Octopus Overlords

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:39 am

“I asked him, ‘Why didn’t you shoot? Why didn’t you engage?’ And that’s when he told me about the background,” he said. “According to the officers, they didn’t engage back because in the background there was kids playing and they were scared of hitting the kids.”

That's at least an understandable reason to hesitate, as opposed to [ralph]"I'm in danger!" [/ralph] The training to not take risky shots when you might hit bystanders is intense, and filled with nightmarish scenarios that keep you awake at night, scenarios of civil suits that destroy your family, scenarios of years in prison for reckless homicide of a child. Taking out a hostage to take down the hostage taker is the kind of split-second decision that goes beyond what the average cop is ever expected to face, and it definitely opens the door to a few seconds of, "Oh, god, what do I do?"

At the time, the shooter hadn't gone into the school. With hindsight, knowing what happened, it's easy to blame this cop, but I don't think that's reasonable. The cops who refused to act once they knew what the situation was, on the other hand...

Why were there kids playing in the background after the shooter started shooting outside the school? None of this makes sense. Is there surveillance or bodycam to back any of this up?

It is always best practice to know your backstop but when you have a guy armed with a rifle shooting outside a school and looking to make entry to the school full of kids, you do what you can to get a safe angle and you shoot him. At the very least you take low percentage safe shots to get his attention.

At the time, was he trying to make entry? The claim is just that he was shooting at various buildings when this occurred. And if not, and you're trying to weigh whether shooting a kid or two is worth it to stop the guy, and you only have three or four seconds to decide - I can understand not taking the shot. FBI HRT, sure. Small town cop? Completely believable.

But yeah, I agree about needing something to back up the story.

In some ways, I don’t much care if it’s true or not. It’s certainly possible. And it would be believable.

And all it does is make me want to scream about how the backdrop will be 10x worse for a teacher. The training will be 100x less for the teacher. The time available to act will be 10x shorter for the teacher. The choice will be 10,000x harder for the teacher.

And if the cop can’t do it, don’t expect the teacher to.

I know I’m not saying anything new to this crowd.

I just feel like it all keeps pointing at the availability of guns being the problem. And that is locked in tight with the 2A crowd as being so off the table it’s annoying.


So the police talk about the cop not taking the shot for reason X, and I just hear “we can’t fix this, unless we get rid of the guns”

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:28 am At the time, was he trying to make entry? The claim is just that he was shooting at various buildings when this occurred. And if not, and you're trying to weigh whether shooting a kid or two is worth it to stop the guy, and you only have three or four seconds to decide - I can understand not taking the shot. FBI HRT, sure. Small town cop? Completely believable.

But yeah, I agree about needing something to back up the story.

He was outside shooting and then went in. Assuming they kept visual contact with the suspect who was shooting at buildings outside of a school (which I guess may be a bad assumption based on everything else), they would have seen him trying to make entry at some point.

Except that's not what the claim from the cops in the article is (and this all assumes that the claim is true - which is a huge assume.)

The chance passed “really quick” he said, perhaps in a matter of seconds.

That isn't keeping visual contact with someone then watching them make entry at some point. That is someone being visible between cars or buildings for a few seconds before disappearing again.

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:37 am In some ways, I don’t much care if it’s true or not. It’s certainly possible. And it would be believable.

And all it does is make me want to scream about how the backdrop will be 10x worse for a teacher. The training will be 100x less for the teacher. The time available to act will be 10x shorter for the teacher. The choice will be 10,000x harder for the teacher.

And if the cop can’t do it, don’t expect the teacher to.

I know I’m not saying anything new to this crowd.

I just feel like it all keeps pointing at the availability of guns being the problem. And that is locked in tight with the 2A crowd as being so off the table it’s annoying.


So the police talk about the cop not taking the shot for reason X, and I just hear “we can’t fix this, unless we get rid of the guns”

Teachers would very ineffective for the most part. They would hesitate to avoid harming students. They will be too quick on the trigger to try to protect students. There would be accidents and it would split their attention. Carrying a gun isn't an on/off switch that is just suddenly there if you need it. It's a constant responsibility. Sure there may be a few teachers who would both welcome it and would be effective. They would be rare and certainly not enough to be a solution.

One of my friends is a retired cop and he's looking for a part time job to keep him busy. He's turned down a ton of jobs because they are armed security or protection work. He says the last thing he wants in retirement is to be carrying a gun on the job because it's a subtle but noticable level of constant stress.

Why do we want to force this responsibility on teachers? Because Joe Sixpack carries a Glock and thinks it would be cool to be an armed teacher. The problem, of course, is that he's not a teacher.

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 pm Except that's not what the claim from the cops in the article is (and this all assumes that the claim is true - which is a huge assume.)

The chance passed “really quick” he said, perhaps in a matter of seconds.

That isn't keeping visual contact with someone then watching them make entry at some point. That is someone being visible between cars or buildings for a few seconds before disappearing again.

So they say. This wasn't a dense urban environment and I have to question why they weren't able to maintain visual. If you look at the reported timing, there was about a minute when he was shooting at the school while walking along one wall along the road as he approached the back door. There were several trees and parked cars and the possibility that something got in the way but it doesn't sound like there was any effort to stay on him. But it is certainly possible I guess.

The whole story continues to stink and is seems like every few days they throw another morsel out to add to the confusion.

Lawbeefaroni wrote:Why do we want to force this responsibility on teachers? Because Joe Sixpack carries a Glock and thinks it would be cool to be an armed teacher. The problem, of course, is that he's not a teacher.

Bingo. I think it's yet another symptom of these people's inability to see things from anything other than their own perspective. They like guns, they can shoot guns, so they can't comprehend how someone would not want to shoot a gun. They would cheat to steal an election, so they can't comprehend how the Dems didn't cheat to steal an election. Almost the entire GOP platform is based on being completely unable to see the world from a perspective outside of their own skulls.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:16 pm
So they say.

[snip]

The whole story continues to stink and is seems like every few days they throw another morsel out to add to the confusion.

I agree with that. I was discussing the claim and the linked article, not it's veracity.

FWIW, this would have been roughly the location he was walking - in the parking lot, somewhere along the building behind the cars and among the trees, and into the door that's right in front there. It was ~11:30, so there were unlikely to be busses (unless they were parked - it looks like we're looking across a drop-off lane.) It's also possible that there were large vans in the handicapped parking that could have limited sight lines. [/edit - nope, aerial photos show cars in the lot comparable to what's in that image.] Although for the claim of 'children playing in the background', the shooter would have had to be at the far end.

But yeah, while it's plausible, there really does need to be something more to back it up. It really doesn't seem likely that he could have made his way that distance without opening himself up at least a few times, not unless he was moving really, really low behind the cars. The space between the handicapped spaces and the door is particular exposed, and provides and excellent backstop.

I believe at this point they are throwing out these morsels with some intention to keep moving the focus away from individuals taking blows at any particular moment. There are a lot of officers taking hits for team unaccountability.

YellowKing wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:38 pm

Lawbeefaroni wrote:Why do we want to force this responsibility on teachers? Because Joe Sixpack carries a Glock and thinks it would be cool to be an armed teacher. The problem, of course, is that he's not a teacher.

Bingo. I think it's yet another symptom of these people's inability to see things from anything other than their own perspective. They like guns, they can shoot guns, so they can't comprehend how someone would not want to shoot a gun. They would cheat to steal an election, so they can't comprehend how the Dems didn't cheat to steal an election. Almost the entire GOP platform is based on being completely unable to see the world from a perspective outside of their own skulls.

Yep. I have seen this quite a bit.
I think I've recounted here the story of me and my boss in the lobby of a conference for petroleum industry professionals (like Director level up), and I left my laptop on one of our little desks for about 3m while I went to the VERY close bathroom. I came back to him fuming bc someone could have come by, gone into my laptop, found our CRM app, opened it, and copied our list of clients.

He literally said to me "just think, what would YOU do if you passed by a competitor's open laptop like that??" I actually did push back and say "I would just walk by and not even consider rummaging through someone else's personal stuff?" but there was no convincing him. I guess HE would have done that, so any other answer didn't really matter.

I should also state that this same boss treated me exceedingly well, and in every other way showed ethical and moral behavior toward me and others, but that one instance really stuck out to me. He was also pretty paranoid, so it could have been that. Still not convinced that given an opportunity like that, he would have literally gone through someone else's laptop.

Stupidity in Open Carry Laws...

Oklahoma:

n incident in Broken Arrow a week ago raised fresh questions about how witnesses and law enforcement should respond when people walk around in public armed with assault-style rifles.

A man in a tactical vest with a semi-automatic rifle and holstered pistol prompted Broken Arrow Justice Center employees to lock their doors June 13, according to a news release.

AT&T store employees who then saw the man proceeded to “run out the back of the store,” and multiple 911 calls came from the parking lot of a Target store that he was walking toward, Broken Arrow police said.

Due to Oklahoma’s constitutional carry laws, police determined that at each location the man “was not breaking the law” with the rifle and vest...

...no laws were broken with regard to his carrying the semi-automatic rifle. He was arrested, however, after he was found to have a recently-issued unrelated warrant and to be in possession of an over .45-caliber firearm and brass knuckles, both of which are illegal in Oklahoma.

Colorado:

On Halloween morning, Naomi Bettis called 911 to report a man with a long black rifle outside her home. The dispatcher asked her to describe what she saw.

“I couldn’t tell if it was real or not, it being Halloween day, you know,” Bettis recalled, her voice quavering. “But that’s what I told her, and all of a sudden she started saying something about— I don’t remember what they call it— open arms … and she said, you know, we have that law here. And it just kind of blew me away, like she didn’t believe me or something.”

In Colorado, as in a majority of states, openly carrying a firearm in public isn’t against the law. So Bettis hung up — only to call back again after the man with the gun opened fire on a bicyclist outside her door.

Witnesses to the shooting told reporters that the 33-year-old suspect calmly walked down the street with a military-style rifle, shooting and killing two more people, apparently at random, before police gunned him down in a shootout.

Uvalde WTF level +10

Shocking testimony from the Texas DPS director on Tuesday has revealed even more insight into the “abject failure” of response to the Uvalde shooting that occurred on May 24.

Texas Department of Public Safety Director Col. Steven McCraw revealed that the husband of slain elementary teacher Eva Mireles tried to save her but was barred from doing so.

Ruben Ruiz is a police officer for the school district and was on the scene after the gunman entered the school and opened fire.

McCraw said Mireles called Ruiz and told him that “she had been shot and was dying.”

“And what happened to him, is he tried to move forward into the hallway,” McCraw said. “He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene.”

McCraw didn’t say who specifically detained Ruiz.

It appears that there were two cops armed with patrol rifles and one with a ballistic shield in the hallway within 19 minutes. They retreated because they were "outgunned.". That's in addition to the cops who were in the school within 3 minutes.

Police officers with rifles and at least one ballistic shield were in a hallway at Robb Elementary School around 19 minutes after a gunman entered classrooms there, according to reports from Texas news organizations Monday.

The Austin American-Statesman said the timeline was based on documents it reviewed following the May 24 attack in Uvalde that killed 19 children and two teachers.

...

It was around 80 minutes from when the gunman entered the school around 11:33 a.m. and when police entered the classroom around 12:50 p.m. and killed him, according to official accounts.

....

According to the Statesman, a reconstructed timeline shows officers were inside the school three minutes after the gunman entered.

Lot of bleeding out and dying can happen in one hour.

Another detail came out in the briefing today. Waiting for the janitors keys? Unnecessary because the doors were never locked. That walking talking pile of shit Arredondo lied about trying the keys one by one.

malchior wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:17 pm Another detail came out in the briefing today. Waiting for the janitors keys? Unnecessary because the doors were never locked. That walking talking pile of shit Arredondo lied about trying the keys one by one.

It seemed suspect anyway. They have shotguns and breaching tools. Either would make short work if the door even if it were locked. Bit of course it wasn't.


Here's the latest assessment:

"There is compelling evidence that the law enforcement response to the attack at Robb Elementary was an abject failure and antithetical to everything we've learned over the last two decades since the Columbine massacre," Col. Steven McCraw told the Texas Senate Special Committee to Protect All Texans.

"Three minutes after the subject entered the West building, there was a sufficient number of armed officers wearing body armor to isolate, distract and neutralize the subject," he continued. "The only thing stopping the hallway of dedicated officers from entering rooms 111 and 112 was the on-scene commander, who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children."

It does seem like they are going to hang this on him. He might even get a suspension for this...

Day+1 he is now suspended.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytimes/stat ... 7864571906

Why are the cops not crying to ban AR-15 and their ilk if they're this afraid of tackling a guy with one?

WYBaugh wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:17 pm Why are the cops not crying to ban AR-15 and their ilk if they're this afraid of tackling a guy with one?

Because they had several too.

I’m at the kids market at the City Fair tonight. There’s a booth selling inflatable assault rifles, so I’ve seen at least a dozen toddlers walking around with inflatable AR15s slung over their shoulders.

It’s fucking gross.

Well, just 2 suburbs over there has been a shooting at the 4th of July Parade. North suburb of Chicago. This is in Highland Park, IL. Very affluent town.

Details are still not clear, they are not even sure if it's still an active shooter. Our next-door neighbor has her kids in that town and her grandchildren were in the parade.
I know a good number of people that live in that town.
Unbelievable. This is a pretty loving community. Peaceful place. wtf. They say many dead.

Unagi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:04 pm Well, just 2 suburbs over there has been a shooting at the 4th of July Parade. North suburb of Chicago. This is in Highland Park, IL. Very affluent town.

Details are still not clear, they are not even sure if it's still an active shooter. Our next-door neighbor has her kids in that town and her grandchildren were in the parade.
I know a good number of people that live in that town.
Unbelievable. This is a pretty loving community. Peaceful place. wtf. They say many dead.

Nothing expresses our American spirit more than a shooting spree.

16 people were taken to area hospitals.
5 dead.

Still Active Shooter/Suspect at large...

And Highland Park isn't even included in the City of Chicago total:

As of 7:00a July 4: 10 killed, 48 wounded

Friday 7/1
3:00p 100 E 73rd, Grand Crossing, M/30
3:05p 2500 S Kolin, Little Village, F/17
4:20p 5900 S Prairie, Washington Park, M/46
5:00p 4300 W Van Buren, Garfield Park, M/29
5:45p 6500 S Wolcott, Englewood, M/26
7:55p 4800 S Winchester, New City, F/20
9:05p 3800 W Monroe, Garfield Park, F/20
9:05p 3800 W Monroe, Garfield Park, M/25
9:05p 3800 W Monroe, Garfield Park, F/36
9:05p 3800 W Monroe, Garfield Park, M/41
9:05p 700 E 132nd, Riverdale, M/30
10:05p 800 W Eastwood, Uptown, M/26
10:50p 2200 S Wentworth, Armour Square, F/24
10:50p 2200 S Wentworth, Armour Square, M/38
10:50p 2200 S Wentworth, Armour Square, F/42
Saturday 7/2
12:20a 9000 S Escanaba, South Chicago, M/30
2:10a 1600 S Blue Island, Lower West Side, M/24
3:50a 4300 W Madison, Garfield Park, M/27
6:15a 5800 W Grand, Belmont Cragin, F/22
6:15a 5800 W Grand, Belmont Cragin, M/25
10:00a 1500 S Harding, North Lawndale, M/90
3:40p 600 E 47th, Grand Boulevard, M/27
4:00p 2100 E 71st, South Shore, M/26
10:15p 8700 S Burley, South Chicago, M/20
11:30p 10 N LeClaire, Austin, M/33
11:30p 10 N LeClaire, Austin, F/25
Sunday 7/3
12:45a 3700 S Langley, Oakland, F/17
12:45a 3700 S Langley, Oakland, F/42
2:15a 5100 S Calumet, Washington Park, F/32
2:15a 5100 S Calumet, Washington Park, M/35
Thunderdome Tryouts in Bartertown Overnight
2:45a 200 S Maplewood, Near West Side, M/27
2:45a 200 S Maplewood, Near West Side, M/28
3:00a 3800 S Kedzie, Brighton Park, M/35
3:20a 10300 S Cottage Grove, Roseland, M/45
3:30a 2300 S Archer, Armour Square, M/18
5:30a 9300 S Rhodes, Roseland, M/38
5:30a 7000 S Harper, South Shore, M/24
5:30a 7000 S Harper, South Shore, F/24
5:30a 7000 S Harper, South Shore, F/30
10:00a 700 N Springfield, Humboldt Park, M/38
12:50p 6500 S Kedzie, Chicago Lawn, M/?
6:15p 7200 S Indiana, Grand Crossing, M/34
9:00p 8100 S Cottage Grove, Chatham, M/20
9:05p 6500 S Marshfield, Englewood, M/30
9:50p 4200 S Grenshaw, North Lawndale, M/17
10:40p 600 W Englewood, Englewood, M/10
11:50p 400 W Evergreen, Near North Side, F/28
Independence Day
12:15a 6500 S King, Grand Crossing, M/17
12:15a 6500 S King, Grand Crossing, M/19
12:15a 6500 S King, Grand Crossing, M/19
12:15a 6500 S King, Grand Crossing, M/25
12:15a 6500 S King, Grand Crossing, M/30
12:40a 2400 E 72nd, South Shore, M/25
1:05a 5600 S Marshfield, Englewood, M/35
1:30a 4600 S Indiana, Grand Boulevard, M/34
1:30a 5700 S Lake Shore, Hyde Park, M/40
1:50a 400 E Erie, Near North Side, M/39
2:40a 1800 N Sawyer, Humboldt Park, M/40

31 injured.
6 dead.

Shooter is 18-20yo white male still at large...

Witnesses report it was a single spray of bullets all in rapid-fire, and then it stopped. Came from a rooftop.

They have not yet described the "rifle" that has been recovered (which will likely lead directly to the suspct).

We have 31 injured in our system between two hospitals (publicly reported). Guessing there will more injured when the finally tally is done, many with less severe injuries are still hiding or are taking themselves to hospitals.

SWAT is searching door to door. This is going to be another AR15 pattern rifle.

malchior wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:07 pm

Unagi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:04 pm Well, just 2 suburbs over there has been a shooting at the 4th of July Parade. North suburb of Chicago. This is in Highland Park, IL. Very affluent town.

Details are still not clear, they are not even sure if it's still an active shooter. Our next-door neighbor has her kids in that town and her grandchildren were in the parade.
I know a good number of people that live in that town.
Unbelievable. This is a pretty loving community. Peaceful place. wtf. They say many dead.

Nothing expresses our American spirit more than a shooting spree.

How is MTG and the ammosexuals going to explain this away?

Oh. Super easy : ‘This is a mental health issue.’

I’m so tired of that. It’s a gun and bullet issue.

(as well as a mental health issue)

WYBaugh wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:26 pm

malchior wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:07 pm

Unagi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:04 pm Well, just 2 suburbs over there has been a shooting at the 4th of July Parade. North suburb of Chicago. This is in Highland Park, IL. Very affluent town.

Details are still not clear, they are not even sure if it's still an active shooter. Our next-door neighbor has her kids in that town and her grandchildren were in the parade.
I know a good number of people that live in that town.
Unbelievable. This is a pretty loving community. Peaceful place. wtf. They say many dead.

Nothing expresses our American spirit more than a shooting spree.

How is MTG and the ammosexuals going to explain this away?

Easy:

"If more people at the parade had been armed, someone could have stopped this disturbed individual before he was able to kill so many others.

We send our sincere thoughts and prayers to the victims."

Alternately:

The problem is obviously that there were too many doors on the buildings, which allowed the shooter to access the roof.

When are we going to to get serious about removing doors from Main Street businesses so they aren't such soft targets?!"

Unagi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:03 pm Shooter is 18-20yo white male still at large...

They also say black hair, slim build...

That narrow age range makes me suspect they may have an idea who it is.

The shooter got access to the roof due to an unsecured ladder. Guess we have another problem to address since the guns are sacred.

Too many ladders! Nothing more American than a mass shooting. Seriously I just want to leave.

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:25 pm

They recovered a weapon so we'll find out but I'm basing it on witness accounts.

I hope all of the Chicago area OO’ers are safe.

Something happening today is sad and all too predictable.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:16 pm We have 31 injured in our system between two hospitals (publicly reported). Guessing there will more injured when the finally tally is done, many with less severe injuries are still hiding or are taking themselves to hospitals.

19 of ~26 admitted to Highland Park Hospital were treated and released. That's a bit of good news.

Two pediatric transfers to Evanston and U of C (life flight to U of C).

POI being sought.

A person of interest has been identified in Monday’s deadly mass shooting at a Fourth of July parade outside Chicago, authorities said.

Officials ID’d the man as 22-year-old Robert “Bobby” E. Crimo III — who they said they believe is armed and dangerous.

Looks like they got him. HPPD about to announce.