The worst part of war, is that the vast majority of the suffering is inflicted upon people who have no part and no say about it. The suffering and pain is inflicted in a widespread manner. its the only we we humans know how. With the hope that it eventually 'trickles up' and causes the leadership to take action and end the suffering.
So McDonalds closes its locations in Russia. That makes (according to the article) 64 thousand out of work, and who know how much impact to folks that supplied McDonalds. How many of those folks have any influence over the war? How many of them can potentially stop the invasion and recall the troops? The most likely answer is zero.
But its done anyways, in the hope that economic damage and personal suffering on a mass scale like this will change Putins mind, and he will recall the troops. Or, that somebody else in Russia will decide this is too much suffering, and take power away from Putin, in order to end the war.
Sanctions like this, its still war. its not killing with a bullet, but with starvation. Its not blowing up a house with a bomb, but its still forcing somebody into the street due to lack of rent money. The folks being harmed by these sanctions, they are just as innocent as the citizens in Ukraine. The common folk in Russia didn't vote for a war, their madman of a dictator started it on his own accord. But we are hurting those folks, in the hopes that if we do enough damage, maybe the leadership will decide to stop fighting.
War is the worst. The absolutely worst.
And I have no idea what else there is to do, and that makes it even worster.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:53 pm
by Jaymann
Another consideration in corporations shutting down Russian operations is supply chain. It's bad enough in the U.S., I can imagine what a hot mess it is in Russia.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:54 pm
by Blackhawk
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
With the hope that it eventually 'trickles up' and causes the leadership to take action and end the suffering.
Or causes the suffering to take action and end the leadership.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:59 pm
by LawBeefaroni
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
The worst part of war, is that the vast majority of the suffering is inflicted upon people who have no part and no say about it. The suffering and pain is inflicted in a widespread manner. its the only we we humans know how. With the hope that it eventually 'trickles up' and causes the leadership to take action and end the suffering.
So McDonalds closes its locations in Russia. That makes (according to the article) 64 thousand out of work, and who know how much impact to folks that supplied McDonalds. How many of those folks have any influence over the war? How many of them can potentially stop the invasion and recall the troops? The most likely answer is zero.
But its done anyways, in the hope that economic damage and personal suffering on a mass scale like this will change Putins mind, and he will recall the troops. Or, that somebody else in Russia will decide this is too much suffering, and take power away from Putin, in order to end the war.
Sanctions like this, its still war. its not killing with a bullet, but with starvation. Its not blowing up a house with a bomb, but its still forcing somebody into the street due to lack of rent money. The folks being harmed by these sanctions, they are just as innocent as the citizens in Ukraine. The common folk in Russia didn't vote for a war, their madman of a dictator started it on his own accord. But we are hurting those folks, in the hopes that if we do enough damage, maybe the leadership will decide to stop fighting.
War is the worst. The absolutely worst.
And I have no idea what else there is to do, and that makes it even worster.
No one is going to starve because MacDonald's is closed. And they announced they they will continue to pay the workers.
In terms of damage done, I'd say it is worth it for whatever pressure it puts on Russia to end actual killing.
As much as I hate to admit it, moves like this are huge because they cut through the censorship and media control. No Big Macs is no Big Macs, regardless of how it's spun.
More like this, please.
The elder kiddo asked me yesterday about the price of gasoline. I guess some of her teachers were bitching about it in class. I just said, "We'll pay up or walk. Cheap gas means more dead people." Which has always been the case.
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:02 pm
by stessier
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
Isn't the bigger question how many pilots do they have who are familiar with these planes? At some point, if you're throwing rookies at vets, you're going to need a LOT of rookies.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
Isn't the bigger question how many pilots do they have who are familiar with these planes? At some point, if you're throwing rookies at vets, you're going to need a LOT of rookies.
Well, speaking not to new pilots/rookie vs vets.... - but generally speaking - my understanding is that these are exactly the planes they are familiar with as an airforce.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
Isn't the bigger question how many pilots do they have who are familiar with these planes? At some point, if you're throwing rookies at vets, you're going to need a LOT of rookies.
Well, speaking not to new pilots - but generally speaking - my understanding is that these are exactly the planes they are familiar with as an airforce.
Well that's a plus. But presumably all the pilots who are qualified are already flying.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:07 pm
by Unagi
well, then what are they going to train the rookies in.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:07 pm
by stimpy
If Russia has maintained their planes as well as they've maintained their tanks, my money is on Ukraine.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
Isn't the bigger question how many pilots do they have who are familiar with these planes? At some point, if you're throwing rookies at vets, you're going to need a LOT of rookies.
Well, speaking not to new pilots - but generally speaking - my understanding is that these are exactly the planes they are familiar with as an airforce.
Well that's a plus. But presumably all the pilots who are qualified are already flying.
It's likely that the number of qualified pilots does not exactly match their current umber of planes. If they have more pilots than planes, which is usually the case, they can get flying the new ones quickly.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:16 pm
by LawBeefaroni
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm
Is this a lot of planes? Sounds like it? I guess I'm mainly wondering is how many planes would Ukraine have to get in order to contest Russian air superiority? Like is this a road bump for Russia or a major problem for them?
It's a lot. They had 37 going into the war. 8 were used for training but I assume they could fly combat.
Russia could vastly outnumber them but the more aircraft you put in hostile airspace, the more will get shot down. Ukraine still has a lot of SAMs with more incoming.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:22 pm
by LawBeefaroni
So it sounds like Poland is giving them to the US? It gets around some of their concerns of yesterday:
One of the primary concerns for Poland, Bulgaria, and Slovakia is that they don't draw retaliation from the Kremlin or draw NATO into a direct military conflict with Russia. So the MiGs couldn't be stored on NATO soil, and "it isn't clear if Ukraine would be able to safely house and service them in the long run, given the warfare on its territory," The Associated Press reports. "Another question to resolve would be how to deliver the planes to Ukraine," because Polish pilots can't fly them into the country and having Ukrainian pilots come pick them up would pose similar risks.
"There is also an F-16 production backlog, which means the countries that potentially give away their MiGs and Su fighters to Ukraine would need to wait for the backfill for some time," AP reports. To make things even "more complicated," the Times adds, "many of those fighters are promised to Taiwan — where the United States has greater strategic interests."
Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:27 pm
I think our money is better spent on direct contributions to aid groups. Most AirBnB hosts are probably on the up and up, but there's a definite possibility of scammers, plus you're filtering your contribution through an individual's real-estate investment rather than taking advantage of the economies of scale that aid groups enjoy.
I'll nitpick a little there...but I definitely agree about the economies of scale part.
If anything, the airbnb deal is the most direct way to contribute, and the very nature of contributing to an NGO/aid group means your donation is getting 'filtered' through that org, and hopefully directly to the people.
You could argue that there are more urgent needs than money, though, and I think that's where giving to an aid group makes sense (money which in turn is used to buy....blankets, medical suipplies, food, etc). Do both!
As for the scamming, I think I addressed that pretty well above. Pretty easy ways to cut that risk wayyy down if not eliminate completely.
I think we're all trying to figure out how to best do what we can from our distance as Americans/Canadians/Whatevers.
My issue with AirBnB is that you're still going through a profit-driven system. (If your chosen AirBnB isn't going to make beds available to destitute refugees unless you pay up, are they really worthy of your dollars?) The best thing that could happen would be for AirBnB itself to declare that all beds made available to refugees will be reimbursed (regardless of prior funding), and then invite wealthy Westerners to pay into the fund for that. And then--even if Westerners don't cover the costs--pay up anyway.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:51 pm
by Pyperkub
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
Sanctions like this, its still war. its not killing with a bullet, but with starvation. Its not blowing up a house with a bomb, but its still forcing somebody into the street due to lack of rent money. The folks being harmed by these sanctions, they are just as innocent as the citizens in Ukraine. The common folk in Russia didn't vote for a war, their madman of a dictator started it on his own accord. But we are hurting those folks, in the hopes that if we do enough damage, maybe the leadership will decide to stop fighting.
War is the worst. The absolutely worst.
And I have no idea what else there is to do, and that makes it even worster.
Forcing someone into the street because their accounts are locked and they can't pay their rent is not War, it's an inhumane asshole of a landlord. We have become so used to our comforts that we really have some really bad ideas of what War is, and what it really, really isn't.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:16 pm
by gilraen
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
The folks being harmed by these sanctions, they are just as innocent as the citizens in Ukraine. The common folk in Russia didn't vote for a war, their madman of a dictator started it on his own accord. But we are hurting those folks, in the hopes that if we do enough damage, maybe the leadership will decide to stop fighting.
Maybe they'll stop voting for the dictator, over and over. They didn't vote for a war, they just keep voting for Putin. Yeah, the voting in Russia is mostly a sham, but if people even just stay home instead of just pulling the lever for Putin again and again - it might eventually send a message (and yes, that's literally what I heard from my Russian friends, they'll go to the polls and vote for Putin not because they particularly like him but because they don't feel like voting for a president affects them in everyday life, and "who else is there anyway").
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:22 pm
by Unagi
Holman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:37 pm
My issue with AirBnB is that you're still going through a profit-driven system. (If your chosen AirBnB isn't going to make beds available to destitute refugees unless you pay up, are they really worthy of your dollars?) The best thing that could happen would be for AirBnB itself to declare that all beds made available to refugees will be reimbursed (regardless of prior funding), and then invite wealthy Westerners to pay into the fund for that. And then--even if Westerners don't cover the costs--pay up anyway.
I don't think that's the general idea around the AirBnB 'donations'.
First, I agree that it may still be better to donate to an organization on the ground that is providing blankets/aid/etc directly to victims right now....
However, just to clarify - my understanding of the Airbnb idea is just to get some $$ into Olga's bank account. If Mrs.CP rents 10 days for $450, then Olga is paid that money (minus the AirBnB fee she's obligated to pay). If Olga is a resident of Ukraine, you have just helped a Ukrainian. The hope is that Olga is a legit target of our sympathy. Beyond that, there is no expectation that Olga even still has a bed to rent. It's one person helping one person. If the connection is legit.
Another problem with it though, IMO, is that these people may not have access to their accounts/banks/Airbnb/ whatnot... and may also not survive this... so you may be sending it where it may not be used for quite some time.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:36 pm
by Carpet_pissr
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:22 pm
the Airbnb idea is just to get some $$ into Olga's bank account. If Mrs.CP rents 10 days for $450, then Olga is paid that money (minus the AirBnB fee she's obligated to pay). If Olga is a resident of Ukraine, you have just helped a Ukrainian.
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
With the hope that it eventually 'trickles up' and causes the leadership to take action and end the suffering.
Or causes the suffering to take action and end the leadership.
This and to keep trade from making easier lives of the people who can effect change.
It sucks but what else do you do?
"Let them eat Whoppers."
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:52 pm
by Alefroth
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:22 pm
So it sounds like Poland is giving them to the US? It gets around some of their concerns of yesterday:
One of the primary concerns for Poland, Bulgaria, and Slovakia is that they don't draw retaliation from the Kremlin or draw NATO into a direct military conflict with Russia. So the MiGs couldn't be stored on NATO soil, and "it isn't clear if Ukraine would be able to safely house and service them in the long run, given the warfare on its territory," The Associated Press reports. "Another question to resolve would be how to deliver the planes to Ukraine," because Polish pilots can't fly them into the country and having Ukrainian pilots come pick them up would pose similar risks.
"There is also an F-16 production backlog, which means the countries that potentially give away their MiGs and Su fighters to Ukraine would need to wait for the backfill for some time," AP reports. To make things even "more complicated," the Times adds, "many of those fighters are promised to Taiwan — where the United States has greater strategic interests."
So they are going to be at a U.S. air base in Germany and at the disposal of the United States. I don't see how that solves the issue.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:55 pm
by Isgrimnur
Poland gives them to us, we give them to the Ukrainians, we give F-16s to the Poles.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:56 pm
by raydude
Jaymon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:47 pm
Sanctions like this, its still war. its not killing with a bullet, but with starvation. Its not blowing up a house with a bomb, but its still forcing somebody into the street due to lack of rent money. The folks being harmed by these sanctions, they are just as innocent as the citizens in Ukraine. The common folk in Russia didn't vote for a war, their madman of a dictator started it on his own accord. But we are hurting those folks, in the hopes that if we do enough damage, maybe the leadership will decide to stop fighting.
Even the secret police forces have to eat, just like everyone else. And unlike North Korea, which can afford to feed its military while starving everyone else, Russia cannot afford to do so. Or, at the very least, Russia will be forced to choose who gets special treatment. And if the police gets to eat, while an armed military force does not? Well....
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:22 pm
So it sounds like Poland is giving them to the US? It gets around some of their concerns of yesterday:
One of the primary concerns for Poland, Bulgaria, and Slovakia is that they don't draw retaliation from the Kremlin or draw NATO into a direct military conflict with Russia. So the MiGs couldn't be stored on NATO soil, and "it isn't clear if Ukraine would be able to safely house and service them in the long run, given the warfare on its territory," The Associated Press reports. "Another question to resolve would be how to deliver the planes to Ukraine," because Polish pilots can't fly them into the country and having Ukrainian pilots come pick them up would pose similar risks.
"There is also an F-16 production backlog, which means the countries that potentially give away their MiGs and Su fighters to Ukraine would need to wait for the backfill for some time," AP reports. To make things even "more complicated," the Times adds, "many of those fighters are promised to Taiwan — where the United States has greater strategic interests."
So they are going to be at a U.S. air base in Germany and at the disposal of the United States. I don't see how that solves the issue.
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:51 pm
Bitching about the price of gas is an absolute LUXURY. We aren't cowering in bomb shelters fearful our kids are going to be killed any minute.
I really want to smack anyone whining about gas prices.
I can be unhappy about gas prices and still recognize that increased gas price is a very small price to pay hamper Russian Imperialist expansion that is costing innocents prices I don't want to imagine on the other side of the world.
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch
He said to me, "you must not ask for so much"
And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door
She cried to me, "hey, why not ask for more?"
Oh, like a bird on the wire
Like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:35 pm
by Blackhawk
LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:26 pm
I can be unhappy about gas prices and still recognize that increased gas price is a very small price to pay hamper Russian Imperialist expansion
+1. Given the amount of driving that is not reducible for us, and how tight money is for us, I can bitch. That doesn't mean I think we should ease up on Russia just to make it easier.
I dislike the idea that nobody can complain about anything else, just because someone has it worse. After all, somewhere, somebody is probably on fire or being tortured to death. That doesn't mean that everyone who isn't on fire needs to shut up about their own problems.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:40 pm
by Defiant
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:45 pm
by Daehawk
No one is responsible for anything bad but Dems according to the GOP. And all good things are their doing even if they did say the opposite about said thing when Dems did it first.
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:22 pm
the Airbnb idea is just to get some $$ into Olga's bank account. If Mrs.CP rents 10 days for $450, then Olga is paid that money (minus the AirBnB fee she's obligated to pay). If Olga is a resident of Ukraine, you have just helped a Ukrainian.
Yes, this.
Also, FWIW, Airbnb is not charging fees for Ukraine bookings rn.
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:22 pm
the Airbnb idea is just to get some $$ into Olga's bank account. If Mrs.CP rents 10 days for $450, then Olga is paid that money (minus the AirBnB fee she's obligated to pay). If Olga is a resident of Ukraine, you have just helped a Ukrainian.
Yes, this.
Also, FWIW, Airbnb is not charging fees for Ukraine bookings rn.
I'm still confused about how Airbnb helps refugees when refugees are very unlikely to be Airbnb hosts. Don't refugees benefit more directly from donations to organizations helping refugees?
Forgive me if I'm suspicious of Capital here.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:06 pm
by Carpet_pissr
Has nothing to do with refugees. Not sure how that got mixed in. Money sent to Ukrainians via Airbnb.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:07 pm
by Holman
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:06 pm
Has nothing to do with refugees. Not sure how that got mixed in. Money sent to Ukrainians via Airbnb.
If they have an Airbnb and they're not helping refugees, why are they worth your donation when other orgs are directly helping refugees?
It's not like your Airbnb money is buying Javelins or NLAWs.
Re: Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:35 pm
by Defiant
It's sending money to Ukrainians (either those still in Ukraine, or possibly those who are now refugees).
That said, I would think a more traditional charity would be able to direct it as aid to those who need it the most (eg, those who have lost everything or were wounded), rather than just one random Ukrainian.
