Octopus Overlords

By that analogy, we would be banning schools.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:13 pm Downplaying ideas as wishful thinking is a GOP/NRA tactic.

And shouting about how things would be better if we just did ________ after it has proven proven impossible is a Democratic tactic. We aren't going to solve guns with our current system. We can either do something else, or we can do nothing. I'm a practical person. I look for the 'something else.'

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:13 pm Downplaying ideas as wishful thinking is a GOP/NRA tactic.

In other news, one of the dumbest people on Earth continues to prove she can always get dumber

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1529998421196537856

Does she think you can buy a plane at a strip mall?

I think she is suggesting we need to better controls on securing access for fire arms. What else could she be implying?

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:45 pm We aren't going to solve guns with our current system. We can either do something else, or we can do nothing. I'm a practical person. I look for the 'something else.'

We aren’t going to solve needless deaths by always throwing up our hands and giving up because nothing has worked before. Every solution only has to work once.

LordMortis wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:53 pm
I think she is suggesting we need to better controls on securing access for fire arms. What else could she be implying?

If she’s suggesting we make it as difficult to get a gun as it is a plane, then I take it all back. She’s good people.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:55 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:45 pm We aren't going to solve guns with our current system. We can either do something else, or we can do nothing. I'm a practical person. I look for the 'something else.'

We aren’t going to solve needless deaths by always throwing up our hands and giving up because it hasn’t worked before. Every solution only has to work once.

I haven't given up. I get tired of seeing, after every single mass murder, "Guns are the problem! We need to control the guns!"

No shit. But we aren't going to control the guns. The government can't even discuss the guns, or study the guns, let alone legislate the guns. That's not changing anytime soon, not until the rot in the system is purged. Repeating 'control the guns' like a mantra is as useful as 'thoughts and prayers.'

So when the only response I see repeated is one that won't change anything, I start looking for a different response. There will be another gunman walking into another school. It will happen. We can either yell about what hasn't changed, or we can change something else while we wait. One may save lives at the next school (and the next.) The other will not.

So by all means, keep chanting - but do something practical, too.

Everything you just wrote sure sounds like giving up.

The civil rights movement went nowhere for decades…until one day it did.

Why?

Because people kept trying to make it go somewhere.

Holman wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:28 pm Meanwhile, killers would just figure out how to hit targets elsewhere.

Like supermarkets, movie theaters, and churches?

Meanwhile, at the convention defending our right to carry guns, you can’t carry a gun.

Notably, no firearms were allowed inside the assembly hall of the convention center on Friday due to Trump's appearance. The NRA said the ban is enforced by the Secret Service.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:17 pm Meanwhile, at the convention defending our right to carry guns, you can’t carry a gun.

Notably, no firearms were allowed inside the assembly hall of the convention center on Friday due to Trump's appearance. The NRA said the ban is enforced by the Secret Service.

But sarcasm aside, the NRA is one of the most corrupt and self serving organizations in America. I’d dance on their grave if they closed up shop.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:03 pm Everything you just wrote sure sounds like giving up.

The civil rights movement went nowhere for decades…until one day it did.

Why?

Because people kept trying to make it go somewhere.

An alternative strategy in a stalemate is not surrender. It's admitting that what you are doing is not going to achieve your goals and coming up with a different plan of action.

If you can't eliminate a threat, you defend against the threat. That does not mean that you give up, just that you plan around a long battle.

As I've argued, the solution to guns is not about guns right now. The solution to guns is buried under a broken government. The route to solving gun problem is to work on fixing the government. Then we will be able to address guns directly. But that is going to take either time or revolution (and I'm not in favor of revolution.) It is going to take time, and a lot more kids are going to to die during that time. So, while we work on the long-term solution, doesn't it make sense to take steps to reduce the deaths? And unlike guns, it isn't as politically volatile as to be untouchable.

Gun reform is something more than half our nation wants. And it’s growing in support. Should we try to address our dysfunctional government? Sure. Should we try to find ways to improve safety? Of course. But let’s not give up on addressing gun reform. ALL reform has met with resistance. But you keep on fighting because it’s the right thing to do, and because the alternative is increasingly becoming more and more intolerable.

The NRA and their supporters want to make it hard to get meaningful gun reform laws passed. They want you to give up so they can get even more guns into our society. The worst thing you can do is to let them because you don’t think we can fight them.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:36 pm Gun reform is something more than half our nation wants.

So is free access to abortion.

And I did not say that we should quit fighting. I said that we're in a stalemate and need to change how we're fighting.

But we aren't going to control the guns.

Repeating 'control the guns' like a mantra is as useful as 'thoughts and prayers.'

Your words.

As for abortion rights, people are fighting against losing those rights. Not looking for alternatives because they think they can’t change anything.

My stance is, everything you said is fine….up until you start telling people that trying to do anything about guns is useless. Then I have to disagree.

Perhaps I shouldn't let context spread out between posts.

We are not going to to control guns by yelling for gun control. We are going to control guns by ensuring that the system of government we have is capable of responding to controversial issues.

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:55 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:45 pm We aren't going to solve guns with our current system. We can either do something else, or we can do nothing. I'm a practical person. I look for the 'something else.'

We aren’t going to solve needless deaths by always throwing up our hands and giving up because it hasn’t worked before. Every solution only has to work once.

I haven't given up. I get tired of seeing, after every single mass murder, "Guns are the problem! We need to control the guns!"

No shit. But we aren't going to control the guns. The government can't even discuss the guns, or study the guns, let alone legislate the guns. That's not changing anytime soon, not until the rot in the system is purged. Repeating 'control the guns' like a mantra is as useful as 'thoughts and prayers.'

So when the only response I see repeated is one that won't change anything, I start looking for a different response. There will be another gunman walking into another school. It will happen. We can either yell about what hasn't changed, or we can change something else while we wait. One may save lives at the next school (and the next.) The other will not.

So by all means, keep chanting - but do something practical, too.

Secured schools maybe good enough solution, but then you'll still have to protect the students when they're not in school. So you need secured transport for them. You need to secure other places like mall, park, church, etc.

So what is next? Turning every place into fortress?

I think the solution that you proposed is also as useful as "thoughts and prayers" because it is impossible to do.

It is the single greatest concentration of potential targets, and it is the most accessible for outsiders. I'm not convinced that it wouldn't save lives.

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:53 pm Perhaps I shouldn't let context spread out between posts.

We are not going to to control guns by yelling for gun control. We are going to control guns by ensuring that the system of government we have is capable of responding to controversial issues.

What makes you think that’s a more realistic goal than demanding significant gun reform?

So, what laws do you want? Just no firearms for civilians? No hunting with firearms? Police don't have access to firearms when not at work. (We don't trust police) Military only have access when on base. (We don't trust them too.)

All firearms are illegal. All law-abiding civilians must give up any. Police will storm any house that did not comply to give firearms up.

How far do you want to go?

That’s the usual NRA tactic. Respond to every mention of gun reform by immediately screaming that that means getting rid of all guns. “It’s a slippery slope!” Is the battle cry when cornered.

Instead of regurgitating their talking points, do a little research first.

Mirror

With Salvador Ramos still rampaging through Robb Elementary school, a boy has said that officers who had finally entered the school asked hiding pupils to call out so they could find them.

A boy was hiding with four others under a table that had a cloth covering it, which he thinks meant the 18-year-old shooter did not see them.

The youngster, whose parents did not want his name revealed, told how they were doing their best to keep hidden.

"When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy told Kens5.

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:53 pm Perhaps I shouldn't let context spread out between posts.

We are not going to to control guns by yelling for gun control. We are going to control guns by ensuring that the system of government we have is capable of responding to controversial issues.

What makes you think that’s a more realistic goal than demanding significant gun reform?

It may not be, but without it, gun control is a non-starter. As is addressing climate change, health care, and a dozen other issues that the majority of the public want, but the politicians can't touch.

It has to be the priority, and it is the first step to addressing mass murders.

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm So, what laws do you want? Just no firearms for civilians? No hunting with firearms? Police don't have access to firearms when not at work. (We don't trust police) Military only have access when on base. (We don't trust them too.)

All firearms are illegal. All law-abiding civilians must give up any. Police will storm any house that did not comply to give firearms up.

How far do you want to go?

Start somewhere. Regulate AR-15 and AK pattern rifles. It's not perfect? So what.

Restrict sales to under 21s.

And how about a national FOID?

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm So, what laws do you want? Just no firearms for civilians? No hunting with firearms? Police don't have access to firearms when not at work. (We don't trust police) Military only have access when on base. (We don't trust them too.)

All firearms are illegal. All law-abiding civilians must give up any. Police will storm any house that did not comply to give firearms up.

How far do you want to go?

Let's start with civilians can't own guns designed for killing multiple humans with maximum efficiency.

Hunting and target shooting? No problem. Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions. Semiautomatic rifles with large magazines? What do you need one of those for, unless deer start shooting back?

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:23 pm

hepcat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:53 pm Perhaps I shouldn't let context spread out between posts.

We are not going to to control guns by yelling for gun control. We are going to control guns by ensuring that the system of government we have is capable of responding to controversial issues.

What makes you think that’s a more realistic goal than demanding significant gun reform?

It may not be, but without it, gun control is a non-starter. As is addressing climate change, health care, and a dozen other issues that the majority of the public want, but the politicians can't touch.

It has to be the priority, and it is the first step to addressing mass murders.

I disagree. You make it sound like the only path forward is by reforming politics first and that everything else will follow. Going back to my earlier analogy, the civil rights movement faced heavy opposition by many politicians. But they kept fighting and they eventually overcame much of that opposition…at least enough so that they were able to get meaningful reforms passed. If they’d just thrown up their hands and told everyone to wait until the government came round to their their way of thinking, or there was a more sensible and compassionate majority in Washington, where do you think we’d be?

Again, you call for something that’s needed. But let’s not wait for that battle to be won before trying to make things better in other areas. Calling for gun reform is not a lost cause. Let’s not tell everyone it is.

All the police that responded should be fired and they should loose all medical and retirement. Unfortunately, they followed the chain of command. They do this not out of common-sense duo to lawyers that will screw them for trying but failing.

They did nothing for over an hour. Unless they knew all victims were dead, they should have stormed the room to save those that were wounded.

It was a complete utter failure of the police department to act. The people you trust with firearms.

Kraken wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:29 pm

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm So, what laws do you want? Just no firearms for civilians? No hunting with firearms? Police don't have access to firearms when not at work. (We don't trust police) Military only have access when on base. (We don't trust them too.)

All firearms are illegal. All law-abiding civilians must give up any. Police will storm any house that did not comply to give firearms up.

How far do you want to go?

Let's start with civilians can't own guns designed for killing multiple humans with maximum efficiency.

Hunting and target shooting? No problem. Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions. Semiautomatic rifles with large magazines? What do you need one of those for, unless deer start shooting back?

Texas has a huge problem with feral hogs. Using a bolt action rifle will not solve the problem.

https://greatamericanoutdoors.com/2021/ ... ing-worse/

Kraken wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:29 pm Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions

How do you safely store a weapon when seconds matter?

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:44 pm

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:42 pm Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions

How do you safely store a weapon when seconds matter?

That was Kraken who wrote that. And I agree with him. Safe storage trumps immediate access every time. I believe there are more kids killed by easily accessible guns in a home than homeowners killed because they couldn’t get to a gun in 2 minute or less.

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:42 pm

Kraken wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:29 pm

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm So, what laws do you want? Just no firearms for civilians? No hunting with firearms? Police don't have access to firearms when not at work. (We don't trust police) Military only have access when on base. (We don't trust them too.)

All firearms are illegal. All law-abiding civilians must give up any. Police will storm any house that did not comply to give firearms up.

How far do you want to go?

Let's start with civilians can't own guns designed for killing multiple humans with maximum efficiency.

Hunting and target shooting? No problem. Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions. Semiautomatic rifles with large magazines? What do you need one of those for, unless deer start shooting back?

Texas has a huge problem with feral hogs. Using a bolt action rifle will not solve the problem.

https://greatamericanoutdoors.com/2021/ ... ing-worse/

By the way here is how some make 45 auto with nothing more than a drill and file.

Further proof we need gun reform. Thanks.

That article says feral hogs can be hunted, not that they’re wearing body armor. Or killing anyone.

US's firearm-related death rate per 100K per year is around 12.21 and UK is 0.23.

Australia is 1.04 and New Zealand is 1.07.

Philippines where more restricted gun ownership but not outright ban, where they made those illegal guns with drill and file is 8.9.

So seem like the solution is clear. Even Philippines which has gun culture like US and with illegal guns available, the statistic is still better than US.

In countries with more strict restrictions, they're much better than US.

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:42 pm

Texas has a huge problem with feral hogs. Using a bolt action rifle will not solve the problem.

Why not? 60,000,000 buffalo were killed with breach loaders.

….and quite a few with bows and arrows.

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:44 pm

Kraken wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:29 pm Home defense? Sure, with some training and safe-storage conditions

How do you safely store a weapon when seconds matter?

Holster.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:24 pm Start somewhere.

How about a waiting period for purchase, like a the minimum three days, though I'd go longer? Better regulation on who can sell guns?

Just to close out the 'locked door' misdirection. From the NYT story:

Minutes later, the gunman was inside, pulling open a side door that should have been locked but had been propped open by a teacher who had gone outside to retrieve her cellphone.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/ ... 6753465344

Maybe they could hire some 4th graders?

Skinypupy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:54 am Maybe they could hire some 4th graders?

Or the Border Patrol.

UsulofDoom wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:42 pm Texas has a huge problem with feral hogs. Using a bolt action rifle will not solve the problem.

The world is filled with noxious plants and insects that require property owners to hire a licensed professional to come and deal with - someone that knows how to correctly apply a chemical to address a problem because they're trained, licensed and regulated. Sure, you can go to your local hardware store and purchase weaker (but also highly regulated) chemical solutions at retail, but sometimes the problem is so significant you need to hire a professional because they have access to the right gear.

If you're telling me the only solution to dealing with feral hogs is an AR-15 (or equivalent) then I guess a business that specializes in using said rifles to clear property is going to be in demand - invest if you can.