Corona Virus: It's a Marathon, Not a Sprint

[malchior]

Mine is way looser. The only thing I do right now for 'clothes exposure' is I wear a long overcoat. I leave that outside in the garage. Then it's shoes off on garage step, directly into kitchen, wash hands, bags onto the floor instead of counters, unload goods directly into final resting place, dispose of bags outside, wash hands, done. These are dry goods that aren't going to be used for a few days so I don't feel the need to go wiping down boxes/bags. The other stuff is bagged meats/produce. I'm going to assume exposure is low and it'll be mitigated by time. I could go crazy but my rough guess is the bulk of exposure risk is in the store. That is why I go alone, have a list, go early or just prior to close, and bang it out quick. Which was my usual routine anyway. I hate crowds/lines in general.

[Blackhawk]

I think the ideal system would be shopping on a week's delay. While you eat this week's groceries, next week's are sitting untouched, still in the bags. Next week on shopping day you bring those inside, put them away, and get another week's that sit untouched. That means that any contaminants on the food would likely be dead before you handled it.

Of course this doesn't work well for short-term perishables, and only really works well if you have a second fridge/freezer.

[Jeff V]

So the worldwide cumulative cases are around 1M and the US is at 250K. We make up 1/4 of the known worldwide cases? Between just the US, Italy and Spain we make up 45-50% of all cases?

A country like India has 2,543 cases? I'm thinking that we're missing a lot of data/tests and things could get (or are) very very bad in a lot of these other countries. That or they have some built-in immunity, which seems unlikely.

Many Asian countries have a smaller percentage of their population in risk groups, though. When scads of people are dying from things such as mosquito bites, the root cause of particular deaths are not looked at too closely.

Climate does appear to have an effect. Cases in China dropped considerably once warmer weather settled in. Tropical and subtropical climates do not appear to have had nearly as severe a problem as temperate latitudes. India may well be getting off easy for this reason.

[gilraen]

Climate does appear to have an effect. Cases in China dropped considerably once warmer weather settled in. Tropical and subtropical climates do not appear to have had nearly as severe a problem as temperate latitudes. India may well be getting off easy for this reason.

Yeah...I don't think that's working out very well for Florida, Georgia and Louisiana.

[Unagi]

Florida and Louisiana don’t appear to be

[Unagi]

Bammed’

[Yojimbo]

These things aren't expanding the government - they're already there (or should be in the case of federal management of a pandemic). In fact, one could argue that, contrary to your statement, we did trim the federal government (i.e., the pandemic response capabilities) and now we're paying the price for it.

Your use of logic is troublesome. I will now have to resort to the same but I don't think the internet is supposed to be used with logic.

[Executive Summary]: I just take exception to your idea that a sub-committee of the National Security Council being able to manage this crisis for us.

As evidence I will suggest that we had a perfectly good NSC task force on Ukraine under the past administration made up of the now infamous Lt. Col Vindman. This group was in place (and actively "managing") when Russia waged a skunk works campaign (complete with false flag and counter-intell assets) and seized a good portion of the nation of Ukraine under the fake narrative of HELPING out ethnic Russians living there who were oppressed. This NSC group was not able to stop that crisis, not at all. They just watched one nation invade another and TAKE over a territory (the kind of thing we used to have a UN to prevent). That Ukraine task force did a fair job of documenting that disaster but no one could suggest that they lessened it, or remedied it, managed it, or stopped it. I would suggest that the pandemic task force would probably similarly be taking good meeting minutes right now.

So for me: I am skeptical of the value equation that I am getting for my tax dollar from an NSC sub-group. I feel like not letting Ukraine get invaded was maybe the ONE JOB of that task force. (Insert your favorite You Had One Job Meme here if you like)

I look at the bigger picture in this way:
The sort of people they let be "in charge" during the salad days are almost never equal to what what happens when things get disastrous. We see this in both small and large groups. I'm thinking of Gen. Montgomery and Adm. King ("When they get in trouble they send for the sons-of-bitches.") these types of get-it-done leaders. People like this would never sit still for foolishness of paper shuffling in a "leadership" job without great things afoot. These are the men and women who refuse to attend committee meetings, they don't wait in line well, they don't play well with others. So your idea that a few people in task force who spend decades waiting for a disaster will be exactly the leaders that we will need when it strikes is suspect in my eyes. I would suggest that a crummy job like that would attract officious paper-pushers who spend more time fighting for turf and power. Then, when disaster strikes they might fall back on blame and accusations (you didn't read my memos or attend my meetings!). This is the type of rat that thrives in the maze of a bureaucracy.

[Unagi]

of the now infamous Lt. Col Vindman.

I'm sorry.... but is infamous the word you meant to use here?

[Trent Steel]

of the now infamous Lt. Col Vindman.

I'm sorry.... but is infamous the word you meant to use here?

Judging from the incomprehensible rambling... yes, yes he did.

[Jeff V]

I think the ideal system would be shopping on a week's delay. While you eat this week's groceries, next week's are sitting untouched, still in the bags. Next week on shopping day you bring those inside, put them away, and get another week's that sit untouched. That means that any contaminants on the food would likely be dead before you handled it.

Of course this doesn't work well for short-term perishables, and only really works well if you have a second fridge/freezer.

We do have a second freezer, and our fridge has been mostly at capacity. We consume a lot of fresh produce though, and as much as my wife wants us to be on one-day-a-week shopping schedule, we usually find ourselves needing a mid-week run.

[gilraen]

I look at the bigger picture in this way:
The sort of people they let be "in charge" during the salad days are almost never equal to what what happens when things get disastrous. We see this in both small and large groups. I'm thinking of Gen. Montgomery and Adm. King ("When they get in trouble they send for the sons-of-bitches.") these types of get-it-done leaders. People like this would never sit still for foolishness of paper shuffling in a "leadership" job without great things afoot. These are the men and women who refuse to attend committee meetings, they don't wait in line well, they don't play well with others. So your idea that a few people in task force who spend decades waiting for a disaster will be exactly the leaders that we will need when it strikes is suspect in my eyes. I would suggest that a crummy job like that would attract officious paper-pushers who spend more time fighting for turf and power. Then, when disaster strikes they might fall back on blame and accusations (you didn't read my memos or attend my meetings!). This is the type of rat that thrives in the maze of a bureaucracy.

[malchior]

of the now infamous Lt. Col Vindman.

I'm sorry.... but is infamous the word you meant to use here?

Judging from the incomprehensible rambling... yes, yes he did.

To be fair, I comprehended it but I then immediately envisioned a sharp Billy Madison reference.

[ImLawBoy]

So your idea that a few people in task force who spend decades waiting for a disaster will be exactly the leaders that we will need when it strikes is suspect in my eyes.

I never made anywhere close to that argument. You seem to keep thinking that people are arguing that not dismantling the pandemic response team or having a semi-competent administration would have made all of this pandemic situation go away. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Even taking into account many of your (somewhat dubious, IMO) assumptions about the people who would have been on the response team, something is better than nothing. And to compare this to a completely unrelated foreign policy task force is ludicrous - assuming that the pandemic response team would be a failure because another task force failed is exceedingly flawed logic. You'd need to show a lot more for that example to have any relevance at all to this situation.

[malchior]

And to compare this to a completely unrelated foreign policy task force is ludicrous - assuming that the pandemic response team would be a failure because another task force failed is exceedingly flawed logic.

Exactly. Completely unrelated and faulty correlation at its core. Also, that "failure" is a failure by dubious reasoning as well. Almost everyone agrees we couldn't do anything to stop that invasion short of threatening to nuke Moscow. I suspect it is derp all the way down here.

[El Guapo]

This isn't taking long.

https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/ ... 4052852736

[Moat_Man]

3M faces pressure from Trump order to stop exporting N95 masks to Canada

This is getting massive play here in Canada. It's basically an attack on our healthcare workers and one of the most shortsighted and selfish moves Trump has ever made in a career made out of selfishness. Does he realize that there are literally thousands of Canadian healthcare workers that live in Canada but work in American hospitals? Those workers are risking Canadian lives because they come home to Canada every day and risk being infected and transmitting the disease locally, but we let it go because we care about our neighbours. Well if you don't care about us, should we be risking our lives and community for you? You know that there are reactionry people who will be asking that question. Do I have to stop making a distinction between the American people that I generally love and support and whom we risk our lives for when there are disasters (Katrina) and wars (Afghanistan), and Trump?

Any other Canadians here have any thoughts on this one?

[Jeff V]

3M faces pressure from Trump order to stop exporting N95 masks to Canada

This is getting massive play here in Canada. It's basically an attack on our healthcare workers and one of the most shortsighted and selfish moves Trump has ever made in a career made out of selfishness. Does he realize that there are literally thousands of Canadian healthcare workers that live in Canada but work in American hospitals? Those workers are risking Canadian lives because they come home to Canada every day and risk being infected and transmitting the disease locally, but we let it go because we care about our neighbours. Well if you don't care about us, should we be risking our lives and community for you? You know that there are reactionry people who will be asking that question. Do I have to stop making a distinction between the American people that I generally love and support and whom we risk our lives for when there are disasters (Katrina) and wars (Afghanistan), and Trump?

Any other Canadians here have any thoughts on this one?

Trump does not have the cognitive capacity to process a simple if-then statement, much less something as complicated as a supply chain.

[Unagi]

For what it's worth - (liberal) American's are generally disgusted (as is 3M) by the Trump Admin's push on this.

My hope is they resist it, and continue to supply not just Canada, but also Latin America with what they are relying on. Anything short of that is not human, IMO.

[malchior]

The problem now is that Trump doesn't have a good history of backing down when publicly challenged. He is a petty thug so this has a high chance of going sideways quick. He can legally stop them from exporting and he might just do it to make a point here.

[LawBeefaroni]

3M faces pressure from Trump order to stop exporting N95 masks to Canada

This is getting massive play here in Canada. It's basically an attack on our healthcare workers and one of the most shortsighted and selfish moves Trump has ever made in a career made out of selfishness. Does he realize that there are literally thousands of Canadian healthcare workers that live in Canada but work in American hospitals? Those workers are risking Canadian lives because they come home to Canada every day and risk being infected and transmitting the disease locally, but we let it go because we care about our neighbours. Well if you don't care about us, should we be risking our lives and community for you? You know that there are reactionry people who will be asking that question. Do I have to stop making a distinction between the American people that I generally love and support and whom we risk our lives for when there are disasters (Katrina) and wars (Afghanistan), and Trump?

Any other Canadians here have any thoughts on this one?

I threw it in the Trump Presidency thread.

Trump is an idiot but he's our fault so do what you gotta do.

[Yojimbo]

I never made anywhere close to that argument. You seem to keep thinking that people are arguing that not dismantling the pandemic response team or having a semi-competent administration would have made all of this pandemic situation go away. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Even taking into account many of your (somewhat dubious, IMO) assumptions about the people who would have been on the response team, something is better than nothing. And to compare this to a completely unrelated foreign policy task force is ludicrous - assuming that the pandemic response team would be a failure because another task force failed is exceedingly flawed logic. You'd need to show a lot more for that example to have any relevance at all to this situation.

You are right - it is a tendentious relationship at best (it was simply a recently famous NSC Task Force that failed horribly and then devolved into back biting and blaming in a spectacular public fashion).

Honesty, it seems like most of you already understand all I could hope for:
1. "That not dismantling the pandemic response team or having a semi-competent administration would have made all of this pandemic situation go away." (quoted because I think me badly paraphrasing could come across as another volley).
2. That even Fauci (who seems genuinely a good actor (in the Greek sense) to me) didn't know how bad this was in late Jan to early Feb - weeks when we could have been taking effective drastic (but wildly unpopular) measures to keep this better contained.

I cannot really ask for more than those two points from a group of folks to have very different world views. I appreciate you all putting up with my rambling rants!

[Smoove_B]

Meanwhile, George Orwell was right.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1246109260104294406

After Jared Kushner’s comment about how the Strategic National Stockpile is not supposed to be for states, lots of people pointed to the fact that its own website says it is.

The language on the website has now been changed.

[RunningMn9]

I just take exception to your idea that a sub-committee of the National Security Council being able to manage this crisis for us.

Here's what I don't get. The sub-committee in question wasn't just some random sub-committee. It's wasn't just some random sub-committee. It was a sub-committee whose purpose for existing was not to manage a crisis like this. It existed for the primary purpose of alerting us to the beginning stages of a crisis like this. The purpose was to give us the maximum amount of time possible to prepare to fight it.

The NSC doesn't replace an Administration in a crisis. It's role isn't to manage anything. It's job isn't to manage the Ukraine / Russia conflict.

Here's what I can't figure out with your posts. What is it you think would have helped? How would less government help resolve this in any way?

So your idea that a few people in task force who spend decades waiting for a disaster will be exactly the leaders that we will need when it strikes is suspect in my eyes.

Again, the idea is that these people in a task force who spend decades preparing for a disaster will be *exactly* the kinds of experts that leaders will need to make the right decisions that need to be made.

Why aren't you getting this? We're stuck with the most comically inept "leader" that this nation has ever seen. I get it. We all get it. In all probability, this clown show would have almost certainly ignored the alarm signals from an NSC Subcommittee anyway. So maybe on that front, we can find common ground. Why fund a group of people to be experts on something if you are just going to ignore their expertise anyway?

But like many have said before, including me, there is literally only one entity that is capable of managing a nationwide epidemic / global pandemic, and that's the federal government. We can't have a situation where NY and CA are trying to outbid each other for life-saving equipment. That's the only outcome possible from the "smaller govt" model.

[Unagi]

Meanwhile, George Orwell was right.

OMG, this is just so , so obvious? - what a joke.

[ImLawBoy]

I cannot really ask for more than those two points from a group of folks to have very different world views. I appreciate you all putting up with my rambling rants!

Don't assume that our worldviews are all that opposed. 2020 will be the first presidential election since 1992 (my first where I was eligible to vote) that I will not vote for the Libertarian party candidate. Sometimes reality has to override theory and ideology, however.

[Alefroth]

So for me: I am skeptical of the value equation that I am getting for my tax dollar from an NSC sub-group. I feel like not letting Ukraine get invaded was maybe the ONE JOB of that task force. (Insert your favorite You Had One Job Meme here if you like)

Who do you think would have done a better job?

[wonderpug]

Popehat’s post about the risk to the prison population is trending most viral on Imgur today

[IceBear]

3M faces pressure from Trump order to stop exporting N95 masks to Canada

This is getting massive play here in Canada. It's basically an attack on our healthcare workers and one of the most shortsighted and selfish moves Trump has ever made in a career made out of selfishness. Does he realize that there are literally thousands of Canadian healthcare workers that live in Canada but work in American hospitals? Those workers are risking Canadian lives because they come home to Canada every day and risk being infected and transmitting the disease locally, but we let it go because we care about our neighbours. Well if you don't care about us, should we be risking our lives and community for you? You know that there are reactionry people who will be asking that question. Do I have to stop making a distinction between the American people that I generally love and support and whom we risk our lives for when there are disasters (Katrina) and wars (Afghanistan), and Trump?

Any other Canadians here have any thoughts on this one?

I threw it in the Trump Presidency thread.

Trump is an idiot but he's our fault so do what you gotta do.

Being from Newfoundland my friends were quick to start sharing this picture (hopefully it shares):

[LawBeefaroni]

Meanwhile, George Orwell was right.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1246109260104294406

After Jared Kushner’s comment about how the Strategic National Stockpile is not supposed to be for states, lots of people pointed to the fact that its own website says it is.

The language on the website has now been changed.

What a hamfisted rewrite. Jesus.

[stessier]

Meanwhile, George Orwell was right.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1246109260104294406

After Jared Kushner’s comment about how the Strategic National Stockpile is not supposed to be for states, lots of people pointed to the fact that its own website says it is.

The language on the website has now been changed.

Have they never heard of the Wayback Machine?

[Yojimbo]

So for me: I am skeptical of the value equation that I am getting for my tax dollar from an NSC sub-group. I feel like not letting Ukraine get invaded was maybe the ONE JOB of that task force. (Insert your favorite You Had One Job Meme here if you like)

Who do you think would have done a better job?

I don't want to derail the virus thread too far but we (the free world) came across an awfully faint allies in the Crimea situation. I'm not claiming that X strategy would have been perfect. I'm claiming that an active, in tacT, NSC Task Force didn't avert that disaster. And, yes, I think a sovereign ally losing a state/region to a hostile neighbor while the world sat on its hands was a disaster. State level lies were told, people were murdered, a deal of some kind seems to have been brokered with evil (one can assumed to avoid the "lesser of two evils" in someone's opinion). Some people DO think the outcome of the Crimea/Ukraine situation was fine - Vladimir Putin for example.

If I watch bandits rob my elderly neighbor, shame on me. If the same thing happens aT the national level, shame on me.

[Yojimbo]

I cannot really ask for more than those two points from a group of folks to have very different world views. I appreciate you all putting up with my rambling rants!

Don't assume that our worldviews are all that opposed. 2020 will be the first presidential election since 1992 (my first where I was eligible to vote) that I will not vote for the Libertarian party candidate. Sometimes reality has to override theory and ideology, however.

I am a terrible Libertarian, really. The 'pure Libertarians' in my state tell me this often. I am told I would be more pure if I was for free trade across boarders, etc. But I'm a nationalist and a wee bit of protectionist, as well. Our annual conference got canceled, of course, so I am probably taking my arguing out on you all who don't deserve it. Apologies if I am a bit strident at times. I'm perfectly capable of being wrong, its just that I am the last one to know when it happens.

[Zaxxon]

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/12461 ... 92640?s=19

It's almost as though he doesn't realize it's the 4th year of *his* administration. Or that he literally fired the team responsible for ensuring *his* administration was prepared...

[hepcat]

Great presidents follow “the buck stops here” path. Shitty presidents don’t.

[Unagi]

It's laughable. Trump is the Original buck. Nothing is his fault ever, ever, ever - to the degree now where he hardly even wants to be seen anywhere near something critical like handling the care of Americans through this pandemic.

[malchior]

BTW something absolutely insane is going on with the Federal government potentially punishing blue states. In this case, MA. I'm trying to find a concise story published but essentially the Governor of Mass had to back channel with the Chinese Ambassador to the UN to get a private plane ( owned by the Krafts no less) to sneak the supplies in because the Feds kept intercepting the order. Insanity.

Baker: Started calling "everybody I could think of" how to get masks after 3 million masks MA had "lost" to the feds in the port of New York to try to get more masks. Those masks had been ordered through BJ's, then the feds seized them. Baker said he called Jonathan Kraft with idea of treating Chinese mask purchase as "private humanitarian mission" to keep the feds from finding out. Ambassador Wong (Chinese UN ambassador) was "incredibly important" in arranging the deal and shipment.

Baker: Governor of Alaska helped with the mask shipment, arranging for the plane to land there so the crew could rest.

[YellowKing]

I’m confused. I thought Trump’s job was to make America great again by undoing all the damage that Obama had done. So why couldn’t he fix Obama’s botched pandemic preparation over the last four years?

Oh that’s right, distraction from the liberal witch hunt.

[Unagi]

BTW something absolutely insane is going on with the Federal government potentially punishing blue states. In this case, MA. I'm trying to find a concise story published but essentially the Governor of Mass had to back channel with the Chinese Ambassador to the UN to get a private plane ( owned by the Krafts no less) to sneak the supplies in because the Feds kept intercepting the order. Insanity.

Baker: Started calling "everybody I could think of" how to get masks after 3 million masks MA had "lost" to the feds in the port of New York to try to get more masks. Those masks had been ordered through BJ's, then the feds seized them. Baker said he called Jonathan Kraft with idea of treating Chinese mask purchase as "private humanitarian mission" to keep the feds from finding out. Ambassador Wong (Chinese UN ambassador) was "incredibly important" in arranging the deal and shipment.

Baker: Governor of Alaska helped with the mask shipment, arranging for the plane to land there so the crew could rest.

Trump's big mistake (electorally) may be that he has treated MI so blue it's basically bound to be now.

[Kraken]

BTW something absolutely insane is going on with the Federal government potentially punishing blue states. In this case, MA.

The Republican governor, mind you. Yes, Baker is a RINO, but he has bent over backwards to stay out of national politics and avoid criticizing Trump.

Ah well, MA always suffers under (R) administrations. They don't like science and education, and STEM is what we do here.

[LordMortis]

Trump's big mistake (electorally) may be that he has treated MI so blue it's basically bound to be now.

One would think but we're like aging sheep hobbling to the slaughter. If someone told me when I was 18 what my state would be when I hit 40+, I'da shed my youthful libertarianlike idealistic ways and bugged out of the state then.

On the other hand, how many did he win by? 500 deaths so far and most of them are 50+. CDC isn't publishing ages mortality rates but people are putting the numbers together.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ographics/

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/cor ... nvincible/