Cops behaving badly

[LawBeefaroni]

Thu is a tough one. Pregnant African American woman shoplifts from a Kroger (there is video evidence), is stopped by the police in her parked car outside in the parking lot. She refuses orders to leave, hits the gas and strikes a police officer standing in front of the car, he fires, killing her.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/takiya-yo ... =103086808

You can find video of the shooting online if you want.

It’s all so senseless, but to me, the officer was justified. She just made a series of very bad choices. She stole, she refused to leave her vehicle when ordered, and she tried to drive off with a police officer in front of her. Maybe the officer made a poor choice to stand in front of her car, but even so, you don’t drive off with a police officer in front of your car. Am I wrong here?

In a vaccuum, at the moment she hit the gas, the shoot was justified. But it's hard to overlook all the poor decisions that led to that point and they weren't all hers (many, but not all). One which was by the officer to take a position in front of the occupied car.

Is that poor training? Bad instincts? Too much aggression? Not sure.

[GreenGoo]

There's plenty of evidence, and I mean a shitton, that cops are more than willing to take liberties with the law and cover for each other when IA gets a whiff of things.

How many corrupt or bad cops does it take to spoil the entire apple cart?

People who have only ever been dealt with unfairly by the cops see the entire thing as rotten to the core. Others have had no or only good experiences with cops don't even believe that abuses are happening.

This is often divided along racial lines. Shocker. Who's right? Neither. But that doesn't mean everything is perfectly fine with the status quo.

[Grifman]

Victim blamer.

I recently watched a video (god, I usually avoid them like the plague) which had multiple camera angles from dashcams and body cams, and a woman just refused to get out. She plowed into a police officer (who was uninjured, but he did bounce off and land hard. Could have gone differently if he had gone under the bumper). It would have been comical if it wasn't so serious. I have no idea what the driver was thinking. All her tires were blown, she was in the middle of traffic, there were 5+ cop cars and a swarm of cops. There is just no way this turns out better than being arrested. So get out and get arrested. It's the best case scenario.

Instead she put many police and public in danger, including her kid in the kid seat in the back, and thousands of dollars of damage. She got out protesting her innocence. It was bizarre. Drugs maybe? Didn't appear to be. Mental handicap? I can't imagine any handicap that impairs cognition enough for this to happen but not to prevent getting a driver's license.

To the cops' credit, while they had their guns trained on her the whole time, no one fired. I thought it was a miracle of restraint. They had boxed her in and had her stopped multiple times only for her to plow her way through again (larger SUV). Lots of clear orders that were ignored.

So I just want to say that I fully understand that not every cop is out there executing people. I always did, and when I need them, I'm calling the cops myself.

In the meantime, they need more regulation and oversight, because holy hell they can't be trusted to use their own judgement too often.

In the case above, pregnant woman ignores cop, kills cop, dies to cop bullet, I'm not going to be outraged. And, quite frankly, I don't want to have to judge the details of every single instance of questionable outcomes. I just don't have the time or energy.

I’m pretty sure I saw the same video. It was crazy, she almost hit a couple of people along the way, not to mention multiple vehicles. It really was one of the craziest chases I have seen. Can’t believe she did that with children in the car.

[GreenGoo]

Is that poor training? Bad instincts? Too much aggression? Not sure.

There are a ton of examples of people trying to stop cars with their hands on the hood of the car. Obviously this is idiotic, but it happens all the time anyway.

In many cases, or even most, I'd chalk it up to bad instincts. I have no idea about this particular case.

[Grifman]

She just made a series of very bad choices. She stole, she refused to leave her vehicle when ordered, and she tried to drive off with a police officer in front of her. Maybe the officer made a poor choice to stand in front of her car, but even so, you don’t drive off with a police officer in front of your car. Am I wrong here?

You're not wrong, but last I checked none of those things are a capital offense that warrant summary execution.

She absolutely should be in a metric shitton of trouble. She shouldn't be dead.

She committed assault with a deadly weapon. Her car was the equivalent of her pointing a gun at them.
IF she had complied when they told her to get out she should still be alive. If she just sat in her car not moving but not getting out she should still be alive.
She choose to hit the cop with her car. It's not summary execution it's self defense.

OR...the cop could have moved a few feet to his right and stood to the side of the car instead of in front of it.

Then no one dies.

Perhaps the officer shouldn’t stood in front of her, I don’t know what police procedure is. But the fact is he WAS in front of her, and she chose to drive into him. That’s on her. As you say, if she doesn’t, “no one dies”.

[Punisher]

Is that poor training? Bad instincts? Too much aggression? Not sure.

There are a ton of examples of people trying to stop cars with their hands on the hood of the car. Obviously this is idiotic, but it happens all the time anyway.

In many cases, or even most, I'd chalk it up to bad instincts. I have no idea about this particular case.

It might even be natural instints. I can't rember the movie but I remember it had the damous line I'm walking here. IIRC, he tried stopping the can by banging on the hood. Only it wasn't a scripted moment. A real cab had accidentally made it onto the street that was closed and didn't know there was a film being filmed. The actor just had a natural reaction. I want to say Dustin Hoffman but could be wrong about that.
My point is that it may be an automatic natural reaction to try to stop a car with your hands.

[GreenGoo]

It was Dustin Hoffman. I think it was Midnight Cowboy, but since I've never seen it, I'm not sure.

I too have banged on the trunk of a car as it backed up at an intersection while I jaywalked. Yes, two bad decisions. I was jaywalking and backing up at an intersection is completely illegal and ticketable.

Still, I'd say I was trying to get the driver's attention and show my displeasure more than physically stopping the car. In any case, I agree it's instinct to put your hands up and try to stop whatever is coming at you, including cars apparently.

[Punisher]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that people getting shot at hold their hands up to block the bullets.
I do know that people attacked by knives will do that.

[Blackhawk]

Watching a few clips...

At the point he fired the gun, he was, on the surface, justified. Attempting to drive through a person is an attack with a deadly weapon, and usually justifies deadly force.

But...

The choices the cops made in getting into that situation were not good ones. The officer making contact (officer #1) was not in the right position (he was right next to her - he should have been just behind the driver's door, close to the vehicle - it gives you a clear view of the driver, they have a poor view of you, and the B pillar (the center door post) provides some hard cover.) It wasn't a mistake that contributed to how it ended, but it shows laxity. The other officer (officer #2, who shot) on the other hand, had no business standing in front of the car. There were a few places he could have been, but that wasn't one of them. He could have been off of her passenger's side rear fender, or in a similar position to the contact officer, but on the passenger's side. If they were concerned about a drive-off, they could have parked their second vehicle directly in front of her, with the second officer behind the vehicle's engine and wheelwell, or parked it at an angle with the second officer behind the A pillar/hinges.

What really stands out though, is in the video below, at the time I have it set to.



The officer who moves in front of the car does not have his weapon out. When does he pull it?

When she starts to turn the wheel, which shows she's getting ready to move the car. He knew that she was getting ready to start driving, and he chose to remain in front of the car and pull a weapon. The correct choice would have been to alert the other officer that she was getting ready to drive, and start heading toward his own vehicle to either block her in or pursue her. Instead, he decided to body-block the car he knew was about to move, and then to defend himself by killing her.

In other words, officer #2 created the situation.

[Blackhawk]

Side note: Vehicle approaches are one of the most dangerous calls cops can go on (along with domestic disputes.) The reason is that they do them so often, over and over, every day, and they're almost always nothing more than writing on a piece of paper and going back to your car. That repetition tends to make people (understandably!) get a little lazy and let procedures slip. And then when something does go wrong, you're not prepared for it.

[Punisher]

Is it possible that his hun was drawn the whole time but just not raised into camera view until she started to move?

[GreenGoo]

Yes, I have WIDE sympathy for cops approaching a car. That's why there are procedures in place. Do things get chaotic or are there situations where procedures can't be followed to a tee? Yes, imo.

Honestly cops have an insanely difficult job if they want to come home to their families every night. Executing people can't be part of it, though.

No comment on the shooting in the video. I don't have much of an opinion on it.

[Grifman]

In other words, officer #2 created the situation.

Whoa, pardner! That’s a might convenient stopping point in the chain of causality there!

Did he create the situation where she chose to shoplift? Did he create the situation where she she refused to leave her car as ordered? Did he create the situation where she chose to drive off with a police officer in front of her car?

Now I’m not saying the officer(s) didn’t contribute in some ways to what happened. But the officer getting in front of her car was only one step in a chain of decisions (mostly hers) that led to this tragedy.

Though I do think he shouldn’t have gotten in front of the car and that was definitely a contributing factor.

[Blackhawk]

In other words, officer #2 created the situation.

Whoa, pardner! That’s a might convenient stopping point in the chain of causality there!

Did he create the situation where she chose to shoplift? Did he create the situation where she she refused to leave her car as ordered? Did he create the situation where she chose to drive off with a police officer in front of her car?

Now I’m not saying the officer(s) didn’t contribute in some ways to what happened. But the officer getting in front of her car was only one step in a chain of decisions (mostly hers) that led to this tragedy.

Though I do think he shouldn’t have gotten in front of the car and that was definitely a contributing factor.

He didn't create the crime, but he did create the circumstances that led to a lethal encounter.

He was aware that civilians, when faced with a sudden realization that they're about to get screwed over for years by a mistake they made, have a tendency to panic, to act irrationally, and to flee (I think if you were able to interview her, you'd find that her actions were fight-or-flight, a near panic-attack level response, not an attempt to hurt the officer.)

He actively chose to create a situation in which he could be placed in mortal danger (by getting in front of a running car with a frightened civilian behind the wheel), then chose to respond to the telegraphed threat (she started to turn the wheel, showing that she was getting ready to move) by intentionally leaving himself in that situation.

Was he responsible for the robbery theft? No. Was he responsible for her putting her foot on the pedal? No. He doesn't hold 100% responsibility. But had he acted correctly (ie - the way he should have been trained), this wouldn't have happened. And he had to have known that - it would have been drilled into his head, repeatedly, during his training. He was the one with the expertise, the training, and the experience. He knew that someone in her situation might act irrationally. In my opinion, he was more responsible for the outcome than she was.

[Grifman]

Blackhawk, I understand what you are saying but I disagree that he was more responsible. As the person who actually committed several crimes in this incident, she was primarily responsible, IMO. None of this would have happened if she had at multiple points along the way, done the right thing. Because of this, she is primarily responsible, the officer only partially as his actions only happened due to her prior actions. That’s the way I see it, anyway.

[Alefroth]

Yeah, that seems justified to me. I saw the bodycam footage and it looks like he only fired one round.
I think that lawyer is an ambulance chaser. Just looking to get a quick buck. I'm sure the city will end up settling because it will be cheaper in the long run
I love how this lady was a "shining beacon" to her kids. Yes, definitely a good rolemodel on how to shoplift.
It's not like she was shoplifting baby formula she was shoplifting alcohol which she shouldn't even be having if pregnant.
Plus she knew she was a thief and tried denying it as an excuse to drive off.
I feel bad for the kids and the unborn baby but no empathy for the mother. As you mentioned she made poor decisions.
Also, I can't believe the attorney is trying to push the idea that she wasn't trying to hit the cop because she was turning the wheel. That cop was only aboyt a foot in front of the car. No matter how tight your turning is you're gonna hit domeone that close to you. She knew what she was doing.

Why does any of that matter? Would it have been unjustified if she was a shining beacon and was shoplifting formula?

[GreenGoo]

If you corner a raccoon in your shed while it's rummaging in your garbage cans, who's fault is it that you get scratched or bit?

That's BH's point here. That woman has exactly zero training on how to handle having guns pointed at her. The officer on the other hand, has been specifically trained for this situation as well as the psychology of the people they have to interact with.

I don't have special knowledge in this, but BH does, and if he says the officer fucked up, then I'm inclined to believe him. My lay person ass doesn't know enough for me to say one way or another. I suppose I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the situation until BH pointed it out. That said, I don't have any clue about the legalities of the situation. Likely the cop is going to get off with a warning, probably not even an official one on his record. We'll see, I guess.

[Blackhawk]

That's a good analogy. She absolutely brought the situation on, but the cops made the mistakes that allowed it to turn deadly when she took actions that should have been seen as likely.

And, bigger picture, the question is going to land on how much responsibility his departments policies and management had, and how much responsibility his trainer had. Mistakes like this are often the result of a series of failures further up.

And again, that's just my opinion. I do have some training and experience that apply, but it is out of date. I wouldn't call it expertise anymore - just an informed opinion.

[McNutt]

I just watched the video and the cop should have gotten out of the way. She was not trying to run him over, just trying to escape.

She might have brought it on herself, but common sense should have come into play here by the officer. This was completely unnecessary.

[Isgrimnur]

I asked the cops on reddit about a police shooting in France. The consensus was that getting on or in front of the car was a bad move.

[GreenGoo]

I asked the cops on reddit about a police shooting in France. The consensus was that getting on or in front of the car was a bad move.

Can't access it without logging into reddit

[Unagi]

I asked the cops on reddit about a police shooting in France. The consensus was that getting on or in front of the car was a bad move.

Can't access it without logging into reddit

Weird, while I also got a pop-up before reading, one of the buttins was "Log In" - but another was "I am over 18", and pressing that (grey) button let me in.

[GreenGoo]

Huh. I thought it said "I am NOT over 18, exit". Hah, I'm getting so effing old man.

edit: Nope, mine says "I am NOT over 18". Only two options. Log in or leave. *shrug*

[Unagi]

wait, what? that is weird. I've never in my life logged in reddit, for what it's worth.

[GreenGoo]

wait, what? that is weird. I've never in my life logged in reddit, for what it's worth.

Very. To clarify, I have a pop up that says Log in or a button that says "I am not over 18". Those are the only two options. I have a script blocker and ad blocker running, and I can white list everything individually, so I'm assuming it has to do with something I haven't greenlit yet.

Not going to worry about it.

[Dogstar]

Seattle police officer hits and kills Indian graduate student while going 74mph in a 25 zone through an intersection.

The investigating officer:

In the video, Auderer is heard laughing, apparently at something his interlocutor says.

"Yeah, just write a check," Auderer says, chuckling. "$11,000. She was 26 anyway, she had limited value."

End Qualified Immunity. Until a portion of settlements start coming out of an officer's pockets, there are limited ways of correcting the attitude and behavior. It's not just the words that get me. It's not just that the trooper didn't follow state law. It's also that the investigating officer, in talking to the police union head, is mischaracterizing the situation by stating that the officer was only going 50 (63 by the time he slowed down and hit her) and that she wasn't thrown 40 feet (actually 138). It makes you wonder how many details get altered along the way when investigating things like this.

[Punisher]

I don't agree that qualified immunity should ne hone. It DOES servre a purpose.
I do think it needs a major overhaul.

[Isgrimnur]

[Dogstar]

I don't agree that qualified immunity should ne hone. It DOES servre a purpose.
I do think it needs a major overhaul.

Overhauled immunity plus private insurance? I keep being told that the insurance market handles risk evaluation extremely well, and that does seem like a free market solution...

[Punisher]

I don't agree that qualified immunity should ne hone. It DOES servre a purpose.
I do think it needs a major overhaul.

Overhauled immunity plus private insurance? I keep being told that the insurance market handles risk evaluation extremely well, and that does seem like a free market solution...

I think that if it's private insurance but included in their contracts, it might work.
If you just drop QI you'll just increase the number of lawsuits and taxpayer cost.
White cop pulls over a black person and that person can say it's a racist stop regardless of reality.
Someone resists arrest and gets hurt during arrest, lawsuit.
I believe that QIs intent was to nip frivolous lawsuits in the bud. We need to make sure that continues.

[GreenGoo]

<snip>

omg, above and beyond.

[EvilHomer3k]

Seattle police officer hits and kills Indian graduate student while going 74mph in a 25 zone through an intersection.

The investigating officer:

In the video, Auderer is heard laughing, apparently at something his interlocutor says.

"Yeah, just write a check," Auderer says, chuckling. "$11,000. She was 26 anyway, she had limited value."

End Qualified Immunity. Until a portion of settlements start coming out of an officer's pockets, there are limited ways of correcting the attitude and behavior. It's not just the words that get me. It's not just that the trooper didn't follow state law. It's also that the investigating officer, in talking to the police union head, is mischaracterizing the situation by stating that the officer was only going 50 (63 by the time he slowed down and hit her) and that she wasn't thrown 40 feet (actually 138). It makes you wonder how many details get altered along the way when investigating things like this.

Hearing people laugh, make jokes, and talk about someone who was just killed by the complete an utter negligence of one of their fellow officers is sickening. I hope they both lose their jobs but I know they won't.

[Smoove_B]

Beyond depressing:

A Black man who spent 16 years in prison after being wrongfully convicted of a violent crime was shot and killed by police in Georgia on Monday.

Leonard Cure, 53, was killed after a sheriff’s deputy pulled him over in south-eastern Georgia’s Camden county early on Monday morning. The Georgia bureau of investigation (GBI) is examining the shooting.

...

The GBI said in a statement that Cure’s vehicle was stopped by the deputy at about 7.30am in Camden county. The statement said the deputy had “initiated a traffic stop”, but the GBI did not give the reason for the stop.

Cure got out of the car “at the deputy’s request”, the GBI said.

“Cure complied with the officer’s commands until learning that he was under arrest,” the statement said.

The GBI’s statement said the deputy shocked Cure with a stun gun “after not complying with the deputy’s requests”. In its statement, the GBI accused Cure of assaulting the deputy, who shocked Cure with a stun gun a second time and struck him with a collapsible baton with which law enforcement officers are often equipped.

“However, Cure still did not comply,” the GBI’s statement alleged. “The deputy pulled out his gun and shot Cure.”

[hepcat]

They’ve released the video of the arrest.. I’m kind of torn on this one. He was pulled over for going 100 mph and then attacks the officer in a pretty brutal fight. The officer did use a taser, but it doesn’t seem to do much to Cure. Not sure if deadly force was required but I’m not sure it wasn’t either after watching the video.

[stimpy]

They’ve released the video of the arrest.. I’m kind of torn on this one. He was pulled over for going 100 mph and then attacks the officer in a pretty brutal fight. The officer did use a taser, but it doesn’t seem to do much to Cure. Not sure if deadly force was required but I’m not sure it wasn’t either after watching the video.

A lone cop on the side of the road on the verge of being pummeled by a much larger man who showed no effect of being bothered after being hit by a taser and baton?
I'm with the cop on this one. There are some instances in life where saying "Please stop" just doesnt work.

[LawBeefaroni]

He probably reacted like he did because of his previous wrongful incarceration. Very sad.

It seemed like a pretty tense stop from the get go, the officer was barking orders right away. I guess when you pull someone over for to arrest them for reckless driving and going 100 that happens but not a fan of the immediately confrontational approach.

It's another case where deadly force was justified at the moment it was used but maybe it didn't have to get to that point.

[GreenGoo]

He probably reacted like he did because of his previous wrongful incarceration. Very sad.

My thoughts as well.

[malchior]

He probably reacted like he did because of his previous wrongful incarceration. Very sad.

It seemed like a pretty tense stop from the get go, the officer was barking orders right away. I guess when you pull someone over for to arrest them for reckless driving and going 100 that happens but not a fan of the immediately confrontational approach.

FWIW like everytime this happens the alive man gets to press his case and no one is speaking for the dead. As far as I have seen they are are making claims that afaik have no independant substantiation. Is there evidence he actually drove 100 other than police say? They don't show video prior to the stop from what I've seen. That's odd if they claim he was driving recklessly.

It's another case where deadly force was justified at the moment it was used but maybe it didn't have to get to that point.

That cop was looking for a fight from the get. Minorities are scared out of their minds by cops and especially cops that are unhinged. That cop was out of control and he pushed that man hard. But that's policing in America.

In any case, when police release video in this manner I just assume it is framed to misinform and justify the same old police response.

[hepcat]

Because I grew up in a small farm community where cops were usually family, friends or neighbors, and they were almost always decent to you (even when gruff), I guess I just don't have that level of distrust that is the result of years of seeing/experiencing abuse. I've lived in Chicago for many years, and I still tend to be more trusting of police than I probably should, given the history of Chicago cops.

[Zarathud]

You’re just happy to see a police officer in your area. And not just the police sensor at the end of the block.