Octopus Overlords

If employees are paid a minimum wage why should the wait staff get tips while cooks and dishwashers dont get tips?

Anyways..I ordered 2 bags of Funyuns instead of one. One is never enough.

As I understand it, the minimum wage for wait staff is lower than normal minimum wage because it's assumed they also get tips.

Max Peck wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:56 am As I understand it, the minimum wage for wait staff is lower than normal minimum wage because it's assumed they also get tips.

Yes, they get paid sub-minimum ($6.75/hr in Mass). On any shifts that don't produce enough tips to bring them up to $15/hr, the employer makes up the difference. Realistically, that seldom happens.

So then we are paying part of their wage instead of the guy who gets all the money...thats bs.

Thats no different that say I owned a garage and paid my mechanics less than minimum wage and the clients who brought their cars in tipped the mechanic to make up for it and anything left I made up for if forced to..total bs.

I always thought everyone got paid the same and you tipped based on how good the service was. Finding this out makes me simply not want to tip at all and force the employee to find a real job and the employer to have to pay their employee fair instead of fleecing the customers.

"Hey buddy I hear ya dont tip...it may just take me longer to get your food out...and I might not spit in it" racketeering.

And if the owners are somehow forced to make up for lack of tips how do they know how much someone makes in tips anyways? Are they foprcing them to show tips? What if they make more in tips than they normally would have? Are they forced to split it with the mob...I mean owner?


Owner "Hey pal, tip or not tip...no skin off my back if Anita cant buy socks for her new baby"

Anyone who doesn't understand the tipping system really needs to watch this John Oliver video that was mentioned by Alefroth earlier...

watching

Tonight we were seated across from a family that brought a toddler and a baby. They made noise and threw stuff around as small children are wont to do, pushing against the limits of tolerable as the parents made little effort to control them. They left a $5 tip on a $150 check. Our server was NOT happy; she gave them extra attention and a sunny attitude for an hour and then had a big mess to clean up.

Daehawk wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:13 am I always thought everyone got paid the same and you tipped based on how good the service was.

Laws vary by state, but I think a sub-minimum "tipped wage" is common. I don't like the two-tier system and like the way Thrive is getting around it by replacing tipping with a surcharge. MA had a ballot question in the last election that would've eliminated the tipped wage, but the restaurant industry opposed it loudly. Owners said that the extra wages would force them to raise prices and/or cut staff, and servers were afraid their tips would go down when their wages went up. The measure failed.

You tip 20% by default. More if the service is outstanding, less if it's especially poor. $5 on $150 is just insulting. If you can't afford a 20% tip (or surcharge), you can't afford to eat out.

Now let's see if John Oliver can change my mind.

Kraken wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 10:56 am

Max Peck wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:56 am As I understand it, the minimum wage for wait staff is lower than normal minimum wage because it's assumed they also get tips.

Yes, they get paid sub-minimum ($6.75/hr in Mass). On any shifts that don't produce enough tips to bring them up to $15/hr, the employer makes up the difference. Realistically, that seldom happens.

I’ve never heard of that ‘guaranteed’ wage you describe.
I think that must be a specific example , but certain not universal.

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:05 am

Kraken wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 10:56 am

Max Peck wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:56 am As I understand it, the minimum wage for wait staff is lower than normal minimum wage because it's assumed they also get tips.

Yes, they get paid sub-minimum ($6.75/hr in Mass). On any shifts that don't produce enough tips to bring them up to $15/hr, the employer makes up the difference. Realistically, that seldom happens.

I’ve never heard of that ‘guaranteed’ wage you describe.
I think that must be a specific example , but certain not universal.

Do you mean that waitstaff are supposed to be brought up to some level? That's the federal law - they're allowed to by paid $2.13 (or 2.23?) and if tips don't get them to $7.25, they are supposed to be made whole by the business. I think it's at the paycheck frequency though, not shift. So, for example, if in a week you don't make enough tips to get to the federal minimum wage, you're supposed to be brought up to that level.

stessier wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:23 am Do you mean that waitstaff are supposed to be brought up to some level? That's the federal law - they're allowed to by paid $2.13 (or 2.23?) and if tips don't get them to $7.25, they are supposed to be made whole by the business. I think it's at the paycheck frequency though, not shift. So, for example, if in a week you don't make enough tips to get to the federal minimum wage, you're supposed to be brought up to that level.

from the early 90s, I'm trying to remember when a waited tables if I ever had a paycheck (usually bi weekly) plus declared gratuity (12% based on ticket sales at the time) every fall below the minimum wage ($2.32 vs $3.50 federal? $5.25 state? Hard to remember.) I rather doubt I did. However, none of the three restaurants I worked for (Denny's, Red Lobster, and a local place) ever stated they would lift my wage to federal or state minimum if my tipped declaration didn't get there. Usually, if there weren't enough tables, I'd volunteer to leave. What I always hated though, is that this never relieved me of my shift cleaning/prep work that was always put on servers. So come in for a 60 minute shift and flex to go home and still have 30 minutes of other crap to do.

Kraken wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:53 pm You tip 20% by default. More if the service is outstanding, less if it's especially poor.

I was told (years ago) that it's 15% for lunch and 20% for dinner.
I tended to do 18% or better for lunch and probably 22% or more for dinner.

Brian wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 10:53 am

Kraken wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:53 pm You tip 20% by default. More if the service is outstanding, less if it's especially poor.

I was told (years ago) that it's 15% for lunch and 20% for dinner.
I tended to do 18% or better for lunch and probably 22% or more for dinner.

Years ago 15% was standard here. Then fewer years ago sometime after I was a server it went to 18%. AFAIK, it's at 20% here. I rarely eat out any more, so I'm not the best reference. It's hard for me to justify $15 for a fast casual burger and fries and another $4 if I want a non alcoholic drink unless there is a social occasion (for which a table ought not expect turnover, which means us patrons consuming more and tipping a higher percentage). Then you stack 6% sales tax and then 20% on top of that. So a cheap burger fries and Coke ends up $25 a head irrespective of quality or service. Restaurants and their staff should make a living and if that's what it takes, I have to check myself except for on social occasions. I'm OK with that. If it takes $25 worth of effort to allow someone else to make me a burger and bring it to me, I'm OK with making my own food. On the rare occasion I do go out to eat, it's actually usually $40 to $60 a head and that is still for fast casual food again because I am out being social and we're taking up a table for quite some time.

stessier wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:23 am

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:05 am

Kraken wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 10:56 am

Max Peck wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:56 am As I understand it, the minimum wage for wait staff is lower than normal minimum wage because it's assumed they also get tips.

Yes, they get paid sub-minimum ($6.75/hr in Mass). On any shifts that don't produce enough tips to bring them up to $15/hr, the employer makes up the difference. Realistically, that seldom happens.

I’ve never heard of that ‘guaranteed’ wage you describe.
I think that must be a specific example , but certain not universal.

Do you mean that waitstaff are supposed to be brought up to some level? That's the federal law - they're allowed to by paid $2.13 (or 2.23?) and if tips don't get them to $7.25, they are supposed to be made whole by the business. I think it's at the paycheck frequency though, not shift. So, for example, if in a week you don't make enough tips to get to the federal minimum wage, you're supposed to be brought up to that level.

(yeah, that's what I was asking)
I've looked it up - and I learned something new.

However, does that actually work out?
I guess this is my main confusion: I know that (don't hold me to the exact amounts here, just an example) if a waitress has a $150 bill, there is some assumption that she made a certain amount of tip off that, even if she didn't. So that waitress in Kraken's example got a $5 tip from an $150 bill. Would the calculus include just the $5 she got, or would it pretend she got ~$30 in tips for that bill?

I could swear that I was told that a server's tips (calculated by the business) are based on a % of the bill, and not based on the actual money collected.

So, the server could work at a pricey restaurants with shitty tippers - and it looks like they could have earned well over min-wage in tips - but didn't.

I know Scottie Pippen (old Chicago Bulls player) (aka No Tippen Pippen) was famous amongst the waitstaff in Chicago for just ruining a waitress's income is he sat at her table.

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:46 am However, does that actually work out?
I guess this is my main confusion: I know that (don't hold me to the exact amounts here, just an example) if a waitress has a $150 bill, there is some assumption that she made a certain amount of tip off that, even if she didn't. So that waitress in Kraken's example got a $5 tip from an $150 bill. Would the calculus include just the $5 she got, or would it pretend she got ~$30 in tips for that bill?

In the 90s in Michigan you were required to declare the real amount of your tips. No one did this that I have ever heard of. All three places I worked at, and I assume the industry standard, was have your check auto tax declared at 12% of check totals by your employer. No deductions for tip out. So a $150 tab would have been taxed at $18 in tipped wage automatically with no account for anything as variance. This was 30 years ago though so YMMV by time as well geography. I do wonder how that works for everyone else nowadays though. There are tip jars and tip swiping and tapping everywhere.

Daehawk wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:18 am If employees are paid a minimum wage why should the wait staff get tips while cooks and dishwashers dont get tips?

Anyways..I ordered 2 bags of Funyuns instead of one. One is never enough.

When I was in the restaurant world - way back in the late 80s / early 90s - we always had to tip out %1 of sales to the kitchen staff when we cashed out at the end of the shift.

Again - that was back in 90s essentially so I don't know how much has changed there. I was also working in Toronto at the time - not sure if the US has/had different 'rules' etc.

LordMortis wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:52 am

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:46 am However, does that actually work out?
I guess this is my main confusion: I know that (don't hold me to the exact amounts here, just an example) if a waitress has a $150 bill, there is some assumption that she made a certain amount of tip off that, even if she didn't. So that waitress in Kraken's example got a $5 tip from an $150 bill. Would the calculus include just the $5 she got, or would it pretend she got ~$30 in tips for that bill?

In the 90s in Michigan you were required to declare the real amount of your tips. No one did this that I have ever heard of. All three places I worked at, and I assume the industry standard, was have your check auto tax declared at 12% of check totals by your employer. No deductions for tip out. So a $150 tab would have been taxed at $18 in tipped wage automatically with no account for anything as variance. This was 30 years ago though so YMMV by time as well geography. I do wonder how that works for everyone else nowadays though. There are tip jars and tip swiping and tapping everywhere.

So that example you share, if I follow correctly, is in support of what I was saying was a problem, right?

Usually the servers do have to tip out the kitchen staff. The percentage of what they have to give them is based on ticket sales, not the tips that they actually received. Which means that when some self-righteous asshole doesn't tip because "I shouldn't have to subsidize employee wages", it literally costs the server money out of their own pocket to serve that customer.

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:57 am

LordMortis wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:52 am

Unagi wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:46 am However, does that actually work out?
I guess this is my main confusion: I know that (don't hold me to the exact amounts here, just an example) if a waitress has a $150 bill, there is some assumption that she made a certain amount of tip off that, even if she didn't. So that waitress in Kraken's example got a $5 tip from an $150 bill. Would the calculus include just the $5 she got, or would it pretend she got ~$30 in tips for that bill?

In the 90s in Michigan you were required to declare the real amount of your tips. No one did this that I have ever heard of. All three places I worked at, and I assume the industry standard, was have your check auto tax declared at 12% of check totals by your employer. No deductions for tip out. So a $150 tab would have been taxed at $18 in tipped wage automatically with no account for anything as variance. This was 30 years ago though so YMMV by time as well geography. I do wonder how that works for everyone else nowadays though. There are tip jars and tip swiping and tapping everywhere.

So that example you share, if I follow correctly, is in support of what I was saying was a problem, right?

Yes. And you made me look to see what I could find.

https://www.rrgconsulting.com/what-empl ... rting.html

The best I can find for today is that a restaurant is required to with hold 8% nowadays but theoretically a server is still supposed to report actual tips, which means they could reports less on their taxes and ask for money back or report more and pay taxes out of pocket beyond the withholding. Again, I have never heard of such things but that doesn't mean people don't actually bookkeep for better or worse on their reporting.

The Hours Worked method applies only to restaurants which employ fewer than 25 full time employees during a payroll period, and it allocates any tip shortfall (below 8% of total sales) by spreading it among underreporting servers based on their percentage of total hours worked as compared to all the other servers. This method is the least accurate as it does not take into account the fact that servers work shifts with different tipping patterns.

The Gross Receipts method can be used by any restaurant and usually results in a more accurate and fair allocation. It determines the amount that each server should have reported in tips to reach the 8% minimum threshold by comparing the server's gross receipts as a percentage of the total restaurant receipts. If the server's actual reported tips are less than the percentage calculated as above then a prorate portion of the total shortfall is allocated to that employees W2.

disarm wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 3:16 pm Anyone who doesn't understand the tipping system really needs to watch this John Oliver video that was mentioned by Alefroth earlier...

I, for one, appreciate you sharing a video that addresses a lot of these points.

When I was waiting tables at Red Lobster (aka, The Lob) in the mid-'90s, there was some assumed amount of tipping that got reported for IRS purposes, but servers were expected to report their actual tips as well. Everyone totally did that and was fully honest and didn't rely on the low presumed tip for tax purposes, because everyone knew how easy it would be for the IRS to figure out the actual cash tips you received and audit you. Yep, totally not worth the risk of just relying on the low reported tip amount. Of course, this was back when a lot of people still paid cash instead of credit, and credit card tracking might change that calculus.

Also, FWIW, we did not tip out the rest of the staff, so I'm guessing that's a restaurant-by-restaurant decision.

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:09 pm Of course, this was back when a lot of people still paid cash instead of credit, and credit card tracking might change that calculus.

Whenever possible, I will tip with cash. From conversations I've had with wait staff, it is still appreciated.

Isgrimnur wrote:

disarm wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 3:16 pm Anyone who doesn't understand the tipping system really needs to watch this John Oliver video that was mentioned by Alefroth earlier...

I, for one, appreciate you sharing a video that addresses a lot of these points.

Judging by some of the discussion points still happening here, apparently a lot of people still have not watched it...

I admit I haven't watched it. I apologize if he covered my experience waiting tables and so I was being repetitive.

Daehawk wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 9:18 am If employees are paid a minimum wage why should the wait staff get tips while cooks and dishwashers dont get tips?

Waitstaff is considered differently by the IRS...they need to pay taxes on "allocated tips" -- a percentage of the gross receipts of the restaurant, based on the total number of hours worked. Some restaurants do tip pooling to include the other employees, who further make out at tax time because they don't have to pay taxes on tips received.

If waitstaff believes they are receiving less than the allocated tips amount, they need to document what they receive and can dispute the allocated amount.

Seems a complicated and messed up system

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:09 pm Also, FWIW, we did not tip out the rest of the staff, so I'm guessing that's a restaurant-by-restaurant decision.

As I mentioned earlier, in MA the back-of-house doesn't share in the tips pool by law. IDK how that originally came about, but we voted down overturning it last November.

disarm wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:47 pm Judging by some of the discussion points still happening here, apparently a lot of people still have not watched it...

I learned that the sub-minimum tipped wage is established by federal law, not state-by-state, although some states have set both minimums to the same value. Apart from that, my OP was substantively correct.

The server who complained about the insulting $5 tip also said that the offending party had used electronic checkout, whereby one pays via phone app. "Nine times out of 10 that means you're going to get a lousy tip," she said, before learning that I had just checked out via app. Guess I'm the 1/10 who does that and still tips generously.

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:49 pm I admit I haven't watched it. I apologize if he covered my experience waiting tables and so I was being repetitive.

All in good humor, mein Freund.

Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:53 pm The server who complained about the insulting $5 tip also said that the offending party had used electronic checkout, whereby one pays via phone app. "Nine times out of 10 that means you're going to get a lousy tip," she said, before learning that I had just checked out via app. Guess I'm the 1/10 who does that and still tips generously.

I love the trend at some places to give you a QR code you can scan and pay. I still tip well - at least a shiny new nickel!

One of my favorite restaurants stopped using the QR codes on the receipts as they saw a huge increase in walkouts.

They'd see the party get up and walk out and when asked would claim they paid the bill via Toast (or whatever online pay app the QR code was tied to) only to make their escape before payment could be verified.

Chili's has the card reader kiosk thingy at the table but on at least three occasions they had placed the kiosk on the wrong table so we either got the wrong bill or no bill at all.

I have a problem with shrinkflation and cans of tuna. It's not so much that I'm getting less per can as it is my entire life I've used two tbsp of mayo/miracle whip per can of tuna and that same quantity is too much mayo:tuna. I wonder how this will influence my next go at a tuna past salad which is a summer staple. Do I need to start using 2 cans of tuna per pound of pasta and over doing it or underdo the tuna at 1 can? Or do I just start buying larger cans, assuming that aren't 2x two small traditional cans.

Find the old numbers and compare.

/edit - looks like the old standard was 5oz. If the new ones are, say, 4, just add in a quarter of a can.