Octopus Overlords

Captain Caveman wrote:She was in Cleveland planning her wedding, which helps explain a bit why she wouldn't want to back out of the trip.

But still.

Captain Caveman wrote:The clusterfuck grows: apparently the healthcare workers wore no protective gear for the first few days until Ebola was confirmed for Duncan.

Jeebus.

RMC wrote:Man, I work in healthcare in Cleveland... Holy crap... I am not a clinician, but I am getting calls from people I went to high school with and asking if they need to rush to the ER because they drove by the airport on the day the nurse was there.

If this continues to grow, I can only imagine what is going to happen. Hell, I am worried about this as well, but information is the best way to calm people. And not have people ignoring what they were told to do, or not do.

<sigh>

LawBeefaroni wrote:

RMC wrote:Man, I work in healthcare in Cleveland... Holy crap... I am not a clinician, but I am getting calls from people I went to high school with and asking if they need to rush to the ER because they drove by the airport on the day the nurse was there.

If this continues to grow, I can only imagine what is going to happen. Hell, I am worried about this as well, but information is the best way to calm people. And not have people ignoring what they were told to do, or not do.

<sigh>

If this stretches into flu-season, it's going to be a triage nightmare.

Zarathud wrote:The most disturbing part of this is that we couldn't impress upon this nurse the importance of self-quarantine and risk to the public from travel by plane.

But I'm sure Texas will blame the CDC and Obama.

Zarathud wrote:The most disturbing part of this is that we couldn't impress upon this nurse the importance of self-quarantine and risk to the public from travel by plane.

Isgrimnur wrote:I've met plenty of nurses and nursing students. I lived in a city that was responsible for training a great number of them. They were unremarkable in any other way in being distinguished from the population at large. There were some that I wouldn't trust to figure out the pointy end of a sharp. I have issues granting anyone an additional benefit of the doubt just because they are a nurse.

paulbaxter wrote:

Zarathud wrote:The most disturbing part of this is that we couldn't impress upon this nurse the importance of self-quarantine and risk to the public from travel by plane.

But I'm sure Texas will blame the CDC and Obama.

I've already seen people on facebook blaming Obama. Look, if you're a republican, wouldn't you want LESS involvement by the gvt.?

Rip wrote:When you make proclamations about things you can't possibly know for sure, don't be surprised with the resulting vitriol.

If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan.

@CBSDFW wrote:CBS News reporting that nurse Amber Vinson called #CDC BEFORE boarding the plane and was told she was OK to get on the plane with 99.5 temp

xwraith wrote:

@CBSDFW wrote:CBS News reporting that nurse Amber Vinson called #CDC BEFORE boarding the plane and was told she was OK to get on the plane with 99.5 temp

xwraith wrote:

@CBSDFW wrote:CBS News reporting that nurse Amber Vinson called #CDC BEFORE boarding the plane and was told she was OK to get on the plane with 99.5 temp

Rip wrote:

xwraith wrote:

@CBSDFW wrote:CBS News reporting that nurse Amber Vinson called #CDC BEFORE boarding the plane and was told she was OK to get on the plane with 99.5 temp

Yea, now lets see if the same contempt that was had for her gets translated to the CDC. I doubt it but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised.

CBS News Medical Correspondent Dr. John LaPook reports that Vinson called the CDC several times before boarding the plane concerned about her fever.

“This nurse, Nurse Vinson, did in fact call the CDC several times before taking that flight and said she has a temperature, a fever of 99.5, and the person at the CDC looked at a chart and because her temperature wasn’t 100.4 or higher she didn’t officially fall into the category of high risk.”

"We gave the patient the benefit of the doubt, and in retrospect we made a mistake," said Dr. Julie Gerberding, head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "We failed to take the aggressive actions we could have."

malchior wrote:I like to think that while disease might be the mechanism, the root cause of the end of humanity is probably going to be typical big organizational incompetence. So you say you had exposure to a virulent infestation that we are trying to contain and have a slightly elevated temperature - hmm - well the handbook says you're in range so no problems! FFS.

I also don't think the CDC is only on the hook - this is akin to someone asking permission to do something stupid probably knowing it was stupid and wanting to do just it anyway (i.e. ass covering).

CHICAGO (AP) - Screening for the Ebola virus is to begin at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport.

Customs and health officials at O'Hare will take the temperatures of passengers from three West African countries starting Thursday.

Federal health officials say the entry screenings add another layer of protection to halt the spread of the Ebola virus that has killed thousands. Screeners will use no-touch thermometers to try to find passengers with fevers.

Dulles is one of four U.S. Airports scheduled to begin the screening process Thursday, along with airports in Chicago, Atlanta, and Newark, New Jersey.

ColdSteel wrote:I have very little confidence that the CDC (or any other government agency) can handle a real pandemic type of situation. Maybe 30 years ago they could but I don't think the public in general has any real idea of how badly government agencies and their workforces have eroded over those 30 years (and funding is just one of the reasons). Believe me, I personally know this to be true. Political appointees like this clown at CDC are running the show and all they want to do is look good and do damage control as far as fingers pointing at their agency goes.

Apparently the CDC person the nurse called looked up information on the Internet and then told her she was okay to fly with a fever after Ebola exposure when a blind chimpanzee has enough common sense to know better. At worst they should have deferred the decision to an Ebola expert within CDC. Staggering incompetence.

The fact that the hospital staff had no clue about proper protocol and allowed workers to treat Duncan for 2.5 days before adopting proper gear speaks volumes about how prepared the average hospital is for this. This is a giant wakeup call for the US and it will turn out to be a good thing if we can not make any additional mistakes and stop it at this point. There will eventually be a lot of lessons learned. If it spreads further though, they really should call in the WHO which, unlike CDC, actually has experience in dealing with things like this. Hubris on the part of the government will likely prevent that from happening though (unless things get really bad).

Captain Caveman wrote:At Target yesterday here in North Dallas, my wife reports seeing not one, not two, but three separate people in various degrees of protective gear-- all had breathing masks, two had gloves, and one had some sort of protective gown. Absolute craziness. I can only hope this gets nipped in the bud soon or this town may lose its collective mind.

This morning my kid is getting a flu shot (well, nasal spray) right across the street from Presbyterian hospital. He'll be fine.

ColdSteel wrote:I have very little confidence that the CDC (or any other government agency) can handle a real pandemic type of situation. Maybe 30 years ago they could but I don't think the public in general has any real idea of how badly government agencies and their workforces have eroded over those 30 years (and funding is just one of the reasons). Believe me, I personally know this to be true. Political appointees like this clown at CDC are running the show and all they want to do is look good and do damage control as far as fingers pointing at their agency goes.

Apparently the CDC person the nurse called looked up information on the Internet and then told her she was okay to fly with a fever after Ebola exposure when a blind chimpanzee has enough common sense to know better. At worst they should have deferred the decision to an Ebola expert within CDC. Staggering incompetence.

The fact that the hospital staff had no clue about proper protocol and allowed workers to treat Duncan for 2.5 days before adopting proper gear speaks volumes about how prepared the average hospital is for this. This is a giant wakeup call for the US and it will turn out to be a good thing if we can not make any additional mistakes and stop it at this point. There will eventually be a lot of lessons learned. If it spreads further though, they really should call in the WHO which, unlike CDC, actually has experience in dealing with things like this. Hubris on the part of the government will likely prevent that from happening though (unless things get really bad).

Sean G. Kaufman, who oversaw infection control at Emory University Hospital while it treated Dr. Kent Brantly and Nancy Writebol, the first two American Ebola patients, called the earlier C.D.C. guidelines “absolutely irresponsible and dead wrong.” Speaking by phone from Liberia, where he was training workers for Samaritan’s Purse, the medical charity that Dr. Brantly and Ms. Writebol worked for, Mr. Kaufman said he had warned the agency as recently as a week ago that its guidelines were lax.

“They kind of blew me off,” he said. “I’m happy to see they’re changing them, but it’s late.”

The Doctors Without Borders guidelines are even stricter than the new C.D.C. directives in that they require full coverage of the torso, head and legs with fabrics that blood or vomit cannot soak through, along with rubber aprons, goggles or face shields, sealed wrists and rubber boots. Doctors and nurses wear two sets of gloves, including long outer ones that strap or are taped to the gown; janitors wear three sets.

As they undress in choreographed steps, Doctors Without Borders workers wash their hands with chlorine solution eight times and are sprayed with a chlorine mist. Most important, all personnel disrobe only under the eyes of a supervisor whose job is to prevent even a single misstep.

Risky procedures like blood sampling are kept to a minimum.

“I’ve seen the C.D.C. poster,” said a Doctors Without Borders representative who spoke on the condition of anonymity because she did not want to be named criticizing the agency, and who was referring to C.D.C. guidelines before they were changed on Tuesday. “It doesn’t say anywhere that it’s for Ebola. I was surprised that it was only one set of gloves, and the rest bare hands. It seems to be for general cases of infectious disease.”

$iljanus wrote:

ColdSteel wrote:I have very little confidence that the CDC (or any other government agency) can handle a real pandemic type of situation. Maybe 30 years ago they could but I don't think the public in general has any real idea of how badly government agencies and their workforces have eroded over those 30 years (and funding is just one of the reasons). Believe me, I personally know this to be true. Political appointees like this clown at CDC are running the show and all they want to do is look good and do damage control as far as fingers pointing at their agency goes.

Apparently the CDC person the nurse called looked up information on the Internet and then told her she was okay to fly with a fever after Ebola exposure when a blind chimpanzee has enough common sense to know better. At worst they should have deferred the decision to an Ebola expert within CDC. Staggering incompetence.

The fact that the hospital staff had no clue about proper protocol and allowed workers to treat Duncan for 2.5 days before adopting proper gear speaks volumes about how prepared the average hospital is for this. This is a giant wakeup call for the US and it will turn out to be a good thing if we can not make any additional mistakes and stop it at this point. There will eventually be a lot of lessons learned. If it spreads further though, they really should call in the WHO which, unlike CDC, actually has experience in dealing with things like this. Hubris on the part of the government will likely prevent that from happening though (unless things get really bad).

Then this article will validate your concerns. Don't know if that's a good thing unfortunately:

Lax U.S. Guidelines on Ebola Led to Poor Hospital Training, Experts Say

Some choice quotes from the NYT article:

Sean G. Kaufman, who oversaw infection control at Emory University Hospital while it treated Dr. Kent Brantly and Nancy Writebol, the first two American Ebola patients, called the earlier C.D.C. guidelines “absolutely irresponsible and dead wrong.” Speaking by phone from Liberia, where he was training workers for Samaritan’s Purse, the medical charity that Dr. Brantly and Ms. Writebol worked for, Mr. Kaufman said he had warned the agency as recently as a week ago that its guidelines were lax.

“They kind of blew me off,” he said. “I’m happy to see they’re changing them, but it’s late.”

And...

The Doctors Without Borders guidelines are even stricter than the new C.D.C. directives in that they require full coverage of the torso, head and legs with fabrics that blood or vomit cannot soak through, along with rubber aprons, goggles or face shields, sealed wrists and rubber boots. Doctors and nurses wear two sets of gloves, including long outer ones that strap or are taped to the gown; janitors wear three sets.

As they undress in choreographed steps, Doctors Without Borders workers wash their hands with chlorine solution eight times and are sprayed with a chlorine mist. Most important, all personnel disrobe only under the eyes of a supervisor whose job is to prevent even a single misstep.

Risky procedures like blood sampling are kept to a minimum.

“I’ve seen the C.D.C. poster,” said a Doctors Without Borders representative who spoke on the condition of anonymity because she did not want to be named criticizing the agency, and who was referring to C.D.C. guidelines before they were changed on Tuesday. “It doesn’t say anywhere that it’s for Ebola. I was surprised that it was only one set of gloves, and the rest bare hands. It seems to be for general cases of infectious disease.”

Fascinating though to read about the infection control that the NGOs are following in Africa.

RMC wrote:And with all that a Doctor and Nurse from that program still contracted the virus? Wow, that does not bode well for this outbreak at all..

Smoove_B wrote:The spray is quite effective. Produces a quicker and stronger immune response.

RMC wrote:And with all that a Doctor and Nurse from that program still contracted the virus? Wow, that does not bode well for this outbreak at all..

Carpet_pissr wrote:

Smoove_B wrote:The spray is quite effective. Produces a quicker and stronger immune response.

Interesting - can adults get the spray form as well? I have only ever gotten the shot (and kids get spray).

Can the nasal spray flu vaccine give you the flu?

No. While the nasal spray flu vaccine does contain live viruses (unlike the flu shot), the viruses are attenuated (weakened) and cannot cause flu illness. The weakened viruses are cold-adapted, which means they are designed to only cause infection at the cooler temperatures found within the nose. The viruses cannot infect the lungs or other areas where warmer temperatures exist.

silverjon wrote:

RMC wrote:And with all that a Doctor and Nurse from that program still contracted the virus? Wow, that does not bode well for this outbreak at all..

Internet says MSF has had 16 infections among staff, 9 fatal.

Smoove_B wrote:

Carpet_pissr wrote:

Smoove_B wrote:The spray is quite effective. Produces a quicker and stronger immune response.

Interesting - can adults get the spray form as well? I have only ever gotten the shot (and kids get spray).

Yes. There was even an approval granted earlier this year for a vaccine that doesn't contain egg allergens so people that were previously unable to be vaccinated now can do so. Info on the Live Attenuated ("Flu Mist") vaccine is here. Note, that because you're exposed to a living organism (as opposed the inactivated vaccine traditionally offered), the risk for some type of illness is higher (though still really, really low and not the flu regardless). In other words, the potential side effects will likely be more significant and systemic (though still rather limited). However, because it's a live organism, your immune system has a much stronger response to it.

Can the nasal spray flu vaccine give you the flu?

No. While the nasal spray flu vaccine does contain live viruses (unlike the flu shot), the viruses are attenuated (weakened) and cannot cause flu illness. The weakened viruses are cold-adapted, which means they are designed to only cause infection at the cooler temperatures found within the nose. The viruses cannot infect the lungs or other areas where warmer temperatures exist.

Science, bitches!