Octopus Overlords

Smoove_B wrote:

$iljanus wrote:Heh, I'm sure Laurie Garrett is getting her next book ready as I type.

I would need to go back and review Betray of Trust (a great book and weapon) to see if she predicted this, but my guess is no. She does cover the other Ebola outbreaks in Africa, so who knows. Regardless, it was written at a different point in time, so yes, she is probably gearing up for an update. She's been very active on Twitter, at least. She's merciless in her accounting, so I do hope she's able to come up with something.

Personally, I'm all for it. I really don't think public health is winning the PR battle - now more so than ever. I don't think the average person truly appreciates all the things we're doing behind the scenes to try and keep society healthy. This is a great opportunity to get that information out there and show people why it's important for us to be proactively monitoring, training and preparing for these types of events.

Among the nurses’ allegations was that the Ebola patient’s lab samples were allowed to travel through the hospital’s pneumatic tubes, opening the possibility of contaminating the specimen delivery system. The nurses also alleged that hazardous waste was allowed to pile up to the ceiling.

...

The Presbyterian nurses are not represented by Nurses United or any other union. DeMoro and Burger said the nurses claimed they had been warned by the hospital not to speak to the media or they would be fired. They did not specify whether the nurses making the claims were among Duncan’s caregivers.

The AP has attempted since last week to contact dozens of individuals involved in Duncan’s care. Those who responded to reporters’ inquiries have so far been unwilling to speak.

Smoove_B wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote: Health systems along for the ride just try to focus on profits.

You might be on to something. From Scientific American:

The Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas next blamed the error on their electronic medical record system (EMR). This is entirely plausible, as the many brands of EMR I am familiar with are seemingly designed to maximize billing and minimize liability, by giving the illusion of comprehensiveness. They are, however, extraordinarily poor for patient care, as they are so cluttered with needless, clinically irrelevant detail.

That might be the single-greatest article I've read on the subject so far.

Smoove_B wrote:From your local CBS News affiliate:

Among the nurses’ allegations was that the Ebola patient’s lab samples were allowed to travel through the hospital’s pneumatic tubes, opening the possibility of contaminating the specimen delivery system. The nurses also alleged that hazardous waste was allowed to pile up to the ceiling.

...

The Presbyterian nurses are not represented by Nurses United or any other union. DeMoro and Burger said the nurses claimed they had been warned by the hospital not to speak to the media or they would be fired. They did not specify whether the nurses making the claims were among Duncan’s caregivers.

The AP has attempted since last week to contact dozens of individuals involved in Duncan’s care. Those who responded to reporters’ inquiries have so far been unwilling to speak.

So yeah, it's a mess.

Smoove_B wrote:From your local CBS News affiliate:

Among the nurses’ allegations was that the Ebola patient’s lab samples were allowed to travel through the hospital’s pneumatic tubes, opening the possibility of contaminating the specimen delivery system. The nurses also alleged that hazardous waste was allowed to pile up to the ceiling.

...

The Presbyterian nurses are not represented by Nurses United or any other union. DeMoro and Burger said the nurses claimed they had been warned by the hospital not to speak to the media or they would be fired. They did not specify whether the nurses making the claims were among Duncan’s caregivers.

The AP has attempted since last week to contact dozens of individuals involved in Duncan’s care. Those who responded to reporters’ inquiries have so far been unwilling to speak.

So yeah, it's a mess.

— Preparation for Ebola at the hospital amounted to little more than an optional seminar for staff;

paulbaxter wrote:
I'm pretty sure it would be a violation of the law for the caregivers to talk to the media about these things. Unions don't get to bypass that sort of thing. They could just make firing someone more complicated.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Also, we have to be careful to believe just the soundbites. What is hazardous waste piled "up to the ceiling?" Is that a few sealed SHARPS dispoals stacked on top of a large pile of regular waste? Or is it piles of soiled linen laying out in the open?

LawBeefaroni wrote: It's not a violation of the law to speak in general terms about hospital conditions and practices. It may be a violation of your terms of employment, but not the law.

Smoove_B wrote:...and just as I'm getting ready to leave for work, I see that the nurse with Ebola reported air travel the day before her symptoms started. Hopefully she's correct in her recollection of timing.

And with that - HELLO CLEVELAND!

Smoove_B wrote:...and just as I'm getting ready to leave for work, I see that the nurse with Ebola reported air travel the day before her symptoms started. Hopefully she's correct in her recollection of timing.

And with that - HELLO CLEVELAND!

J.D. wrote:I'm travelling to Florida in less than two weeks. I'm officially worried now. Even though I probably shouldn't be, I am.

Jeff V wrote:

J.D. wrote:I'm travelling to Florida in less than two weeks. I'm officially worried now. Even though I probably shouldn't be, I am.

?

The problem is in Dallas, Texas. Not Florida, which has it's own thousand ways to kill you. Geezers in Cadillacs are a much more present danger.

J.D. wrote:One big difference between West Africa and North America that I think is being overlooked is that while West Africa lacks the proper hygiene/health care system/etc, they don't travel very far. Most people stay around their villages because they don't have the means to travel. In North American we're always zipping from city to city on planes and cars. Which means if this thing isn't locked down soon it could spread geographically very quickly. Not so much in terms of overall numbers, but just in scope of geography (2 cases in Texas, 1 in Ohio, a few more somewhere else, etc).

Captain Caveman wrote:

Smoove_B wrote:...and just as I'm getting ready to leave for work, I see that the nurse with Ebola reported air travel the day before her symptoms started. Hopefully she's correct in her recollection of timing.

And with that - HELLO CLEVELAND!

Man, this becomes exponentially difficult to track once the cat has even just a toenail out of the bag. How every effort was not made to lock this shit down immediately upon admittance of the first patient is baffling. It definitely exposes some big flaws in the system, as you guys have been saying.

Octavious wrote:

Captain Caveman wrote:

Smoove_B wrote:...and just as I'm getting ready to leave for work, I see that the nurse with Ebola reported air travel the day before her symptoms started. Hopefully she's correct in her recollection of timing.

And with that - HELLO CLEVELAND!

Man, this becomes exponentially difficult to track once the cat has even just a toenail out of the bag. How every effort was not made to lock this shit down immediately upon admittance of the first patient is baffling. It definitely exposes some big flaws in the system, as you guys have been saying.

I just don't get how we're letting people treating people with Ebola fly around willy nilly. They should lock the whole darn team down until it clears up. Sucks for them, but it make a heck of a lot of sense.

Jeff V wrote:I don't know why African countries affected aren't sealed by a military-backed quarantine, either.

NPR wrote:No, Seriously, How Contagious Is Ebola?


*We're talking the "basic" R0 here, for all you epidemiologists. So, the R0 that you get when everyone in the population is susceptible to the disease.
**The R0 is integrated over the time that a person is infectious to others. For HIV, this could be years. But for Ebola, that time is only about a week. So even though they have similar R0s, Ebola's infections per unit of time is much higher than HIV's.

Rip wrote:I wasn't worried but I just heard Obama cancelled a fund raisers to have an Ebola meeting. Now I am terrified. he didn't even cancel any fundraisers for Benghazi, so this is a catastrophic sign.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

NPR wrote:No, Seriously, How Contagious Is Ebola?


*We're talking the "basic" R0 here, for all you epidemiologists. So, the R0 that you get when everyone in the population is susceptible to the disease.
**The R0 is integrated over the time that a person is infectious to others. For HIV, this could be years. But for Ebola, that time is only about a week. So even though they have similar R0s, Ebola's infections per unit of time is much higher than HIV's.

Rip wrote:I wasn't worried but I just heard Obama cancelled a fund raisers to have an Ebola meeting. Now I am terrified. he didn't even cancel any fundraisers for Benghazi, so this is a catastrophic sign.

Yeah, maybe the spread of the disease is not progressing as quickly as he had planned.

Rip wrote:That will teach those gun toting, bible thumping Texas rednecks who they should really be a scared of.

Because she had helped care for Dallas Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan, this health care worker should not have traveled on a commercial airplane, CDC Director Tom Frieden said.

At that point, health care workers were undergoing self-monitoring. They were allowed to travel but not on a commercial plane with other people, he said.

Moving forward, the CDC will ensure that no one else in such a situation travels outside of a closed environment, he said.

Captain Caveman wrote:I have a feeling there's going to be a lot less sympathy for this nurse than the first.

J.D. wrote:

Captain Caveman wrote:I have a feeling there's going to be a lot less sympathy for this nurse than the first.

No kidding. She spent days elbow deep in fluids of a man infected with Ebola, she gets a fever and says "screw it, I'm flying anyway". From an ordinary person I might understand, but from a trained health care worker? Inexcusable.

EDIT: Low risk or not, can you imagine how the person who sat in the seat after her feels right about now? "Hello sir/madam, this is the CDC. You know that flight you took a couple of days ago? Well, a couple of hours before you boarded someone with ebola was feverish and sweating in the chair you sat in. Please take your temperature every day for 21 days and let us know if you start showing symptoms of this disease that may kill you. Have a good day."

Awful.

J.D. wrote:From CNN:

Because she had helped care for Dallas Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan, this health care worker should not have traveled on a commercial airplane, CDC Director Tom Frieden said.

At that point, health care workers were undergoing self-monitoring. They were allowed to travel but not on a commercial plane with other people, he said.

Moving forward, the CDC will ensure that no one else in such a situation travels outside of a closed environment, he said.

What a gong show.

Blackhawk wrote:

J.D. wrote:From CNN:

Because she had helped care for Dallas Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan, this health care worker should not have traveled on a commercial airplane, CDC Director Tom Frieden said.

At that point, health care workers were undergoing self-monitoring. They were allowed to travel but not on a commercial plane with other people, he said.

Moving forward, the CDC will ensure that no one else in such a situation travels outside of a closed environment, he said.

What a gong show.

I'm not sure what the solution is, other than a legally enforced quarantine with officers standing outside the door. There is always going to be someone who should be trustworthy, who is told what has to happen to protect people, who will nonetheless choose their own interests.

Short of some sort of CDC-equivalent of martial law, individuals will always slip the bit and be stupid.

Blackhawk wrote:From what I've read, she didn't develop the symptoms until the day after the flight.

She still said, "screw it, I'm flying anyway" after apparently being told not to travel by air, though.

Captain Caveman wrote:

Blackhawk wrote:From what I've read, she didn't develop the symptoms until the day after the flight.

She still said, "screw it, I'm flying anyway" after apparently being told not to travel by air, though.

The new information is that she knowingly flew with a fever 99.5. It's being reported on major news sights now.

Edit: I say "knowingly" on the assumption that she was self-monitoring and this is why we now know she had this fever during the flight.

Captain Caveman wrote:The clusterfuck grows: apparently the healthcare workers wore no protective gear for the first few days until Ebola was confirmed for Duncan.

Jeebus.

RMC wrote:Man, I work in healthcare in Cleveland... Holy crap... I am not a clinician, but I am getting calls from people I went to high school with and asking if they need to rush to the ER because they drove by the airport on the day the nurse was there.

If this continues to grow, I can only imagine what is going to happen. Hell, I am worried about this as well, but information is the best way to calm people. And not have people ignoring what they were told to do, or not do.

<sigh>