Jeff V wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:10 pm
Bernie has been docile these past many months, so I imagine his future role is already determined. I hope the older party relics are given less visible appointments so younger folks have a chance to shine.
My wife just berated two of her cousins in Michigan who said they weren't voting because Bernie got screwed out of the nomination (again). She may have browbeaten them into voting, may not have. We're not sure.
What was their specific reason for claiming that? Bernie wasn't within a whiff of the nomination this time.
No idea, I didn't get involved.
I'd bring it up at Thanksgiving but...what Thanksgiving?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
No f’ing way I’m punting Thanksgiving! I love Thanksgiving, and we’re going to carry on the fine tradition of over consumption of food and beverages and watching mediocre NFL football even if it’s just our immediate family.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Jeff V wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:10 pm
Bernie has been docile these past many months, so I imagine his future role is already determined. I hope the older party relics are given less visible appointments so younger folks have a chance to shine.
My wife just berated two of her cousins in Michigan who said they weren't voting because Bernie got screwed out of the nomination (again). She may have browbeaten them into voting, may not have. We're not sure.
My 14-year-old has decided that he's a communist ("You can't criticize what has never been tried, Dad!"), and he's fond of dumping on Biden/Harris as just more corporate capitalism.
I imagine most Bernie holdouts are somewhere similar.
Jeff V wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:10 pm
Bernie has been docile these past many months, so I imagine his future role is already determined. I hope the older party relics are given less visible appointments so younger folks have a chance to shine.
My wife just berated two of her cousins in Michigan who said they weren't voting because Bernie got screwed out of the nomination (again). She may have browbeaten them into voting, may not have. We're not sure.
My 14-year-old has decided that he's a communist ("You can't criticize what has never been tried, Dad!"), and he's fond of dumping on Biden/Harris as just more corporate capitalism.
I imagine most Bernie holdouts are somewhere similar.
Kurth wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:04 pm
No f’ing way I’m punting Thanksgiving! I love Thanksgiving, and we’re going to carry on the fine tradition of over consumption of food and beverages and watching mediocre NFL football even if it’s just our immediate family.
Hey Kurth, I see you are in Portland. I would like your unbiased view of what is going on there. All I can find are extreme characterizations.
Holman wrote:I imagine most Bernie holdouts are somewhere similar.
Yeah I have a friend in his early 20s who is basically "If I can't have Bernie, then I hope the whole country burns." He trashes Biden every chance he gets. It's maddening. I'm not sure how he thinks it's going to be easier to get his progressive utopia after four more years of Trump than it will be after Biden at least moves the needle.
Jaymann wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:36 pm
Has he been reading Drazzil again?
I'm pretty sure he's been reading the Reddit equivalent.
He asked us to get him some classic 19th/20th-century political texts by name (e.g. Marx, Errico Malatesta's Anarchy, Gramsci), presumably because they're talked about in his online circles. He's about to discover how incredibly tepid and boring that kind of writing can be, but I'm happy that he's trying.
Raising smart kids is hard, but I feel sure that he'll grow out of his uncompromising stance before becoming a Stalinist.
Holman wrote:I imagine most Bernie holdouts are somewhere similar.
Yeah I have a friend in his early 20s who is basically "If I can't have Bernie, then I hope the whole country burns." He trashes Biden every chance he gets. It's maddening. I'm not sure how he thinks it's going to be easier to get his progressive utopia after four more years of Trump than it will be after Biden at least moves the needle.
Beau says the effective response is to ask the radical lefties whom they'd rather be fighting for their agenda over the next four years -- trump or Biden? Under which regime might they have a voice and/or make any progress?
Those who've given up on reforming the system from within will answer that it doesn't matter, or that the more monstrous of the two will bring the system down faster. To which one can reply, which one of them might improve the lives of ordinary people, even a little, while you're waiting for the revolution?
If they don't care about the peasants or they think suffering helps their cause, then they're unreachable. If the only acceptable goal is the violent overthrow of capitalism, then trump really is their guy.
One of my nephews says he won't vote for either because they're both pedophiles. IDK how to respond to that. Maybe it's better that he doesn't vote.
Holman wrote:I imagine most Bernie holdouts are somewhere similar.
Yeah I have a friend in his early 20s who is basically "If I can't have Bernie, then I hope the whole country burns." He trashes Biden every chance he gets. It's maddening. I'm not sure how he thinks it's going to be easier to get his progressive utopia after four more years of Trump than it will be after Biden at least moves the needle.
My die-hard socialist best man sang that tune until he had a kid, and thus someone to lose in the uprising.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Kraken wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:16 pm
One of my nephews says he won't vote for either because they're both pedophiles. IDK how to respond to that. Maybe it's better that he doesn't vote.
I’ve heard that one a very disturbing number of times.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
Just saw an strange ad for Ben McAdams (local D congressman in a very tight race against Burgess Owens). It was a bunch of “Republican” man-in-the-street types who were talking about how McAdams espouses GOP values (I.e. “he stands up to Nancy Pelosi in Congress!”), even though he’s a Democrat.
Ended with quick cuts of them saying “I’m voting for Trump and McAdams!” I get that might work in conservative Utah, but it was still very odd.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
The big difference is that Trump is currently president. He's not completely out of tricks yet. Let's hope he doesn't try all of them.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Zaxxon wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:07 pmThis morning we crossed over 25% of the total 2016 vote count already cast in this election. Foregone conclusion that 2020's early voting count will set a new record by a wide margin. It'll be interesting to see the total including election day and how that total compares to 2016.
Yeah looks like we'll coast in around 35-40% early voting levels overall. It also means that the actual election day is incredibly important still.
I would take the over on that estimate, though your point (and Guap's, awesomely) stands.
4 days later, we've crossed past 40%. Will be interesting to see where we wind up.
Saw my first blue white and blue flag lawn sign today. There is a disheartening amount of Trump flags and lawn signs and a bigger ???? of GOP candidate signs sans Trump. Some with MAGA implied. Some without. Don't know what to to make of it.
I'm hoping to learn how to early vote through the clerk and take advantage this Friday if my day off doesn't fall through and I'm not too exhausted. We'll see I'm hoping the stars don't align and force me to vote on Tuesday.
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
The problem with the invalidation strategy is Trump is not the only candidate up for election, not to mention hundreds of propositions. Do you seriously think those hundreds of legitimate winning candidates, who have spent millions of dollars on their campaigns, will allow Trump to piss all that away?
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
The problem with the invalidation strategy is Trump is not the only candidate up for election, not to mention hundreds of propositions. Do you seriously think those hundreds of legitimate winning candidates, who have spent millions of dollars on their campaigns, will allow Trump to piss all that away?
No, by "invalidate the election," I mean only the POTUS result. Unless Biden really blows it out beyond any dispute, trump only needs to get the count in one or two states before the SCOTUS. My imagined Russian ballots will lead to that maneuver.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
The problem with the invalidation strategy is Trump is not the only candidate up for election, not to mention hundreds of propositions. Do you seriously think those hundreds of legitimate winning candidates, who have spent millions of dollars on their campaigns, will allow Trump to piss all that away?
No, by "invalidate the election," I mean only the POTUS result.
But that's my point, how can you invalidate just a portion of a ballot?
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
The problem with the invalidation strategy is Trump is not the only candidate up for election, not to mention hundreds of propositions. Do you seriously think those hundreds of legitimate winning candidates, who have spent millions of dollars on their campaigns, will allow Trump to piss all that away?
No, by "invalidate the election," I mean only the POTUS result.
But that's my point, how can you invalidate just a portion of a ballot?
You don't. It's about undermining confidence in the process. Trump and the Russians revel in American chaos. If "lesser" ballot items are collateral damage, so be it. But I don't think there are people taking up arms for their local comptroller.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm
No reveals by Trump camp. Clinging to QAnonsense conspiracy theories.
They really hoped the Hunter Biden thing would be the new "HER EMAILS!"
Genuine news outlets see it for what it is, and they're debunking it. I guess now we'll see what Trump can gin up on short notice.
I believe, based on absolutely nothing except my own paranoia, that Russians and others will seed fake mail-in ballots far and wide. They are meant to be detected, not counted, to lend credence to trump's repeated fraud accusation and inevitable court challenges. Remember, trump is trying to invalidate the election, not win it.
Saw an article today about Putin saying that the Ukraine/Biden narrative is false. Suggestion of article was he sees the writing on the wall, and is starting to pivot.
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:49 pm
Granted the comptroller militia may be severely undermanned, but Senators and Congressmen will raise armies of lawyers like nobody's business.
To what end, if trump's challenges make a beeline to his shiny new SCOTUS?
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:49 pm
Granted the comptroller militia may be severely undermanned, but Senators and Congressmen will raise armies of lawyers like nobody's business.
To what end, if trump's challenges make a beeline to his shiny new SCOTUS?
So let me get this straight:
Biden wins the election by a landslide. Trump's lawyers (as far as I know, even the current SCOTUS will not consider rage tweets as arguments) argue that because of rampant voter fraud you need to set aside the election and award Trump four more years. I think there is a distinct possibility there would be at least a few lawyers arguing in opposition.
And even in the remote chance the court decides in Trump's favor, what do they do with all the other elections? Again I say, you can't set aside the Trump vote unless you set aside all votes. This is where the armies of lawyers come in.
Jaymann wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:49 pm
Granted the comptroller militia may be severely undermanned, but Senators and Congressmen will raise armies of lawyers like nobody's business.
To what end, if trump's challenges make a beeline to his shiny new SCOTUS?
So let me get this straight:
Biden wins the election by a landslide. Trump's lawyers (as far as I know, even the current SCOTUS will not consider rage tweets as arguments) argue that because of rampant voter fraud you need to set aside the election and award Trump four more years. I think there is a distinct possibility there would be at least a few lawyers arguing in opposition.
And even in the remote chance the court decides in Trump's favor, what do they do with all the other elections? Again I say, you can't set aside the Trump vote unless you set aside all votes. This is where the armies of lawyers come in.
Armies of lawyers can't fight SCOTUS. If fraud is faked by Russians or whomever, and you have those fraudulent ballots to back you up, then the closest swing states (FL, PA) become vulnerable to challenge. They don't have to challenge "all the other elections," just the mail-in ballots in close states. Contenders for any offices in those states other than POTUS are just collateral damage.
If trump loses even the close states by convincing margins, then this won't work.
My original point was that I think fake Russian ballots are going to be the "October surprise" that everyone's waiting for. We just won't find out about it until November. Whether it works or not, that's the plan I'd concoct if I were Vlad the Concoctor.
Then you would have to examine all the mail-in ballots in those states. You could certainly disqualify certifiably fraudulent ballots (as it should be), but this would not change the results of valid ballots.
If you really want to get your blood pressure up, listen to the latest RadioLab about the ways that the election could be thrown into chaos. As others have said, all Trump would need is some "evidence" of voter fraud in one critical state to challenge the results. One thing that could then happen is that the Governor/SoS for that state could send alternative electors. Or Trump could argue that all those ballots (mail-in most likely) should be invalidated. If that winds up in the SC, and it almost certainly will, we're likely fucked. And don't think for a second that Trump/the GOP would have any qualms in disqualifying hundreds of thousands of ballots if it meant holding on to the presidency. Plus, those ballots likely benefited Democratic candidates anyways, so it's a win-win.
