malchior wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
This is why I worry about this type of thing. Are there no controls for this type of abuse or malfeasance? Let's say DeJoy is doing this to destroy the postal service. Are there no repercussions other than his reputation?
Are you talking about criminal liability or the like? It's conceivable, but while the official reason for these actions (efficiency / streamlining) are probably bullshit, they're within the scope of his official duties, and *proving* that he's doing this either for corruption or for election interference is I think virtually impossible unless he either admits it (unlikely) or there's some explicit e-mail or notes somewhere (also unlikely).
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:38 am
by malchior
I'm talking clawbacks, civil lawsuits, and/or criminal liability. We have standards of competence/fiduciary duties/etc. that apply to business leaders in the real world. A plan to destroy working equipment for political malfeasance should be actionable. If it's comes down to they can claim all of this was 'official duties' even when there isn't any reasonable basis for the action...well that isn't great IMO.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:42 am
by LordMortis
Trying to uncover the rationale for this (and failing)
"There are no sorting machines going offline"
-Mark Meadows
One of the documents also suggests these changes were in the works before Louis DeJoy, a top Trump donor and Republican fundraiser, became postmaster general, because it is dated May 15, a month before DeJoy assumed office and only nine days after the Board of Governors announced his selection.
The title of the presentation, as well as language used in the notice to union officials, undermines the Postal Service’s narrative that the organization is simply “mov[ing] equipment around its network” to optimize processing, as spokesperson Dave Partenheimer told Motherboard on Thursday. The May document clearly calls the initiative an “equipment reduction.” It makes no mention of the machines being moved to other facilities. And the notice to union officials repeatedly uses the same phrase. Multiple sources within the postal service told Motherboard they have personally witnessed the machines, which cost millions of dollars, being destroyed or thrown in the dumpster. USPS did not respond to a request for comment.
In May, the USPS planned to remove a total of 969 sorting machines out of the 4,926 it had in operation as of February for all types of letters and flat mail. The vast majority of them—746 out of 3,765 in use—were delivery bar code sorters (DBCS), the type that sort letters, postcards, ballots, marketing mail and other similarly sized pieces. But a subsequent document distributed to union officials in mid-June said 502 of those machines would be removed from facilities.
The May document, titled “Equipment Reduction,” breaks down the exact number of machines the USPS slated to remove by region and facility. Although the document uses terms like “proposed reduction” and “reduction plan” and does not reflect the USPS’s final plan, it provides a general picture of the sweeping changes previously reported by Motherboard about mail sorting machines being removed around the country. It also shows that USPS management is undertaking a broad reduction of the agency’s ability to sort and process all types of mail, except for packages which have been steadily increasing in recent years before booming during the pandemic.
The plan is laid out but the rationale doesn't exist.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am
by Holman
malchior wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
This is why I worry about this type of thing. Are there no controls for this type of abuse or malfeasance? Let's say DeJoy is doing this to destroy the postal service. Are there no repercussions other than his reputation?
The USPS Board of Governors could vote to remove him, but they are mostly Trump appointees.
malchior wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
This is why I worry about this type of thing. Are there no controls for this type of abuse or malfeasance? Let's say DeJoy is doing this to destroy the postal service. Are there no repercussions other than his reputation?
The USPS Board of Governors could vote to remove him, but they are mostly Trump appointees.
Are you sure? All of them had "will finish a 7-year term date" listed, and when I looked at the list of them and a couple were certainly Trump. Most, though, would date back to Obama times if the math works out.
It also shows that USPS management is undertaking a broad reduction of the agency’s ability to sort and process all types of mail, except for packages which have been steadily increasing in recent years before booming during the pandemic.
The plan is laid out but the rationale doesn't exist.
The only remote rationale I can see here is to try and focus on the package delivery, but utterly failing to understand the scope of business the USPS is required to provide.
If tampering with the mail is a federal crime, is whoever's responsible for this up for millions felony counts, one for each mailbox they've impacted?
William D. Zollars was appointed to the Postal Service Board of Governors by President Donald Trump and was confirmed by the Senate on June 18, 2020. Zollars will serve for the remainder of a seven-year term that expires on December 8, 2022.
I took this (the bold part) to mean he had been there since December 8th, 2015 and Trump's administration had just rubber-stamped him staying there.
The Wiki page makes it look like people in the board may have known a clusterfuck was coming down the line. Do they often cut and run just before big policy changes? Looks like DeJoy was installed at "just the right moment" when the board had the fewest people possible.
In March 2020, President Trump nominated Donald L. Moak to replace Alan C. Kessler[12] and William D. Zollars was nominated to replace James Bilbray. The term of both appointments will end in December 2022. David C. Williams resigned from the board on April 30, 2020, and Ronald A. Stroman resigned on June 1, 2020, as deputy PMG. On June 15, 2020, the TEC, comprising five members, selected Louis DeJoy to succeed Megan Brennan as Postmaster General (PMG). Both outstanding nominees joined the board on June 18, 2020. As at August 2020, the board had six appointed members plus the PMG, sufficient to constitute a quorum on most items before the board, five of whom are Republicans.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:37 pm
by Alefroth
Scraper wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:23 am
Don't read too much into the sign. For one thing signs don't vote. I can't stress this enough, SIGNS DON'T VOTE.
Don't be too sure, I've heard ballots have been mailed to them.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:37 pm
by RunningMn9
Right, but he is completing the term of someone else.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:31 pm
by Alefroth
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:31 am
The sorting machines are integral to any efficiency and performance.
I bet they'd be valuable to any company looking to get into the letter delivery business.
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:31 am
The sorting machines are integral to any efficiency and performance.
I bet they'd be valuable to any company looking to get into the letter delivery business.
Apparently some of the ones in TX were thrown in the trash:
Ahead of an expected surge in mail-in voting, recent cuts to the beleaguered U.S. Postal Service have led to months-long delays and the removal of letter sorting machines in San Antonio, according to the leaders of two postal workers unions.
“A lot of mail has been left on the floor, not only at the plant on Perrin Beitel but the stations as well,” said Chris Rincon, president of San Antonio Alamo Area Local 195. “There have been many delays in the mail. There have been many machines that have been taken out of service here.”
At least four letter sorting machines were removed in recent weeks, leaving 28, Rincon said. Each machine can sort about 35,000 pieces of mail an hour.
“They’ve been thrown in the trash,” Rincon said. “They’re not coming back.”
He added, “The removal of the machines will have an impact. The delay of the mail will have an impact. The public is complaining — where is their mail, where is their medicine?”
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:13 pm
by El Guapo
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:56 pm
That's good, but not enough:
He needs to reverse the changes he did, not just suspend the changes he was planning for USPS.
I know, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Really he needs to resign and they need to replace him with a trusted figure (ideally a former Postmaster General), but I doubt that's in the cards.
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:31 am
The sorting machines are integral to any efficiency and performance.
I bet they'd be valuable to any company looking to get into the letter delivery business.
Apparently some of the ones in TX were thrown in the trash:
Ahead of an expected surge in mail-in voting, recent cuts to the beleaguered U.S. Postal Service have led to months-long delays and the removal of letter sorting machines in San Antonio, according to the leaders of two postal workers unions.
“A lot of mail has been left on the floor, not only at the plant on Perrin Beitel but the stations as well,” said Chris Rincon, president of San Antonio Alamo Area Local 195. “There have been many delays in the mail. There have been many machines that have been taken out of service here.”
At least four letter sorting machines were removed in recent weeks, leaving 28, Rincon said. Each machine can sort about 35,000 pieces of mail an hour.
“They’ve been thrown in the trash,” Rincon said. “They’re not coming back.”
He added, “The removal of the machines will have an impact. The delay of the mail will have an impact. The public is complaining — where is their mail, where is their medicine?”
[Inset facepalm here]
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:13 pm
by Smoove_B
Nothing makes me happier than to see public officials being held accountable. It needs to happen more often.
Voting by mail is safe, secure, and reliable. We intend to keep it that way. As AG, I've made it my mission to hold accountable those who try to corrupt our political process.
Alefroth wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:23 pm
I'm surprised that the southern part of Texas is that blue. Heavily hispanic/latinx?
Yes. Extremely.
Bush got something like 40+% of those people in 2004. Then the white nationalists took over the party.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:35 am
by malchior
Trump campaign sues NJ for expanding mail-in voting. The party of *State's Rights* folks.
Governor Phil Murphy’s announcement came as Trump, a Republican, stepped up his attacks on voting by mail, which is expected to increase dramatically this fall because of the novel coronavirus.
The Trump campaign filed a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for New Jersey late on Tuesday to invalidate “Executive Order 177”.
The filing was made as a “complaint for declaratory and injunctive relief” and described the step taken by the Democratic governor as “illegal”.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:00 am
by Jaymann
Doesn't a lawsuit imply that the rule of law is in effect?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:06 am
by Paingod
Jaymann wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:00 amDoesn't a lawsuit imply that the rule of law is in effect?
It's funny to think that anything implies anything else right now. There is no normalcy in politics at this point.
He needs to reverse the changes he did, not just suspend the changes he was planning for USPS.
I know, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Really he needs to resign and they need to replace him with a trusted figure (ideally a former Postmaster General), but I doubt that's in the cards.
IDK how mail sorting works, but GR is a conservative city in a red part of the state. If those machines served the west MI region, Republican ballots will be slowed.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:26 pm
by malchior
Kraken wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:09 pm
IDK how mail sorting works, but GR is a conservative city in a red part of the state. If those machines served the west MI region, Republican ballots will be slowed.
Those people will probably just vote in person. In any case, destroying the USPS has multiple purposes. The voting stuff is just an add-on target of opportunity.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm
by wonderpug
How are right wing news outlets spinning the news about these post office changes? I assume it’s all Obama’s fault?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:22 pm
by Kraken
wonderpug wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm
How are right wing news outlets spinning the news about these post office changes? I assume it’s all Obama’s fault?
IDK about their media, but the nutjobs who leak into my facebook feed regard the USPS as a failed business that's leaching off the taxpayers, and if it can't be turned around then it should be privatized. I presume they're parroting what their media tells them.
wonderpug wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm
How are right wing news outlets spinning the news about these post office changes? I assume it’s all Obama’s fault?
IDK about their media, but the nutjobs who leak into my facebook feed regard the USPS as a failed business that's leaching off the taxpayers, and if it can't be turned around then it should be privatized. I presume they're parroting what their media tells them.
Yeah and the 'libs' point out that the army loses money too but has an essential purpose. The whole thing is another head scratcher. As usual the people buying and repeating the party line are the ones who will be hurt so these plutocrats can line their pockets.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:46 pm
by Alefroth
And then be outraged that the system isn't working for them then vote against their interests because Dems are libs.
He needs to reverse the changes he did, not just suspend the changes he was planning for USPS.
I know, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Really he needs to resign and they need to replace him with a trusted figure (ideally a former Postmaster General), but I doubt that's in the cards.
Looks like he was lying. Cue shocked face.
Yeah, not shocked about that. He really just needs to resign, not that he will (at least not until the damage is irreversible).
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:15 am
by malchior
Resigning won't do much. They'll just put in another flunky to continue the plan. There is no fence sitting anymore. This is a system coming apart at the seams in real-time.
wonderpug wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm
How are right wing news outlets spinning the news about these post office changes? I assume it’s all Obama’s fault?
IDK about their media, but the nutjobs who leak into my facebook feed regard the USPS as a failed business that's leaching off the taxpayers, and if it can't be turned around then it should be privatized. I presume they're parroting what their media tells them.
Yeah and the 'libs' point out that the army loses money too but has an essential purpose. The whole thing is another head scratcher. As usual the people buying and repeating the party line are the ones who will be hurt so these plutocrats can line their pockets.
Pointing out that "service" is right there in the name doesn't help.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:44 am
by El Guapo
malchior wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:15 am
Resigning won't do much. They'll just put in another flunky to continue the plan. There is no fence sitting anymore. This is a system coming apart at the seams in real-time.
I am genuinely flummoxed about what Democrats can do about this before the election in response to the open lawlessness. They can put USPS funding into relief bills, but how can they actually ensure that the money will be spent to bolster mail service rather than get lost to corruption?
I think the only thing that would give me faith that the USPS won't dick around on this stuff would be for DeJoy to resign and get replaced with a universally respected replacement. But of course Trump won't entertain any replacement that's not a loyal flunky, so...not sure what will work.
wonderpug wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm
How are right wing news outlets spinning the news about these post office changes? I assume it’s all Obama’s fault?
IDK about their media, but the nutjobs who leak into my facebook feed regard the USPS as a failed business that's leaching off the taxpayers, and if it can't be turned around then it should be privatized. I presume they're parroting what their media tells them.
Yeah and the 'libs' point out that the army loses money too but has an essential purpose. The whole thing is another head scratcher. As usual the people buying and repeating the party line are the ones who will be hurt so these plutocrats can line their pockets.
Pointing out that "service" is right there in the name doesn't help.
Neither will pointing out that it was actually making a profit until the Republicans passed a bizarre requirement that it pre-fund 75 years of pensions for people not even born yet.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:50 am
by malchior
There is little anyone can do right now. I think we're at a point where we can legitimately say that we have bright light transparency on things and they do not care. They are openly being lawless. That unfortunately is an extremely bad sign.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:43 am
by Paingod
malchior wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:50 am
There is little anyone can do right now. I think we're at a point where we can legitimately say that we have bright light transparency on things and they do not care. They are openly being lawless. That unfortunately is an extremely bad sign.
I think we're also at a point where we should be looking ahead to see what other precious national institutions and resources are left that need to be protected. I hear Trump is looking to rip open the Alaskan wilderness to industrialization and pollution for profit as well.
Take stock of the things you may love about the US. Give them a final hug before January 21st. They may not be there when Biden takes over.
I mean, next week will we hear that Trump is auctioning off the Smithsonian collections to help pay for national debt he created? Maybe NASA will be completely eliminated because it can be privatized. Maybe the Washington monument is blocking his view and needs to come down. That's the kind of shit I no longer think is impossible. The man, and his party, have no rock bottom at this point.
