[WW-Monty Python]Remus' first game - END ENGLISH WIN

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:13 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:If the goal were to make a safe kill, it would make more sense to kill Dennis than to kill Robin. The French may still waste a kill on Robin, but are unlikely to take out Dennis.

Point of interest: Right now I'm the only person that you can trust. In my mind, that makes this peasant actually useful, as you know that despite my constant whining about "the man" I am actually on the side of the English.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:21 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:If the goal were to make a safe kill, it would make more sense to kill Dennis than to kill Robin. The French may still waste a kill on Robin, but are unlikely to take out Dennis.
Point of interest: Right now I'm the only person that you can trust. In my mind, that makes this peasant actually useful, as you know that despite my constant whining about "the man" I am actually on the side of the English.

Yea, I'm not sure I see the reasoning. Sure we could take out an "important" Englishman but we just get closer to French victory by killing a known Englishman.

Grund and ezmate have us on a trend to repress and lynch all the English....

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:25 pm

I'm a bit suspicious of Grund, too. The French seems to come just a bit too facilement for my tastes.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:16 pm

Lassr wrote:
ezmate wrote:What do people think of killing Robin off next?

Every turn that he lives is another night that he might run off (causing us to lose 2 good guys in one night). Is it more likely that the French will kill him before he runs away? I don't think so, but if it is, then maybe we let him live.

Personally, I think we should kill him - it's another safe kill (no important people die, it doesn't have a chance of forcing the Seer to reveal himself, it doesn't risk killing Lancelot or Tim). On the flip side, it doesn't give us a chance at killing a frenchy, but our odds are still pretty bad right now - we're just as likely to kill (or reveal the identity of) one of the 3 powered people as we are to kill a French guy.

Before we ask for Robin to out himself, I'd like to discuss this.
It's only a 15% chance he runs away. and there is like a 20% chance of killing a Frenchy.

Yes, that's true, but as stated by someone else, we have the same chance of killing a good guy (or outing the seer).

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:17 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:If the goal were to make a safe kill, it would make more sense to kill Dennis than to kill Robin. The French may still waste a kill on Robin, but are unlikely to take out Dennis.

I disagree. Dennis is a known quantity - there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he is good. That's one less person we have to consider when voting for whom to kill. Not only that, but that's one less person that the seer has to worry about viewing. Finally, we can treat Dennis's opinion as unbiased, which counts for a lot.

Robin can't quite reach the same level of trust as Dennis, but he can get close: You could ask everyone state that they are or they are not Robin. Presumably, only one person would admit to it. At that point, we can chose to let him live or kill him. The french won't kill him (since he may run away) and we don't have to kill him unless we decide we'd rather not chance killing a good guy (Lancelot, Maynard, or Tim). In any case, that's yet another person the seer doesn't have to consider & yet another person we the people don't have to worry about.

I say we get Robin to fess up. After that's done, we can debate the merits of killing him.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:19 pm

Lassr wrote:Grund and ezmate have us on a trend to repress and lynch all the English....

Believe what you want, but a French would have no interest at all in killing Robin - he'll flee eventually and would be a waste of their time.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:30 pm

ezmate wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:If the goal were to make a safe kill, it would make more sense to kill Dennis than to kill Robin. The French may still waste a kill on Robin, but are unlikely to take out Dennis.
I disagree. Dennis is a known quantity - there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he is good. That's one less person we have to consider when voting for whom to kill.

Dennis is valuable as a known quantity, yes. The same might be said for Robin, if Robin were identified.

Not only that, but that's one less person that the seer has to worry about viewing.

The same might be said for Robin, if Robin were identified.

Finally, we can treat Dennis's opinion as unbiased, which counts for a lot.

The same might be said for Robin, if Robin were identified.

Robin can't quite reach the same level of trust as Dennis, but he can get close: You could ask everyone state that they are or they are not Robin. Presumably, only one person would admit to it.

A Frenchman would be foolish to pretend to be Robin; what would be the point, other than to out himself to the real Robin and thereby join a shortlist of mob-targets? For this reason, it's very likely that playing the "I'm not Robin" game-- or simply asking Robin to step forward-- would expose the real Robin.

Assuming we had one claim to Robinhood (:D!) and everyone else on record as not being Robin, we could trust the professing Robin-- provided neither Orinoco nor Cesare was the real Robin.

We know with certainty that Grenard is Dennis. We can know with high probability -- but never with certainty-- whether a professing Robin is the real Robin.

For this reason (i.e., the unknown status of Cesare and Orinoco) alone, ezmate, you're right that Robin can never achieve the same level of trust as Grenard/Dennis.

At that point, we can chose to let him live or kill him. The french won't kill him (since he may run away) and we don't have to kill him unless we decide we'd rather not chance killing a good guy (Lancelot, Maynard, or Tim).

Well, we should definitely do whatever we can do to avoid killing a Special. This means killing either Dennis or Robin.

I say we get Robin to fess up. After that's done, we can debate the merits of killing him.

Now that I've had a chance to think this through more carefully -- rather than shooting off a hasty reply at the end of the workday -- I agree with you ezmate. On balance, Dennis-the-absolutely-known-quantity is more important than Robin. Indeed, there's a 15% chance that Robin will bail on his own, which makes him the least valuable of the Englishmen (since all the rest are stout-hearted). (Meanwhile, Dennis is a better target for the Frenchmen than I thought; by eliminating him, they'd remove the one completely trustworthy, fully proven Englishman.)

Killing Robin at this point does make sense, if the goal is to avoid killing a special.

So then: I'm not Robin.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:50 pm

I'm not Robin, either.

However, all the French you were spouting off earlier still makes me VERY suspicious of you, Grund.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:51 pm

Duly noted, frogman.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:03 pm

Um... I don't see the point in everybody going, "I'm not Robin." Robin is governed by different rules than I was, and he can simply say, "Hay Guys, I'm Robin." I, if I had said the same thing, would have been insta-gibbed. Again, this is unfair towards the peasant population.

In any case, *if* Robin wanted to step forward, we have no way of verifying if he is telling the truth about being Robin. I have been tested, and Robin has no equivalent test (other than suddenly disappearing).

Thus, I would argue, Grund, that Robin is not as valuable as I am, despite that he is a noble and I am but a poor, repressed commoner. Just goes to show the inherently disproportionate attributes of the system, with you wanting to kill me rather than another nobleman.

Bastard.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:11 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote:Um... I don't see the point in everybody going, "I'm not Robin." Robin is governed by different rules than I was, and he can simply say, "Hay Guys, I'm Robin." I, if I had said the same thing, would have been insta-gibbed.

Agreed. Robin can simply step forward. The only point is to get there quicker in case Robin is one of the sporadic semi-participants.

Again, this is unfair towards the peasant population.

Heh

Thus, I would argue, Grund, that Robin is not as valuable as I am, despite that he is a noble and I am but a poor, repressed commoner. Just goes to show the inherently disproportionate attributes of the system, with you wanting to kill me rather than another nobleman.

Ah, but I've already agreed with that point; ezmate was right, and I was wrong.

Bastard.

Old woman.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:55 pm

lemme think...step forward...admit identity...get lynched...sure sounds like a plan!!! the guy is a coward to begin with...slight dichotomy here....hmm where is it...

no i'm not robin....

PR_GMR · Post by **PR_GMR** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:16 pm

I'm sure as hell not Robin.

Are you happy now?!!

(PR walks away.. eating some cuchifrito.)

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:32 pm

I'm not Robin, either.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:38 pm

Color me pink and Commoner. I am no Robin.

brettmcd · Post by **brettmcd** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:49 pm

I will neither confirm nor deny who I am or am not.

(Kinda boring just having people say if they are someone or not, is this really how these games are played?)

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:53 pm

brettmcd wrote:I will neither confirm nor deny who I am or am not.

(Kinda boring just having people say if they are someone or not, is this really how these games are played?)

Not usually. This is a slightly different ruleset then most games, so the play has been different so far.

I, too, will neither confirm nor deny my identity. Looks like there's dirty work afoot.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:03 pm

Kelric wrote:
brettmcd wrote:I will neither confirm nor deny who I am or am not.

(Kinda boring just having people say if they are someone or not, is this really how these games are played?)
Not usually. This is a slightly different ruleset then most games, so the play has been different so far.

I, too, will neither confirm nor deny my identity. Looks like there's dirty work afoot.

So, what's the issue with stating your Robin status?

Is it a mistrust of the motive?

Do you think that it's a bad move?

Do you think it's ruining the game?

Or are you french & just enjoy being difficult?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:05 pm

Dead
Cesare
Orinoco
Dennis
Chris Grenard
Answered: Not Robin
Grundbegriff
pr0ner
Kraegor
PR_GMR
ezmate
Mr Bubbles
Lassr
Answered: Disloyal to Britain
brettmcd
Kelric
Haven't yet answered
ArmyOfOne
Chaosraven
Ralph-Wiggum
UsulofDoom

brettmcd · Post by **brettmcd** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:35 pm

ezmate wrote:
Kelric wrote:
brettmcd wrote:I will neither confirm nor deny who I am or am not.

(Kinda boring just having people say if they are someone or not, is this really how these games are played?)
Not usually. This is a slightly different ruleset then most games, so the play has been different so far.

I, too, will neither confirm nor deny my identity. Looks like there's dirty work afoot.
So, what's the issue with stating your Robin status?

Is it a mistrust of the motive?

Do you think that it's a bad move?

Do you think it's ruining the game?

Or are you french & just enjoy being difficult?

Bolded my choice.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:37 pm

So, if it's ruining the game, what would you like to see? More role playing? Vague references to a strategy, but no outright statement of things like, "It would be best to kill Robin?"

Anyone else have an opinion?

brettmcd · Post by **brettmcd** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:45 pm

ezmate wrote:So, if it's ruining the game, what would you like to see? More role playing? Vague references to a strategy, but no outright statement of things like, "It would be best to kill Robin?"

Anyone else have an opinion?

I just dont think people coming out and saying who they are or are not makes for an interesting game. Sure you might be able to win that way, but its boring.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:56 pm

After reading everything I'm still not sure this is the route to take but to get the game moving.

I'm not Robin.

I get this funny feeling that we are being manipulated by the French.

PR_GMR · Post by **PR_GMR** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:01 pm

Lassr wrote:
I get this funny feeling that we are being manipulated by the French.

Mmmmm. What if Grundbegriff is actually one of the French?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:12 pm

PR_GMR wrote:Mmmmm. What if Grundbegriff is actually one of the French?

Moi?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:14 pm

brettmcd wrote:Bolded my choice.

Ya dance with the one who brung ya-- in this case, Remus West's ruleset.

There has been a lot of variety among the games, because many who host them experiment with the rules. Some rulesets work better than others.

I have the impression that Remus's rules were put together in a spirit of whimsy rather than a spirit of fine-tuning. But then, so was their namesake.

If the remaining four claim not to be Robin, we'll have to assume that if Robin's alive, he's one of the two who won't follow the strategy. Of the two, I'm inclined to suspect brettmcd, since he protesteth so much.

He's right, of course; it's no fun to take one for the team so early.

brettmcd · Post by **brettmcd** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:18 pm

My vote still stays with Grundbegriff, anyone who knows that much french cannot be trusted.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:24 pm

You know, since I have no reason to think otherwise, I will go back to my original vote of the first round, before Dennis came forth.

Grundbegriff

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:32 pm

brettmcd wrote:My vote still stays with Grundbegriff, anyone who knows that much french cannot be trusted.

There is no problem so large that it cannot be solved by a liberal dosage of explosives.

Well put.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:38 pm

I have a sneaky suspicion with Grund.
Grundbegriff

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:56 pm

Im getting that weird feeling from Grund also Grundbegriff

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:12 am

brettmcd wrote:I will neither confirm nor deny who I am or am not.

(Kinda boring just having people say if they are someone or not, is this really how these games are played?)

Given that this is Brett's first game, I find it suspicous that he would lead the way on something like this - I vote to lynch Brettmcd

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:19 am

Lassr wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion with Grund.
Grundbegriff

Don't make me angry. You won't like me when I'm angry.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:49 am

We're a-waitin' to hear from these folks:
Haven't yet answered

ArmyOfOne
Chaosraven
Ralph-Wiggum
UsulofDoom

Robin: you should step forward. This is your moment. This is your destiny.

.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\
l'histoire de Lassr:
Lassr knows French
Lassr knows how many French there are
Lassr makes lame excuses for his Frenchy behavior
Lassr seeks clarification of French rules

* If he were French, he would do half these things by PM to Remus. Ergo, Lassr isn't French.
* ezmate isn't French.
* brettmcd isn't French.
* Low-profilers include ArmyOfOne, Kraegor, Ralph-Wiggum, UsulofDoom. One of them is French.
* Mr Bubbles is talking too much about what "they" would do and what "they" are thinking. He's French.
* Kelric seems superficially French because of the "Framing" incident, but I think he just had himself on his mind because he now senses his own importance as the winningest player. He isn't French.
* Chaosraven is French.

Isn't that exciting?

.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\.;'`\

Vote:
brettmcd accuses Grundbegriff(1)
pr0ner accuses Grundbegriff(2)
Lassr accuses Grundbegriff(3)
Mr Bubbles accuses Grundbegriff(4)-
ezmate accuses brettmcd(1)-

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:24 am

Kelric wrote:I, too, will neither confirm nor deny my identity. Looks like there's dirty work afoot.

I can understand brettmcd making this anti-Albion blunder, but I have difficulty seeing how you would make it. Can you justify your opposition to the lynch-Robin tactic? It's clearly the best way to avoid killing Maynard, and Robin stands a greater chance than any other Englishman of bailing prematurely anyhow.

Why do you hate England?

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:19 am

Since it seems inevitable...

How many Robin hints do I have to drop in this game?

Kelric wrote:prove you are not French or else face somebody's sword! Not mine though, I wouldn't want to dull such a beautiful piece of steel.

Kelric wrote:I can say with certainty that I have no proof that Bubbles is French. I also have no proof that he isn't. If I find anything out, I'll run straight to you guys and let you know.

Kelric wrote:I am NOT Dennis, btw. If any of you says I am, I'm going to have to avoid you lynchers for a while.

Kelric wrote:Looks like there's dirty work afoot.

I'll even come right out and explain my entire thought process here, if only for the novelty.

I figure that dropping hints from the beginning would give me some credibility if I ever had to out myself as Robin. I also thought that if any dirty Frenchies picked up on it, they'd probably leave me alive as it would be a waste to kill me when I can potentially run away all on my own and do their work for them. Also, I figured that if any of my fellow Englishmen realized what I was trying to say, they would avoid lynching me as they know I can be trusted. Lastly, I just had fun with it.

So there. I'm brave Sir Robin. Lynch me if you must. I'll face my death like the brave knight I am. With a brave retreat.

ezmate · Post by **ezmate** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:40 am

Well, with that news, I change my vote & choose to kill Brave, brave, Sir Kelric

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:31 am

Grundbegriff wrote:We're a-waitin' to hear from these folks:
Haven't yet answered
Chaosraven
* Chaosraven is French.
Isn't that exciting?

I'm not Robin.

Unfortunately the only way to prove I'm not French is
(a) Lynch me - you'll find a Dead Englishman
(b) Maynard id's me - but we don't want Maynard outed yet
(c) Lancelot protects me and doesn't die from doing so - but Lance has Dennis (our only proven innocent) or Maynard to protect
and even if he did protect me, we don't want Lance outed just to
protect some dumb NonSpecial Englishman.

That being said, I will deny being:

Robin
Dennis

My reasons for not denying the following:
Lancelot - if I am Lancelot I cannot protect myself anyway. If the french kill me there was nothing I could do. If the vote goes high enough to lynch me I will reveal who I protected and that will give a list of "proven innocents"
Maynard - if I am Maynard I will post a list of my id'd Players to give either French names or English names. If the French kill me, they will not have killed the actual Maynard.
Tim - if I am Tim I will blow up Grundbegriff for saying I am French. Hmm. No boom yet. I may not be Tim.
Concorde - if the French kill me I get better. Not sure when as the rules don't seem to say explicitly, but we shall assume the real Concorde has already PM'd remus and gotten the details.
Frenchman #2 - the 3 Frenchmen know I am not one of them. Telling the rest of you that smacks of desperation. If I am a nonspecial Englishman I am willing to die to protect Maynard.
Frenchman #1 and #3 - I may indeed be both of these Frenchman. But probably not.
A Normal Englishman - If I deny being a Normal Englishman with no Credits in this Film for a Starring Role I would be a liar, so I'll just remain mysterious on that account.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:56 am

I am certainly not French. Who would want to live with all those smokers, anyway? I much prefer bad teeth.

ArmyOfOne · Post by **ArmyOfOne** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:25 am

Nope, I'm not the brave Sir Robin. I am but a simple Englishman... However Kelric is a WITCH!! err.. I mean a FRENCH!... BURN HIM!!!