Octopus Overlords

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:34 pm Look, all you have to do is convince McConnell to support impeachment and removal. Easy peasy.

This. If its not going anywhere, it's not going anywhere. If it doesn't go anywhere, then for Trump and tens of millions of Americans, the D party's situation gets marginally worse.

This is all terrible, and clearly it's absurd that no consequences are forthcoming immediately. But we has the system we has.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:26 pmWhen you take someone to the mat, and they beat the rap, their prestige is enhanced. If Trump were to be impeached and acquitted again, it would only build his narrative that the state is baselessly persecuting him.

Baselessly persecuting him over brazenly open acts of sedition. I'm ok with that. If he wants to brag about trying to subvert democracy and 74+ million people want to cheer him on, terrific. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't call out bullshit when bullshit is happening.

That's the thing, though. If he's acquitted again (and he would be) then it doesn't make it clear that this is not acceptable. Quite the contrary.

I think I disagree. I think helps make it clear that (1) this is wrong and deserves review under our current system of government and that (2) enablers helping him do wrong it doesn't make it right.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:57 am

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:54 amWhy aren't they impeaching him again? Optics? Because the traitors in the GOP will continue to absolve Trump? Who cares.

Because last time they impeached him, Trump won. They don't want to hand him another win if they don't have to.

He didn't win. *We all lost*. Still don't buy into this Trump wins narrative. He will be remembered as the worst President in America history. He'll be remembered as a bumbling, negligent murderer of his people. He won nothing.

Heck if human society continues a long time he'll be remembered alongside the greatest failures in world history (think Nero/Caligula level) with a near perfect records of how shitty a human being he was. I'm fine with that and think that it was important to try to hold him accountable and show the world our values.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:40 pm

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:26 pmWhen you take someone to the mat, and they beat the rap, their prestige is enhanced. If Trump were to be impeached and acquitted again, it would only build his narrative that the state is baselessly persecuting him.

Baselessly persecuting him over brazenly open acts of sedition. I'm ok with that. If he wants to brag about trying to subvert democracy and 74+ million people want to cheer him on, terrific. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't call out bullshit when bullshit is happening.

That's the thing, though. If he's acquitted again (and he would be) then it doesn't make it clear that this is not acceptable. Quite the contrary.

I think I disagree. I think helps make it clear that (1) this is wrong and deserves review under our current system of government and that (2) enablers helping him do wrong it doesn't make it right.

Also bear in mind that if we impeached Trump for every impeachable offense, we'd probably be up to what, a few dozen impeachments? How many impeachments do you think it would be before that's no longer a front page story? I think no more than 5.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pmAlso bear in mind that if we impeached Trump for every impeachable offense, we'd probably be up to what, a few dozen impeachments? How many impeachments do you think it would be before that's no longer a front page story? I think no more than 5.

In time, the idea that we normalized/legitimized Trump's behavior (and broadly the behavior of the GOP) is going to be our collective undoing. Every single time he did something and experienced zero consequences, he pulled a thread out of America's tapestry of democracy. I know he's a bumbling moron. I fear the next Trump won't be.

It's cute that you all expect this Congress to do anything.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:23 pm

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pmAlso bear in mind that if we impeached Trump for every impeachable offense, we'd probably be up to what, a few dozen impeachments? How many impeachments do you think it would be before that's no longer a front page story? I think no more than 5.

In time, the idea that we normalized/legitimized Trump's behavior (and broadly the behavior of the GOP) is going to be our collective undoing. Every single time he did something and experienced zero consequences, he pulled a thread out of America's tapestry of democracy. I know he's a bumbling moron. I fear the next Trump won't be.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, that began long before Trump took office and has been a steep and steady thing since he became President, occurring hundreds upon hundreds of times, over the past four years. There is zero chance that Trump is successfully removed from office via impeachment (that's 0.00 for the Fox News graphic designers). Our problems lie much deeper than Trump, and repudiating just Trump's latest escapades would (IMO) be like patching up a totaled car by spray-painting the passenger door. Any solution needs to also repudiate Mitch McConnell specifically, the GOP as a whole, and our system of government's reliance on 'norms' for so much vital operation.

In short, we're fucked.

In a democracy, the voters are the ultimate line of defense. You cannot Justice Department your way out of an electorate determined to go in a certain direction. Even if you go the Turkey route and empower the military to remove any elected politician who gets a little too comfortable...eventually the politician wins. An informed and engaged populace is the only protection that ultimately matters.

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:29 pm we're fucked.

It's been a while.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm An informed and engaged populace is the only protection that ultimately matters.

So, in short, we're fucked.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm In a democracy, the voters are the ultimate line of defense.

As a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pm

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm In a democracy, the voters are the ultimate line of defense.

As a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

By voting for your senators, who in turn, vote for Majority leader.

Screaming about "election fraud" with zero evidence while actual voter disenfranchisement goes on in plain sight is peak America.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status ... 3909876736

Voting rights groups are alarmed after Cobb County cut its number of early voting sites in half:

Many shuttered polling sites are located in minority neighborhoods. The next closest sites are 5 to 12 miles away and public transportation is limited.

Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:55 pm By voting for your senators, who in turn, vote for Majority leader.

I keep trying; it's not working.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pmAs a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

At your local polling place. Mitch McConnell, after all, isn't really the problem - it's the 50 OTHER Senators who agree to caucus for Mitch that makes him so powerful.

Now it IS true that unless the Democrats can start appealing to people who don't live on the coasts, we're going to have a bad time for the Senate, but that's another problem.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:09 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pmAs a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

At your local polling place. Mitch McConnell, after all, isn't really the problem - it's the 50 OTHER Senators who agree to caucus for Mitch that makes him so powerful.

Now it IS true that unless the Democrats can start appealing to people who don't live on the coasts, we're going to have a bad time for the Senate, but that's another problem.

Are you considering the Great Lakes a coast? Because among Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, 7 of 8 Senate seats and all four governorships are held by Dems.

Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:55 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pm

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm In a democracy, the voters are the ultimate line of defense.

As a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

By voting for your senators, who in turn, vote for Majority leader.

Yeah that isn't working out. As we can see by...looking around at this hellscape.

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:15 pm

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:09 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pmAs a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

At your local polling place. Mitch McConnell, after all, isn't really the problem - it's the 50 OTHER Senators who agree to caucus for Mitch that makes him so powerful.

Now it IS true that unless the Democrats can start appealing to people who don't live on the coasts, we're going to have a bad time for the Senate, but that's another problem.

Are you considering the Great Lakes a coast? Because among Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, 7 of 8 Senate seats and all four governorships are held by Dems.

No. No. Somehow the Democrats should win over states that have the same population as Manhattan south of Central Park who haven't voted in a Democratic Senator in over 40 years. Change is just around the corner.

As long as 46% percent think what we saw the last 4 years was just fine, any meaningful change is going to face a very tough challenge.

Gerrymandering may secure individual seats in places, but the popular vote don't lie. 46 percent of the country saw the Trump/McConnell/Republican dumspter fire of the past years and decided to have another go with it.

Concerted effort can get individuals out, Trump is gone, eventually McConnell will be gone, but since so much of the country is in approval of what they are doing, they are just going to get replaced with other folks doing similar work.

The only way to get true change, is to change the voters, but many of the existing voters seem determined to stay the course. Trump was likely correct about shooting a man on 4th ave (or however that quote went), he would still get 46% percent.

I believe that our only course to meaningfully change this country is to focus efforts on the youth. Those who have not yet sworn themselves to being lifelong republicans regardless of cost. We need to teach the children and young adults to make meaningful choices with their votes. It is a difficult road because so much political climate is focused on the NOW NOW NOW, and every election is filled with the dire consequence of "Vote for X, or you are throwing your vote away." If we can get the next generation to make good choices, researched choices, thoughtful choices, then hopefully everybody who is old and wicked and set in their ways will eventually die out before the country is irreparably damaged.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:23 pm

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pmAlso bear in mind that if we impeached Trump for every impeachable offense, we'd probably be up to what, a few dozen impeachments? How many impeachments do you think it would be before that's no longer a front page story? I think no more than 5.

In time, the idea that we normalized/legitimized Trump's behavior (and broadly the behavior of the GOP) is going to be our collective undoing. Every single time he did something and experienced zero consequences, he pulled a thread out of America's tapestry of democracy. I know he's a bumbling moron. I fear the next Trump won't be.

This is all a symptom of the fact that we have an incredibly flawed political systems coming from an outdated and flawed constitution. The Senate is a MASSIVE problem given its antidemocratic structure. Unless and until we fix that, we are going to have a ton of problems, including a regular inability to hold conservative presidents accountable.

I'm not saying that I'm opposed to tilting at impeachment windmills. I'm just saying that it's not going anywhere or likely to achieve anything under our current system.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm I'm not saying that I'm opposed to tilting at impeachment windmills. I'm just saying that it's not going anywhere or likely to achieve anything under our current system.

It provides irrefutable evidence that said system is broken and in desperate need of fixing.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:13 pm

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm I'm not saying that I'm opposed to tilting at impeachment windmills. I'm just saying that it's not going anywhere or likely to achieve anything under our current system.

It provides irrefutable evidence that said system is broken and in desperate need of fixing.

1,000%, yes.

To be fair to America, our constitution was the first democratic constitution in modern history. It's not surprising that there are very deep flaws in it.

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:13 pm

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm I'm not saying that I'm opposed to tilting at impeachment windmills. I'm just saying that it's not going anywhere or likely to achieve anything under our current system.

It provides irrefutable evidence that said system is broken and in desperate need of fixing.

1,000%, yes.

To be fair to America, our constitution was the first democratic constitution in modern history. It's not surprising that there are very deep flaws in it.

And yet we see deep disbelief verging on delusion that all we need is to double down on this system. We see it in the 'very serious people' and see it here in spades. Despite a near miss with actual authoritarianism. They laugh off Trump's attempts at staying in power as sad and proof the system works. So we're back to the same pre-Trump media narratives except more damage has occurred.

That said, as individuals we can't do much. This system has a high likelihood of a major failure even this decade. The reason I talk about it personally is to encourage folks to prepare themselves. We are going to live through a time of even more turmoil than we have already seen. If you are wise, you should be preparing for it even if it doesn't come to pass. The signs are everywhere that we are beset with major crisis after major crisis and the capacity to deal with them is slipping away.

Just follow the discussions about the 'stimulus' they are talking about right now. Most people are just ignoring it. And in that darkness McConnell and crew are laser focused on lawsuit protection for employers. Really? That is their priority? In return, they are 'offering' Democrats a one-time $600 payment and no unemployment extension. And the deadliest days in American history outside normal times are happening right now every day. It's pure madness.

Edit: Apropos pro to this - seventeen states just piled into the Texas lawsuit. This system is deeply sick.

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/13 ... 5580765187

John “Bucky” Mcculley, who Hamilton County Sheriff's Office Jim Hammond just reappointed as chair of the sheriffs Civil Service Advisory Board for 3 more years... is on Facebook calling Vice-President-elect Kamala Harris a “whore” who “sucked her way to the top.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:53 pm

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm In a democracy, the voters are the ultimate line of defense.

As a NJ resident, where do I vote to remove Mitch McConnell's choke hold on democracy?

In Georgia, with your wallet.

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:14 pmIn Georgia, with your wallet.

Really? I feel like recent elections have shown that dumping enormous amounts of money into other state's elections is not a very good use of resources. I'm open to correction about that, though.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:25 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:14 pmIn Georgia, with your wallet.

Really? I feel like recent elections have shown that dumping enormous amounts of money into other state's elections is not a very good use of resources. I'm open to correction about that, though.

Huge amounts into hopeless races, at least (eg McGrath). My understanding is that both of the GA races are pretty close right now, though. I also imagine that essentially a single race (since donations from out of state are going to approximately 100% support both of a party's candiates) that will determine how the next 4 years go (gridlock vs progressive movement) on their own represent a... different situation than anything we've seen recently.

Yeah, these are very close races (Perdue/Ossoff especially), and the game is entirely about turnout. Media drives that but so do volunteer efforts.

I'm giving what I can afford right now once a week. It will probably only buy pizza for a roomful of GOTV volunteers, but I've done that kind of work, and pizza helps.

malchior wrote:Edit: Apropos pro to this - seventeen states just piled into the Texas lawsuit. This system is deeply sick.

I was talking to someone today about this.

I don't doubt at all the system is sick and broken, but the fact remains that the judiciary held in this election. The GOP attempt to overturn this election got laughed out of court in multiple states at multiple levels.

So the question is - how many more times do Republicans attempt this losing strategy?

I don't know the answer. Maybe they keep attempting it until they get lucky. Maybe this was a test of the system, and the next time their tactics will be much more refined, and iteration over iteration we'll reach the point that they succeed in subverting democracy.

Or maybe this is an aberration, fueled by a madman, and once that madman is removed you have few leaders willing to risk this insanity. At least to this extent.

Again, I don't know the answer. I just think it's an interesting discussion.

One interesting observation I saw amidst the deluge of "this is both stupid and scary" on legal Twitter was this one.

Many of the Republican states would've been been a lot more reluctant to sign on to these kinds of legal arguments -- which would expose them to tons of litigation over their own laws -- if they thought it had any chance of success.

If this bullshit case is somehow successful (which I don't think it has a snowball's chance in hell of being, but...2020), I expect that blue states would immediately flood the courts with their own slew of lawsuits against red state voting practices.

Where that would ultimately leave us...who knows.

YellowKing wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:10 pmSo the question is - how many more times do Republicans attempt this losing strategy?

Trump will never stop, because that's just not in his nature. He'll go to his grave saying (and maybe actually believing) that he totally won and the election was stolen from him by the "deep state" or whatever.

Republicans at large will probably keep at it until they actually accept that it's a losing strategy. Hopefully that's before 2022....but I dunno. QAnon has more followers than I ever would have thought possible.

Democracy: ...

Kyle Reese: “Listen, and understand. That Trump is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”

Skinypupy wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:15 pm If this bullshit case is somehow successful (which I don't think it has a snowball's chance in hell of being, but...2020), I expect that blue states would immediately flood the courts with their own slew of lawsuits against red state voting practices.

Where that would ultimately leave us...who knows.

Hungary?

A supreme court that would rule in favor of this Texas case would ignore any counter-claims by Blue states.

Little Raven wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:20 pm

YellowKing wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:10 pmSo the question is - how many more times do Republicans attempt this losing strategy?

Trump will never stop, because that's just not in his nature. He'll go to his grave saying (and maybe actually believing) that he totally won and the election was stolen from him by the "deep state" or whatever.

Republicans at large will probably keep at it until they actually accept that it's a losing strategy. Hopefully that's before 2022....but I dunno. QAnon has more followers than I ever would have thought possible.

Trump's niece made the point that Trump is the only person she's known who is capable of gaslighting himself.

That's how you know the party of Trump is a cult. The leader is delusional, but the faith requires that the leader's delusions be taken as true, and the followers do it.

https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1 ... 68960?s=20

Zoe Tillman is a great follow for all of these court matters.

Gods, I hate these treasonweasels.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status ... 8229154816

Georgia Republicans are vowing to introduce legislation to limit mail voting despite, no evidence of fraud.

A day after Trump's loss in the state was reaffirmed, Republicans pledged to unwind the absentee voting system they themselves created in 2005.

My state was one of the 17 who joined on Texas' side. I'm really disgusted but don't know what to do about it. Sigh.

Kevin McCarthy is on CNBC attacking youtube for taking down videos about "election fraud" as an attack on the American people. "take the politics out of it." right after he's been turning everything from election to COVID to failures of the democratic party and some sort of attack on Hunter Biden and not acknowledging Biden saying only "I am confident every legal vote will be counted by January 20th."

I was beginning to turn to CNBC as less politically filtered news but when they let their guests do that they let McCarthy did, I'm less interested. I miss NBR on PBS which was essentially from CNBC. I really thought their news filter was top notch.

stessier wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:23 am My state was one of the 17 who joined on Texas' side. I'm really disgusted but don't know what to do about it. Sigh.

What is odorous is the conceit that an attorney general can purport to speak for an entire state.

Countdown to Biden inauguration as President:

41 DAYS

In perhaps the lowest moment in jurisprudence since the Scopes Monkey Trial, the universally reviled Ted (Zodiac Killer) Cruz is willing to argue Texas' bogus lawsuit at the Supreme Court. History is watching, Ted.

stessier wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:23 am My state was one of the 17 who joined on Texas' side. I'm really disgusted but don't know what to do about it. Sigh.

Same. I shot off an e-mail to our AG last night (one of only a handful of times I've ever written to an elected official), for all the good that will do.