just getting the books. Don't want to delve into there and get excited about something I might not be able to add currently. If we start a campaign though...

What level are you guys starting at? Any clue?

hentzau wrote:What level are you guys starting at? Any clue?

Unfortunately, our DM has gone silent on us, so no clue. We're hoping not 1st since for now, it's a 1 shot. Be nice for something in the 3rd-5th level range. Few more options than 1st level, but not so many as to be overwhelming with the new edition/rules.

I think 3rd level is a pretty sweet spot. Wizards have a couple of second level spells, and everyone has moved on to their specializations at that point. Do hope you get to play, I'd like to hear your opinions.

If I ever get around to running SotDL or DCC we'll be starting at 0 - level; something I have always been against but considering how those systems balance characters I am willing to try to see if it works as advertised

I am really enjoying Adventurer's League D&D at the FLGS. Once a month in a permanent group (me and 2 family, 1 friend and 2 others), we finished power leveling to 5 and now the gloves come off with perma-death in a low magic item environment. My brother-in-law is apparently known for triggering an area effect spell with a prior party's mage too close to the source and all alone...which ended badly for the mage.

hentzau wrote:I think 3rd level is a pretty sweet spot. Wizards have a couple of second level spells, and everyone has moved on to their specializations at that point. Do hope you get to play, I'd like to hear your opinions.

That was kinda my thought. 3rd level you start to get more options, more defined (the specializations).

We actually did play today. DM got the starter box set, we started on that. Used our own created characters (I picked human rogue - using variant humans, took the crossbow expert feat).

5 characters (human ranger, dwarf cleric of life, dwarf fighter (used a 2 handed maul), half-elf warlock and my human rogue). The goblin ambush was brutal. 3/5 party down. The warlock and cleric stayed up and don't think they got injured. We made it through cleaning the goblin cave out. Will pick up from there as level 2 for the next round. Every one had a great time, much fun!

Liked a lot of the simplification, but being familiar with the old rules had us pausing and correcting each other a few different times "that's how it works now? that's different..."

We are going to try to make it a regular thing and either meet monthly for day long sessions like this, or possibly try something on line that we might be able to meet online for 2-3 hours, hopefully weekly.

Really loved my rogue, the xbow expert feat was useless so far (starting w/ a short bow eliminated 2/3's of the value, never ended up being w/in 5' to use the no disadvantage in 5' rule). If I got within 5', usually switched to my rapier.

One question we came up with is with the hand xbow (don't have one yet, but intending to get one, rapier and 1 hand xbow). If I have a rapier in 1 hand and a hand xbow in the other, shoot the hand xbow - do I have to put the rapier away to reload or do people generally assume you somehow manage this w/o issue while holding the rapier still?

Thanks all for the advice and feedback!

That will probably be a discussion between you and your GM. I am pretty easy going and go by the Dungeon World philosophy of "Be a fan of the characters" so I would probably be convinced to allow it with minimal evidence that the trained rogue could do it (Heck I could probably tuck the rapier under one arm while reloading a hand crossbow...or lean it briefly against my thigh). However, the stipulation would be that it could be revisited if there were future builds and feats that made that decision obnoxious and threw off balance and fun

Zenn7 wrote: One question we came up with is with the hand xbow (don't have one yet, but intending to get one, rapier and 1 hand xbow). If I have a rapier in 1 hand and a hand xbow in the other, shoot the hand xbow - do I have to put the rapier away to reload or do people generally assume you somehow manage this w/o issue while holding the rapier still?

Rules as written - loading is not a separate action, but is something you do as part of the attack, however they have clarified in the errata (which I recommend digging up) that you do have to have a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon with the Loading property.

Most people who want to use multiple hand crossbow shots with both hands full will actually carry multiple hand crossbows.

Since you're playing a rogue, I'll toss out one very handy rule that is not obvious: Sneak attack specifies once per turn, not once per round. It has been officially confirmed that this means that if you sneak attack during your turn, then something lets you attack again during someone else's turn on the same round, you can use your sneak attack again.

Example: You move up to an enemy and, for whatever reason, get your sneak attack on your turn. Later in the round, the enemy moves away from you, triggering a Reaction (opportunity attack.) This is a different turn, and you can sneak attack again. This can actually things like Fear or Command much more powerful spells, as casting them on the rogue's target can allow additional sneak attacks as it moves away.

So, actually reading all the rules is good. Apparently, I have a newer version of the PHB that includes the errata, because it specifically says you need a free hand to reload a 1 handed weapon.

This makes that free attack with a hand crossbow from Crossbow expert significantly less interesting as an ability. One free shot. Then you have to take a break to reload. Guess if you are only using the hand crossbow, it wouldn't be an issue. You make an attack action with a 1h weapon (the hand crossbow) and then free extra attack with it (you'd have a free hand to reload). Good thing for ranged backstabbing!

Was liking the idea of rapier and hand crossbow as a fun image. But this might actually work better given I was thinking Arcane Trickster. Thought the illusions would be helpful for creating situations where I get advantage.

Forgot to mention one amusing part of our session. I rolled 3-4 1's in a row for attack rolls. DM's dice were hot, asked him if he wanted to trade. We didn't trade but he did take one of my D20's for his next attack roll. He rolled a 1, scowled and tossed the die back my way.

FWIW, the really powerful part about Crossbow Expert isn't the extra attack (unless your DM is lenient with poisons.) The powerful parts are that A) you can ignore the Loading quality on crossbows (meaning that you aren't limited to one attack per round with them), and the big one is that you no longer take disadvantage on ranged attack rolls within 5' of an enemy. That's any ranged attack roll - crossbows, thrown daggers, shortbows, even spells. You will see a lot of Warlocks running around with Crossbow Expert for just this reason.

If you still like the idea of the hand crossbow, don't give up on it. Imagine a later-period fighter pulling out a muzzle loading pistol and firing it. He didn't reload - he carried two or three. Fire one, drop it, pull and fire another the next round.

Besides, with the loading property neutralized, you also gain the ability to fire the same one multiple times in one round when you do have a free hand. Got your Extra Attack? Fire one hand crossbow three times per round at an approaching enemy.

Blackhawk wrote:FWIW, the really powerful part about Crossbow Expert isn't the extra attack (unless your DM is lenient with poisons.) The powerful parts are that A) you can ignore the Loading quality on crossbows (meaning that you aren't limited to one attack per round with them), and the big one is that you no longer take disadvantage on ranged attack rolls within 5' of an enemy. That's any ranged attack roll - crossbows, thrown daggers, shortbows, even spells. You will see a lot of Warlocks running around with Crossbow Expert for just this reason.

If you still like the idea of the hand crossbow, don't give up on it. Imagine a later-period fighter pulling out a muzzle loading pistol and firing it. He didn't reload - he carried two or three. Fire one, drop it, pull and fire another the next round.

Besides, with the loading property neutralized, you also gain the ability to fire the same one multiple times in one round when you do have a free hand. Got your Extra Attack? Fire one hand crossbow three times per round at an approaching enemy.

I know the main bonuses (the no disadvantage in 5' was the main reason I took it) and that the extra hand xbow attack was just a minor extra bonus. The extra attack just made for a cool image. And I know exactly what you mean with the muzzle loaded pistols, see it in 3 Musketeers movies and the BBCA TV show a lot (hope that's coming back soon, really like that) and the Pirates otC movies (iirc), and that's a cool image too. Probably end up going that route.

Problem with multiple at the moment is even though we're hitting 2nd level, I DON"T HAVE MONEY TO BUY 1, let alone multiple! (I know, it'll come, patience, and it'll be a good reward to look forward to as opposed to wanting magic items - a mundane power up of sorts).

Oh, and that goblin ambush is a notorious party-wiper. And having 3/5 down isn't all that unusual for 5e.

Yeah, that first encounter can go south really quickly. I found it a great wake up call showing the difference between 4E and 5E.

Blackhawk wrote:Oh, and that goblin ambush is a notorious party-wiper. And having 3/5 down isn't all that unusual for 5e.

The DM was a little concerned w/ us going down so much (had 1 person down in the bugbear fight, think that's the only other fight where anyone went down, maybe one other fight). Told him I'd heard that a lot, people going down happens more, but in general, easier to get back up to snuff, so not to worry about it too much. I won't.

The other guy who had created several characters wasn't either, every time something bad happened and someone talked about rolling up new characters, he'd pick up his stack of characters we hadn't chosen - "What do you mean new characters????"

I ran one fight in a different campaign (Sacred Stone Monastery, if that means anything to anyone) with a party of five. When they finally won, one person was left on their feet. The other four were all down, two had been down twice, and one had been down three times total during that fight. The absolutely bit off more than they could chew, but dropping to 0 HP isn't as dire as it was in earlier editions.

Unless the massive damage rule comes into play. I've seen that happen, too.

Ummm...maybe this thread wasn't the best thing to read before this night's session of Storm King's Thunder. DM has been suggesting that the gloves come off. Now I'm nervous despite the party having healing from my War Cleric, the Paladin and the Bard.

Totally jonesing to play some more D&D now. Hopefully this weekend. I still have the players in the first chapter of Storm King's Thunder!

We just decided to hang out and role play with the crazy seer instead of looting or fighting. I have a feeling the next encounter is going to make up for the lost combat.

Whew. Hypnotize saved our bacon. Knocking out one half of the enemy's leadership really helped.

WotC has announced the next product: Tales from the Yawning Portal (The Yawning Portal was an inn in Waterdeep, I believe.)

For use with the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide, this book provides fans with a treasure trove of adventures, all of which have been updated to the fifth edition rules. Explore seven deadly dungeons in this adventure supplement for the world’s greatest roleplaying game:

Against the Giants
Dead in Thay
Forge of Fury
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Sunless Citadel
Tomb of Horrors
White Plume Mountain

I have a bunch of these in their original formats (the old brightly colored folios), but I am actually looking forward to the chance to get them cleaned up and updated for 5e. A classic dungeon crawl might be a nice change of pace, and 5e, with its 1st/2nd edition feel, should be a great system for it.

Blackhawk wrote:WotC has announced the next product: Tales from the Yawning Portal (The Yawning Portal was an inn in Waterdeep, I believe.)

For use with the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide, this book provides fans with a treasure trove of adventures, all of which have been updated to the fifth edition rules. Explore seven deadly dungeons in this adventure supplement for the world’s greatest roleplaying game:

Against the Giants
Dead in Thay
Forge of Fury
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Sunless Citadel
Tomb of Horrors
White Plume Mountain

I have a bunch of these in their original formats (the old brightly colored folios), but I am actually looking forward to the chance to get them cleaned up and updated for 5e. A classic dungeon crawl might be a nice change of pace, and 5e, with its 1st/2nd edition feel, should be a great system for it.

That is too cool. Day one purchase for me. Really fond memories of Against The Giants as well as White Plume Mountain. Tomb of Horrors can suck my halberd, though.