No Man's Sky

[Chaz]

Seems naive that they assumed nobody would meet up. They had to know that if you tell the internet "this will probably never happen", that's basically a challenge, and the internet has a lot of tools people can use to figure out ways to do things.

I also think it's funny they underestimated how many people would be playing. This this has been hyped like crazy for years, and he got death threats when it was delayed. Did they really assume it would only sell modestly?

[ColdSteel]

Sean seems like one of the good guys to me. I love how all the knuckle draggers out there on Reddit just immediately leaped to the conclusion that he lied about everything and never once considered the possibility that something else may be going on. One of the other interviews he did a while back said that unless two players were both on the same instance, they would not be able to meet. Anyone that's played MMOs knows what this is all about. It makes no sense at all to think that they would have designed it as uninstanced MP. Then on top of that, the servers were down a lot yesterday due to load. Again a typical first day issue for MMOs. So it could be one of those two things or some other kind of bug. What happened to benefit of the doubt until you know for sure?

That said, they could and should communicate a heck of a lot better than they do. They invite this kind of thing. I don't think I've ever seen devs so bad at commutating.

So, are the PS4 and PC universes shared or separate? I'm kind of going to be pissed if it's all shared and we're not starting out until the 12th.

They are separate. The PC universe will be pristine and new.

[Holman]

So you're saying by Friday all 18 quintillion planets are going to be named DickButt Cockballs, except for a tiny few with dog names?

Maybe I'll cancel my preorder.

Thanks Obama!

Well.... by my back of the envelope calculation:

18 quintillion is 18,000,000,000,000,000,000.

If Facebook gave away a free copy of NMS to every user and a billion of them installed it, those billion players could name 1,000 planets a day for almost 50,000 years before they ran out.

of course by these same calculations no one should be meeting up on day 1, even on the galactic rim, so something is off somewhere.

[jztemple2]

Potentially dumb question... can you play offline, as in not connecting to their servers? So I can name everything what I want? Honestly I don't care about interacting with the ten million others who will be playing.

[gbasden]

Potentially dumb question... can you play offline, as in not connecting to their servers? So I can name everything what I want? Honestly I don't care about interacting with the ten million others who will be playing.

Not to my knowledge. This is an online only game as far as I know.

[AjD]

Potentially dumb question... can you play offline, as in not connecting to their servers? So I can name everything what I want? Honestly I don't care about interacting with the ten million others who will be playing.

Not to my knowledge. This is an online only game as far as I know.

I believe you can play offline, and the names of things will not update - once you reconnect, they'll all change to whatever the latest names are.

[baelthazar]

So you're saying by Friday all 18 quintillion planets are going to be named DickButt Cockballs, except for a tiny few with dog names?

Maybe I'll cancel my preorder.

Thanks Obama!

I am pretty sure that there is a language filter that prevents naughty names. So you will have to use French or something - Cul de l'univers.

And I blame Obama and Hillary for the delay on the game. I mean, they stopped Charles Babbage from inventing Microsoft or so I was told!

As to being an online game, they have said you can play it without having a PS4 Plus subscription (usually required for online games) so I think you can play it offline. You just cannot upload anything to the discovery index. Gamesradar has, at least, confirmed this: http://www.gamesradar.com/9-no-mans-sky ... -and-more/

[FishPants]

I got this on day one, but just had a chance to play today. I really really really like this game so far, even though I may have screwed the pooch (I ignored a "Space Anomaly" which apparently I need to go to to get an Atlas Pass -- and I warped onward. I wouldn't know what system to warp back to anymore to find it again; this may be a game breaker for me ).

Aside from the atlas pass problem, I found a good way to farm a couple million credits/units on a planet and upgrade the hell out of my ship (well I just bought a new one for 1.8 million).

I've enjoyed it so far, and I know I am just scraping the surface. I've had ship to ship combat (and won!), evaded pirates when I was loaded up with expensive cargo (had to race back to the planet and find a trading post to sell it instead of going into warp), I've tangled with Sentinels (know when to fold em and run!), and I've had a monolith really mess me up.

My only gripe is this stupid atlas pass, without it you can't upgrade your suit inventory -- and that's getting problematic.

[jztemple2]

Useful looking article on Kotaku... Tips For Getting Started In No Man's Sky

The universe is too vast a place to explore without preparing yourself first. Here’s what you need to know to make the most out of No Man’s Sky.

[Lorini]

Found the math just for you guys Let me know if you can understand it, I can't!

With n players playing, and m=10 ^ 18 total planets in the universe, and each player visiting an average of q planets, the odds of NO two players randomly visiting the same planet are approximately:

10 ^ 18 10^18 - (q) 10^18 - (q)(n)
_______ x ___________ x ... x ----------------------
10 ^ 18 10^18 10 ^ 18

which makes the odds of two players visiting the same planet approximately

[(n)(q)] ^ 2
______
2m

If 1,000,000 players, visiting 30 planets each, in a universe of 10 ^ 18 planets, the odds are approximately:

(30,000,000) ^ 2
___________ = 4.5 x 10 ^ -4 = approximately one in 2,200 chance that two players will ever randomly land on the same planet.
2 x 10^ 18

BUT that's assuming that visitation is utterly random. It's not random, because if people can see another person's planet on their starmap, they're likely going to visit it. So instead of calculating whether they draw the exact same number in the 10 ^ 18 cosmic lottery, you calculate whether the volumes of their visible range on their trip from the rim to the center overlap with any other player. Say v is the max view distance you can see another player from, and u is the distance from rim to center of the universe.

You can approximate their visible range volume as a cylinder with radius v and height u. Volume for one player = pi x (v ^ 2) * u. Total volume of universe = 4/3 x pi x (u^2). So again, you can calculate the likelihood that two players' "view volumes" cross:

4/3 * pi * u^2 [4/3 * pi * (u^2)]-(n * pi * (v^2) * u)
_____________ x ... x _________________________________
4/3 * pi * u ^ 2 4/3 * pi * u ^ 2

approx = ( pi * (v ^ 2) ) * (n ^ 2) vn ^ 2 vn
____________________ = ________ = _____ ^ 2
(2)( 4 * pi * (u^2)) 8 (u ^ 2) (2.8u)

It seems like the distance from rim to the center u can be approximated by 100v, or 100 view distances. 100 jumps to the center from the rim? So:

[vn / 2.8 (100v) ] ^ 2 = (n/280) ^ 2

So if you can see another player's star from (1/100th * u) away, you will be more and more likely to cross another player's "view volume" until there are 280 players, at which point it's a virtual certainty.

[jztemple2]

[msduncan]

It's also worth noting that likely 90% or more of those planets are not in consideration as starting areas. As I recall, the "goal" of the game is to reach the galactic center. Therefore, the starting points have to all be out on the rim - you can't start someone in the galactic center if the goal is to get there...

But I don't think people are truly comprehending the size of the outer rim of the galaxy if it is indeed life-sized. Sean Murray himself talked about how players could all be operating in the inner circle of this size of a galaxy (just before the galactic center) and never come even close to another player.

Therefore even with 10 million players the odds of two people crossing paths should be unheard of even after playing many many days. The commonality of people running across others does not make sense at all.

The sheer size of the universe means that everyone is going to be super far apart, and it’s super unlikely that people will even visit the same planets.

[msduncan]

He also said the following:

We're trying to not say exactly what happens, but it's not one ... it's a thing that very rarely occurs, so the chances of you landing on a planet that somebody's actually been to before is pretty rare. It's a nice thing when it happens. The chances of you being in the same space, the actual same planet at the same time as somebody, is something that might never happen. Certainly for an individual player, it might never happen, and it won't be your friends for sure.

So when you do, we want you to be aware of it, and we want you to have a sense of it, and we want it to be a real moment. But it's not like you go off and play deathmatch together, or call Julie, or start meleeing together and tea-bag each other. That is not what the game is about. It's more of aJourney-esque experience, or Dark Souls-esque kind of thing." - GameSpot, March 2016



"People keep saying to us, “Yeah, but what if I knew where [my friends] were? Would I go there?” And it's like, yeah, but they are going to have to stay there for quite a while while you get over there. And then once you get over there you might land on the same planet and then you will say, “I'm on a planet the size of Earth and I am on a mountain. Where are you?” Which is, I know, a weird thing and it's a daunting thing." - Game Informer, 2014



“We could sell that aspect of it and it’s a very appealing thing – it’s a giant MMO! – but it’s not. Even if it is, it’s a terrible one. It’s a really terrible multiplayer game. If you want that experience, if you want deathmatch and that MMO progression there are so many more better games for that. For us what we’re after is a more Journey-esque experience. Even if you come across somebody you won’t even know if they were AI or if they were a player. We just want to create some moments but that’s all. The universe is so big it would be really rare.” - Rock Paper Shotgun, July 2015


Read more at

So in each and every one of these quotes to different news outlets he talks about how rare it is, and also that you would basically be able to see that other person. Clearly this is wrong.

[Smoove_B]

You seem really fixated on this MP element (or at least that people aren't seeing each other and are seemingly on the same worlds). Even in those three quotes you provided it was repeatedly stated that even if you ran into someone else, you might not even realize it's them and that this isn't in any capacity a game where direct player interaction is a feature. From everything I've read it seems that maybe that math was suggesting to him it would be incredibly rare for what happened to happen. But he didn't count on the sheer number of people playing and what that does to the odds.

[Max Peck]

You seem really fixated on this MP element (or at least that people aren't seeing each other and are seemingly on the same worlds). Even in those three quotes you provided it was repeatedly stated that even if you ran into someone else, you might not even realize it's them and that this isn't in any capacity a game where direct player interaction is a feature. From everything I've read it seems that maybe that math was suggesting to him it would be incredibly rare for what happened to happen. But he didn't count on the sheer number of people playing and what that does to the odds.

Player agency is also a huge factor. The fact that players are actively trying to meet up rather than letting it happen by chance radically impacts the probability.

[Victoria Raverna]

You seem really fixated on this MP element (or at least that people aren't seeing each other and are seemingly on the same worlds). Even in those three quotes you provided it was repeatedly stated that even if you ran into someone else, you might not even realize it's them and that this isn't in any capacity a game where direct player interaction is a feature. From everything I've read it seems that maybe that math was suggesting to him it would be incredibly rare for what happened to happen. But he didn't count on the sheer number of people playing and what that does to the odds.

Or the game universe is actually much smaller than several quintrillions planets?

[Smoove_B]

Or the game universe is actually much smaller than several quintrillions planets?

Also true. And as stated earlier, if having that number of completely random planets is tantamount to your game play experience then I totally understand why someone would be irritated.

[TheMix]

BTW, my point was not that there aren't still an immense number of possible planets to start on. I was simply pointing out that there seems to be a focus on the total number of planets. That's the number that keeps being rolled out. So my point was that that number is not a valid starting point. That's all.

Furthermore, I agree with the assessment that people are skewing the numbers by intentionally looking for other players and trying to chase them down.

From Lorini's post, this appears to be the most significant part:

So if you can see another player's star from (1/100th * u) away, you will be more and more likely to cross another player's "view volume" until there are 280 players, at which point it's a virtual certainty.

Since I think everyone can agree that there are more than 280 players, anyone who is actively trying to find another player is not going to have any problem. Jumping all over the developer because you are specifically trying to do something that he hadn't expected seems... overly harsh.

[Chaz]

It seems strange that the developer hadn't expected players to actively try and meet up, especially when given tools that make it possible. Knowing human nature, it was an outright certainty that it would happen basically immediately. If they designed their game on the assumption that nobody would do that, it makes me wonder what other bad assumptions they made.

It'd be like including an emblem editor and assuming that people wouldn't immediately start drawing dicks with it. That's a bad assumption.

[rshetts2]

Theres a lot of hair splitting going on over the alleged MP issue. I do not see where they say you would actually "see" another person in any of those quotes. I do see in pretty much every statement made that it would be extremely rare to run into another person in game. And yes, they have even acknowledged that the fact they have said it is near impossible, will be the impetus for people to try to prove them wrong. Never once have they claimed that multiplayer is a part of the game and every time it comes up they talk about how NMS is not a MP game in any sense of the word. And yet here's the internet on a raging witch hunt to prove that MP does exist in the game and then they get butt hurt when it doesnt happen. Where these people see "lies" I see the developers avoiding absolutes because of this exact issue. The internet is full of people who's only reason for existence is to prove someone wrong on something and then stand on top of some internet hill thumping their chests about how right they were. I would think it was funny if it were not so damned sad.

[Holman]

It's natural for people to compare hype to reality, especially with the most-hyped game in recent memory.

[Chaz]

Theres a lot of hair splitting going on over the alleged MP issue. I do not see where they say you would actually "see" another person in any of those quotes.

He said it in the interview he did on Colbert.

Murray was asked if you could see your own character in the game. He said no.

“The only way for you to know what you look like is for, you know, for somebody else to see you.”

“Can you run into other people,” asked Colbert, “other players on the game?”

“Yes, but the chances of that are incredibly rare just because the size of what we’re building.”

[Max Peck]

Forbes does video game reviews?

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly of No Man's Sky

[AjD]

Forbes does video game reviews?

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly of No Man's Sky

Yep, they've been doing some excellent video game journalism for a few years now. Weird right? I have no idea if any of it appears in the print edition (or why they decided to cover gaming), but I regularly read their coverage now, especially articles from Paul Tassi (sci-fi author; he wrote the Earthborn Trilogy).

[msduncan]

You seem really fixated on this MP element (or at least that people aren't seeing each other and are seemingly on the same worlds). Even in those three quotes you provided it was repeatedly stated that even if you ran into someone else, you might not even realize it's them and that this isn't in any capacity a game where direct player interaction is a feature. From everything I've read it seems that maybe that math was suggesting to him it would be incredibly rare for what happened to happen. But he didn't count on the sheer number of people playing and what that does to the odds.

But the number of players increasing from 1 million to 10 million in a universe of 18 Quintilian planets doesn't significantly increase the odds. It's like me buying 50 lottery tickets instead of 1. It doesn't increase my chance of winning in any statistically significant way.

[msduncan]

Or the game universe is actually much smaller than several quintrillions planets?

Also true. And as stated earlier, if having that number of completely random planets is tantamount to your game play experience then I totally understand why someone would be irritated.

Here's another possibility: The 18 Quintrillion number is the size of the entire Universe including multiple galaxies. Perhaps the galaxy everyone is starting in is much smaller. This is assuming that the secret at the center of the galaxy is a way to travel to other galaxies (if they exist).

[rshetts2]

Theres a lot of hair splitting going on over the alleged MP issue. I do not see where they say you would actually "see" another person in any of those quotes.

He said it in the interview he did on Colbert.

Murray was asked if you could see your own character in the game. He said no.

“The only way for you to know what you look like is for, you know, for somebody else to see you.”

“Can you run into other people,” asked Colbert, “other players on the game?”

“Yes, but the chances of that are incredibly rare just because the size of what we’re building.”

So what? That was last October. Things change in game development as they always have. They have always maintained that two people meeting up in the game was highly unlikely and that the game is not a MP game by any definition. Why do people keep hanging their hats on old news and vague little quotes like they somehow definitively promised a feature that they dont have. Its not in the game, likely never was and was never promised as a feature. The only time its been mentioned is when someone asked them about it in an interview and they replied with vague answers completely avoiding absolutes because that would have made things even worse. They stated it may be possible but for the most part highly improbable. WTF more do you need?

[Chaz]

Because they never walked those statements back. They continued giving vague answers throughout most of the development. If you're going to give vague answers, then it's not surprising that people would go back to the last time you said something kind of concrete. I've worked in game development, so I absolutely understand that it's really likely they were intending to do some kind of light multiplayer, then had to cut it late in the cycle to keep the schedule.

The problem is that they didn't have anyone out there controlling the message and managing expectations. Any PR person worth their salt would have been saying "we'd like to have some kind of player connectivity, but because we're making a huge game with a small team, we can't promise anything." Then, when the release date closed in and they cut the feature, it's easy to pivot to "we weren't able to get that in for launch, but it's something we're looking into introducing in a later patch."

I say this as someone who doesn't want or care about MP features. I just think it's interesting watching, in real time, everyone getting to see what the lack of a good PR person can do.

[msduncan]

I'm more disturbed that people are so readily finding each other (such as it is) so soon after launch. Reddit is full of people who are trying to see another player standing in the same place as someone. I mean people are finding each other. It's not unheard of. In the coming days it may become not-rare based on how quickly people are doing it.

I also vividly remember Sean Murray talking about ships that could seat a guest (aka lobby). I watched this interview and heard it with my own ears. It would have been easy several months ago for someone to say "yeah we didn't get those in or there would be delays. Delays aren't worth it because it's going to be so rare. We may add later". As was mentioned, they didn't do this though.

They should definitely be addressing the issue now that it's become a firestorm on all gaming media sites and forums. Instead? Silence. Silence and a sticker covering up a multiplayer icon.

Anyway... if it seems like I'm bitching, it's because I am. I do want to say I'm having a blast scrolling through all the crazy screenshots of alien worlds that are just blowing my mind. If they failed on communications or spreading players out in this vast universe -- they certainly didn't fail in creating worlds that push our imaginations. They nailed it on that part.

[rshetts2]

This is a small indie studio without a fleet of PR people and attorneys to prep and vette everything that they say. I guess thats why I have no problem with the whole MP issue. I just do not get the uproar. I do not believe there was any intention to mislead on their part. To me its the kind of minor issue that you just shrug off. It strikes me as internet mob mentality more than anything else. Could they have handled it better? Yes they certainly could have. Did they ever promise MP as a feature in any way shape or form? No, they did not. Of course now that its become a thing, people are scouring every little tidbit of every interview the company has been a part of to try and find anything at all to support their outrage. The whole "I told you so" attitude of this thing just seems petty to me.

[Max Peck]

How much PR expertise can we expect from a 15-person dev team?

I wasn't really paying attention to the game over the years (I believed it was going to be a PS4 exclusive, and therefore something I'd be playing despite my interest in this sort of game), so I found this article to be a good read, laying out the history of the studio and project.

No Man's Sky: How the biggest game ever made almost never happened

The questions about what No Man’s Sky “is” will likely continue beyond its release – for now, the fact that No Man’s Sky “is” something at all is a remarkable achievement. Hello Games has, with a fraction of the resources of some AAA studios, created this year’s most anticipated game; a game driven by a childhood love of sci-fi and a yearning to set itself apart. It has commanded the confidence of Sony, and has done so with a quiet grace against the barrage of problems it has encountered along the way.

More lastingly, the game has been considered “critical” to the PS4’s success as a console. “When I signed No Man’s Sky, you have to realise that the gap between PS4 and Xbox One wasn’t so large,” concludes Ahmad. “As far back as 2013 I was talking publicly about the necessity of games by independent developers that would blur the boundaries between traditional indie and traditional AAA. No Man’s Sky did that, and more will follow. Creative risk is what moves a medium forward. No Man’s Sky was a risky project to back. My ambition was always to see a game by an independent developer get the platform of a AAA. [It] looks like that happened.”

From what I've read and seen in the last few days, Sean Murray reminds me of Tarn Adams (Dwarf Fortress) -- making the game he wants to play and hoping enough other people like it for it to be successful, rather than setting out to make a formulaic blockbuster a la Electronic Arts or Activision. More power to him.

[El Guapo]

Here's my only question: whose sky is it?

[Chaz]

I agree that it's being made into a bigger issue than it probably should be. I doubt many (any?) people bought the game based on the promise of MP. Regardless, it has blown up, and it was an unforced error. I expect we'll see more instances of this happening as small indie teams get their games turned into tentpole releases, asked to do the kind of mainstream marketing usually supervised by a PR person.

Really, it just means that the "reserve judgement until a game is out, and you can see what's actually in it" continues to be the best course of action.

[Chaz]

Here's my only question: whose sky is it?

Probably hers:

[Unagi]

Here's my only question: whose sky is it?

burn the land, and boil the sea... You can't take the sky from me.

[El Guapo]

Here's my only question: whose sky is it?

burn the land, and boil the sea... You can't take the sky from me.

So it's your sky currently?

[El Guapo]

Here's my only question: whose sky is it?

Probably hers:

[AjD]

How much PR expertise can we expect from a 15-person dev team?

Yeah. The current game credits list only 6 programmers, aside from Sean Murray. Back when the game was demoed at E3, the total programming team was just four (!) people. Total.

And who's the PR person working the biggest game of the year? At least publicly, it appears to be the lead programmer -- Sean Murray. Not like he doesn't have other things to do...

It's amazing to watch this all go down. Murray seems like a super-creative, charming, down-to-earth guy who's in way over his head (as a game PR guy, not a game programmer). I actually feel sorry for him. He's accomplished something unique that's bound to be very influential (in future game development, as well as other areas). Hard to do in this industry. I can't believe Sony didn't provide him with adequate promotional support. There's so much money on the table at this point.

I can also empathize. I too have found myself suddenly wearing too many hats on projects I was leading, with no one to delegate to and suddenly asking myself, "How the heck did this even happen?!" But the truth is, it's an easy pit to fall into when you're working on a project you started and care deeply about.

[D.A.Lewis]

Actually, I'm glad that two people on the same planet can't see each other. I have no real interest in MP games and this game would not even be on my radar if it was a MP game. Additionally if the main bug in this rollout is that people are bumping into each other too soon and yet they can't see each other, seems to me like the roll out in this "single player game" is going relatively smooth.

[Holman]

Forbes does video game reviews?

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly of No Man's Sky

Not only that, but they've gone Marxist!

Maybe I need purpose. No Man’s Sky doesn’t give me any purpose—at least not yet. Any meaning.

There’s the Atlas, which is mostly just a mystery at this point. There’s a story here, sort of, and lots of lore. But it’s a nihilistic experience; I don’t know why I’m doing what I’m doing, other than to get more Units. A bigger ship. Better stuff. I’m a space consumer, entrepreneur. I’m a capitalist crafter with a capital C.

I’m just not sure why. And pretty soon, it all starts to feel dreary with sameness.